The Ottoman Empire

[Irongrip400]

Fellow getbiggers, how do you feel about this?  I'm reading a book about it, and am only about 1/8 through it, but it is very interesting. For a time, the Moslems were on top, defeating the Europeans in battle several times in the early time of the empire. One of the things I read was that the Moslem conquerors let the Christians still practice their faith(at least it is said so in this book, although I believe it skewed), why then does it not work that way now?  Why all the hate?  A Ahmed, I'd like your opinion of this. Also, why did they not change with the times and advance with technology like the rest of the Eurasian area?

[a_ahmed]

The Ottomans were not perfect as they endorsed certain pre-islamic elements of their culture in their rule. The crescent and moon for example is not an islamic symbol but it was a turkish preislamic symbol. However its become adopted by many non muslims and muslims alike. Overall they were just to all. They united Muslims and were the last to hold the flag of the caliphate. They also did some things that were foreign of islam but ultimately with good intentions although weird.

History might have been different if the last caliphate took the bribe of the Jews (15 million whatever money they used then if i recall which was ALOT at the time -- the ottoman empire was in debt -- jews thrive at times with debt and interest throughout all of europe).

The caliphate would not see them and said he would not give up Palestine until his dying breath.

So instead the jews went to the british and funded their war efforts. Europe might have been very different if the Jews were funding the Ottomans and not the British. As is known the rotshchilds got their go from the british in the belfourd agreement.

The evidence of the ottoman being protective of all its inhabitants lays in the fact that ancient churches and synagogues exist and remain. Bosnia is a perfect example of churches, synagogues and mosques all from ancient ottoman times.

The qur'an instructs us to PROTECT the people of the book (christians and jews). So it's not just a matter of co-existing we must protect ahlul-kitab (the people of the book -- bible hence jew and christian)

The problem lays in the fact that that Christians (crusades, colonialists and today american/british/whatever imperialism) prevent that from happening. How can you have peace when there is oppression and no justice? There can never be peace without justice. All the countries have been colonized and then later puppet regimes have been inserted.

The British succeeded in its 'divide and conquer' policy and today the same is being done by the americans and their western 'allies'.

The jewish "Golden age" was under muslim rule. In jewish history books they praise the muslims and the islamic empire as having protected the jews. Again, the christians were the ones hunting jews and exterminating them way before hitler ever did.

These are facts they DO NOT teach you in regular school. I learned NOTHING of the 1000+ islamic empire. I just learned that we christian europeans basically went from dark ages to renessaince. That's it.

Within those 'dark ages' is when the islamic empire grew! Whether it was invention, discoveries and/or developments of mathematics, sciences, information organization, engineering, you name it... it all grew out of the islamic empire and was then taken into the 'renessaince'. The christians were busy burning muslim libraries while muslims were busy writing and translating books and works.

Like I've said in many of my posts. It's hard to progress when you are constantly oppressed, suppressed, dictator by secularist dictators imposed as puppets on these lands, leeching the wealth of the people.

[a_ahmed]

This is a cool site:

http://muslimheritage.com/

Just two small cool excerts:

1202AD    Leonardo Fibonacci (born in Pisa, Italy), who had been taught mathematics in Bejaia (Algeria), publishes "Liber abaci" [Book of the Abacus"], the first European book to use "0" for Zero, and including his famous series 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55... known to us a Fibonacci's Sequence.

http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=218




Europeans always claim they invented everything or discovered everything and never give credit to where they learned it from or where it's been taken from. Muslims documented everything, invented the scientific method, improved upon the old, experimented and proofed right or wrong, etc...

Optics even... muslims get no credit. Medicine, no credit. You have to REALLY REALLY sit your ass down and READ islamic history to know how much the modern world especially the west is to thank the Muslims.

I came to north africa with the mentality thinking all arabs are wild ferocious and dangerous 'the wild arab dog of the desert', all those popeye and other racist cartoons stuck in my mind since a child. The reality is far from these deliberate forged lies. The media is a powerful tool to distort realityt

The primary problem is NOT having ANY material in euro/christian schools on islamic history.

The second and perhaps worse off is 'orientalists' who distort and present the islamic history in a distorted and convulted manner. The whole 'moon god worship' for example is thanks to these idioitic orientalists. When such a belief for example is contrary to the fundementals teachings of islam.

