Author Topic: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?  (Read 3503 times)

Marty Champions

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 36515
am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« on: August 16, 2012, 05:32:36 PM »
Quote
The TrueAdonis

1. Less money circulated in America, less benefit to us all.  Once the money is gone from the United States, its gone from circulation in our country and every lost dollar has the potential to increase inflation.

2. Hiring illegal immigrants under the table devalues American Citizen`s wages because as long as cheap illegal labor can be had, there would be no reason for the business owner to pay anyone a fair/living wage.  This has a great impact on law abiding citizens who want to work, but can`t because some illegal immigrant is just going to steal the job for 3 dollars an hour and then go back to Mexico with the money. We have a standard of living that needs to be upheld and by supporting this type of illegal nonsense, it does nothing but lower it.  Even if they don`t go back to Mexico, it lowers the standard further.

The lower the standard of living goes, inflation increases, dollar devalues, quality of goods and service decrease and we all suffer as a result.

getting cheap underpaid labor is great to keep a buisness thriving and actually makes the buisnesses product cheaper because the cost was cheaper to build the buisness. this creates more competition in buisness, while some buisnesses may use illegals as an advantage for a bigger profit cause they are greedy....while on the other hand other buisnesses using illegals will make there product cost more competitive, this helps the consumer

thus if an unemployed consumer is getting products for cheaper then he doesnt have to work as much

with all this being said we need to give the unemployed consumer a good job in this sitiuation, this is done by allowing the unemployed an easier route to start there own buisness (less regulations) likewise or if they want to work for another buisness  that buisness cant be underpressure from high cost of overhead and regulations in order for the unemployed to be hired
A

The_Hammer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4423
  • President Barack Obama -- 2 Term U.S. President
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 05:39:57 PM »
Two choices in this Presidential Election:

Insourcing Vs. Outsourcing

President Obama has fought to keep industries like Detroit auto manufacturing here in the USA.


&feature=plcp[/youtube]

The True Adonis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 50229
  • Fear is proof of a degenerate mind.
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 05:46:51 PM »
Here I will set it up better with your original question.

help me to understand

whats wrong if a mexican leaves and spends the money in mexico if they helped the american whiteman get the job done FASTER for CHEAPER

cheaper AND faster are good things my bros
1. Less money circulated in America, less benefit to us all.  Once the money is gone from the United States, its gone from circulation in our country and every lost dollar has the potential to increase inflation.

2. Hiring illegal immigrants under the table devalues American Citizen`s wages because as long as cheap illegal labor can be had, there would be no reason for the business owner to pay anyone a fair/living wage.  This has a great impact on law abiding citizens who want to work, but can`t because some illegal immigrant is just going to steal the job for 3 dollars an hour and then go back to Mexico with the money. We have a standard of living that needs to be upheld and by supporting this type of illegal nonsense, it does nothing but lower it.  Even if they don`t go back to Mexico, it lowers the standard further.

The lower the standard of living goes, inflation increases, dollar devalues, quality of goods and service decrease and we all suffer as a result.

bike nut

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4239
  • Desperation is a stinky cologne
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 05:49:11 PM »
Two choices in this