You have to really be careful where you learn from... as there are people with ulterior motives trying to demonize islam and muslims.

[a_ahmed]

Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Quran 3:64]

This is the message throughout the qur'an.

What the qur'an talks about is that we reject falsehood. That we enforce good and prevent evil.

The christians are told not to say trinity because it is a lie (and it is if you read the history of how the modern christianity which has nothing to do with jesus developed -- far more to do with roman paganism than jesus' teachings).

The jews are told to have been chosen by God for their faith, but that they always ridiculed or hassled the prophets sent to them.

The underlying message is that God is merciful and only wants the best for us and we will be judged accordingly on the day of judgement.

The islamic governance system is as such that muslims and non-muslims co-exist. It is true that there is the jizya tax. What it means is basically a tax which is less than 2% of income (non-muslims should be excited considering im paying 30%+ on my taxes). And this grants you the right to own businsses, live your life, own your own land, house, and have the military protection of the muslims. Basically citizenship. The muslims on the other hand pay the zakat, which we dont deem as a tax but in a nutshell it is also a 2% except it goes to the needy. So there is no imbalance here.

The christians always had their christian courts. The jews had their jewish courts. They ruled themselves by their rules under the islamic empire. Resolving their disputes and issues. However history states as fact that these ppl prefered going to the muslim courts as they were more just.

The muslim countries of today are not a caliphate, they are not ruled by islam in its upmost, they are secularist nation states, kingdoms, dictatorships, nothing but a bunch of sell outs. The british did a good job and 'conquer and divide'.

[Fury]

Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Quran 3:64]

This is the message throughout the qur'an.

What the qur'an talks about is that we reject falsehood. That we enforce good and prevent evil.

The christians are told not to say trinity because it is a lie (and it is if you read the history of how the modern christianity which has nothing to do with jesus developed -- far more to do with roman paganism than jesus' teachings).

The jews are told to have been chosen by God for their faith, but that they always ridiculed or hassled the prophets sent to them.

The underlying message is that God is merciful and only wants the best for us and we will be judged accordingly on the day of judgement.

The islamic governance system is as such that muslims and non-muslims co-exist. It is true that there is the jizya tax. What it means is basically a tax which is less than 2% of income (non-muslims should be excited considering im paying 30%+ on my taxes). And this grants you the right to own businsses, live your life, own your own land, house, and have the military protection of the muslims. Basically citizenship. The muslims on the other hand pay the zakat, which we dont deem as a tax but in a nutshell it is also a 2% except it goes to the needy. So there is no imbalance here.

The christians always had their christian courts. The jews had their jewish courts. They ruled themselves by their rules under the islamic empire. Resolving their disputes and issues. However history states as fact that these ppl prefered going to the muslim courts as they were more just.

The muslim countries of today are not a caliphate, they are not ruled by islam in its upmost, they are secularist nation states, kingdoms, dictatorships, nothing but a bunch of sell outs. The british did a good job and 'conquer and divide'.

How nice of you mass-murdering, fifth-century pedophiles to let those lesser folks live under your watchful eyes. Such great guys you are! 

[a_ahmed]

See such stupid remarks only warrant ignorance persisting.

On top of that, this only applies to able men. Children are exempt obviously, women are exempt and elderly are exempt. On top of that if a healthy male is somehow unable to (poor for example) he would be exempt from paying the jizya still while being allowed to freely practice his religion in his own, have his own land/home, have his own business and be protected as a citizen under the caliphate. Although of course having ultimately a business that would mean you would be able to pay

The funny thing is in western countries you never REALLY own the land... the government does... and your house well.. most people are just in debt for 20-40 years as slaves... slaving their way to owning a house in the west.

I don't get it though. As a non muslim id be happy to be paying 2% on all my income than 30-40% as i am now. Not to mention I could own my own land, not be taxed to death if own a business or trade as customs and all that other crap today does.

As a christian i lived in arab countries and there is no tax actually. What you earn is what you earn. What you spend is what you spend. No hidden fees or markups... I think north america is the only place on earth where we have prices in stores which are not the actual prices. Even in europe the price is what it is although the tax is included in the listing.

So in a nutshell, if it was 2% that would be nothing... far more fair than what western countries have indebted themselves to... pure slavery of the willing.

[a_ahmed]

How nice of you mass-murdering, fifth-century pedophiles to let those lesser folks live under your watchful eyes. Such great guys you are!  

Also.. seriously? I don't know where you keep being brainwashed to think this but... Islam was not spread by 'mass murder'. Christianity was.

The proofs are out there against you. I've already given multiple examples. Including that of the Philipines. Including that of the Chinese. Philipines used to be nature worshippers but they embraced Islam while trading with Muslims. They became majority muslim until the christian conquistadors from spain came and forcefully converted everyone to christianity.

Look at Bosnia even. The serbs came and committed genocide trying to eradicate ANY trace of islamic history and of muslims. Burning libraries and museums (in which was also one of the oldest torahs and an old quran), bulldozing once ottoman constructs like the bridge in mostar, which was built by jew, christian and muslim under the tutelage of muslims. And of course ethnic cleansing... destroying mosques and building parking lots over them, raping left and right, evicting the locals and christenizing the villages by renaming them to christian names. Etc... Muslims of Bosnia were Serbs, but they became Muslim although the decline in knowledge of islam was evident. And when it came to reality, the serbs didn't care if muslims didnt know about their own religion they just went out and started killing.

Christianity is not a peace loving religion. It is only rhetoric of the evangelists and missionaries. The reality is that christianity spread by massacres and forceful conversions.

You cannot be a muslim 'by force'. And anyone who says otherwise is an idiot... and has not even read a single verse from the quran... with any understanding.

Sarajevo was once known and dubbed as the Jerusalem of Europe because of the peaceful co-existence of the three faiths under the rule of the muslims... just as was the case with Jerusalem under the rul eof the Muslims. While it was ruled by christians it was nothing but bloodhsed of muslims and jews... EVEN christians were not spared if they chose to live peacefully with Muslims and Jews. When the zionists came to rule (so called jews) look what has been happening for the last how many decades?...

[Irongrip400]

The Ottomans did spread through Europe trying to conquer the Balkan countries, and I see the spread of Islam now, but not in the full on military sense. It is more of a "soft" invasion, where people just keep mixing together until they are too weak to fight for their survival. The book I'm reading is very interesting though, and Murad was a bad dude. I always like reading about people like that, to see how they got to where they were, or the rise and fall of an empire.

[bighead]

ahmed, there are great political boards you could be posting on instead of being goated to [post for laughs. pm me and I  will let you know. assuming you arent synt. lol

[a_ahmed]

meh i like this board and am here for reading on BB related stuff. It's just that when it comes to political issues pertatining to injustices in the world i am very vocal, likewise I am very local when ppl misrepresent Islam and slander islam with lies and  misinformation. It is that much more vigorous for me as I've become Muslim and know the other spectrum and all the lies that are spread against Islam and muslims. Hence me talking and responding on the many subjects as I happen to be here.

[bighead]

meh i like this board and am here for reading on BB related stuff. It's just that when it comes to political issues pertatining to injustices in the world i am very vocal, likewise I am very local when ppl misrepresent Islam and slander islam with lies and  misinformation. It is that much more vigorous for me as I've become Muslim and know the other spectrum and all the lies that are spread against Islam and muslims. Hence me talking and responding on the many subjects as I happen to be here.

  I dont believe you.

[garebear]

ahmed, are Muslims strong victims?

[a_ahmed]

Zionists are the pioneering victims.

Muslims are oppressed world wide. Jews are not oppressed any more but persist that they are oppressed while they are actually oppressing others.

[Irongrip400]

Zionists are the pioneering victims.

Muslims are oppressed world wide. Jews are not oppressed any more but persist that they are oppressed while they are actually oppressing others.

Like blacks?

[garebear]

Zionists are the pioneering victims.

Muslims are oppressed world wide. Jews are not oppressed any more but persist that they are oppressed while they are actually oppressing others.

If Muslims are so strong, why are they capable of being oppressed?

[a_ahmed]

No one said Muslims are strong right now. If that were the case they would uprise against all the secular dictatorships and kick them the hell out. Hard to do that when you're dubbed selectively a terrorist. Remember. Mubarak, a military piece of crap, ruled militarily for 30+ years. Did the US whine of oppression or dictatorship? No they instead gave him yearly millions in weapons support.

Like I said, muslims may be many, may have many different lands and nation, but thanks to the likes of colonialists have been conquered and divided and held under suppression and oppression by dictatorships.

This will of course not go on forever. A hundred years or even two hundred years may seem like a lot to the immediate people, but it is nothing in the scale of history. The US having a 300+ some yea rhistory is nothing as well. The islamic empire ruled for over a 1000 years.

The thing is. Despite not having modern weapons (as the US spends trillions in military reseach and development). Muslims defending their home lands are not losing with ak47s. That alone should make you think. The sad part is the death toll, but like USSR one, the US will crumble due to greed and injustice.

[mass243]

Russia beat asses of Ottomans also.

[a_ahmed]

The once USSR. No more.

[mass243]

The once USSR. No more.

Yes, no more.
But Ruski have shown through its long history, what they once loose, they at some point take back - with interest.


But this thread is about Ottoman Empire.

[Irongrip400]

Yes, no more.
But Ruski have shown through its long history, what they once loose, they at some point take back - with interest.


But this thread is about Ottoman Empire.

Mass, got any good reading about the Russian history?  Something that covers most everything, and is under 600-800 pages.

[OTHstrong]

Fellow getbiggers, how do you feel about this?  I'm reading a book about it, and am only about 1/8 through it, but it is very interesting. For a time, the Moslems were on top, defeating the Europeans in battle several times in the early time of the empire. One of the things I read was that the Moslem conquerors let the Christians still practice their faith (at least it is said so in this book, although I believe it skewed), why then does it not work that way now?  Why all the hate?  A Ahmed, I'd like your opinion of this. Also, why did they not change with the times and advance with technology like the rest of the Eurasian area?

To understand the politics behind the Ottoman Empire you have to understand the history of that region. First of all it's the center of the world smack in the middle where 3 continents meet. second it's the cradle of civilization. The Sumerians, the Egyptians where said to originate from this region, but what makes it most popular where the Trojans, The Trojan wars, and the Greeks conquest. Making it's main language Greek during the mid-evil days.

During Antiquity this region was known as Asia Minor. During end days of the Roman Empire the Romans divided their powers between east and west. This region was the eastern super power of the Roman Empire known as Byzantine and it's capital was Constantinople. Of course the main religion in this region was Christianity but the Romans could not control the Agnostic populations and the Pagans. To add even more diversity this region having had been influenced by the Greeks had incorporated a lot of Mythology as well. The fact that it was the main trade route to Asia from Africa and had a steady flow of Europeans traveling through these lands made it impossible to control, to much diversity and ethnicity in a heavily trade and commerce group of metropolises.

Then came the Sassanid Empire and united all Arabs. An Arab Invasion from Persia through the west occurred of course powered by the influence of Mohammed and the birth of Islam. At least 12 attacks where made on Constantinople by the Muslims  from 700ad to 1453. Finally an ambitious and powerful General invaded, Mehmed the second, in 1453 after cutting off all supplies for 2 years. Although a tough win, nevertheless Mehmed was successful giving full power to the Ottoman Empire and changing the name of the city Constantinople to Istanbul (modern day Turkey) .

Now to answer your question; having conquered the Byzantium Empire and Constantinople, which incorporated over 2 thirds of the European wealth and market, It was in the best interest to keep everything operating as was in order to ensure that the Islamic benefited from the wealth of their new Empire. To dissolve this would result in a economical collapse of monstrous proportions and would most likely have resulted in war.

So the Muslims let the Christians keep their faith cause of financial reasons, cause they wanted no more war, and because there was simply to much diverse ethnic groups to control in that region, they would have been out-numbered between all the commoners, hence a free belief society made more sense.

[Tapeworm]

Great name for a furniture store.

[Irongrip400]

Great post Onetime.

[OTHstrong]

Great post Onetime.

Thank you, you picked a very interesting read. Great thread, can't believe I never seen it earlier   

[Irongrip400]

Thank you, you picked a very interesting read. Great thread, can't believe I never seen it earlier   

The book is a good read. Easy one too. I'm right after the fall of Constantinople now. Funny thing is, I keep reading these books and going backwards. I read Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, which made me read a few world war one books, which made me interested in the ottoman empire. Reading a book on East Prussia now as well, I never even knew it existed.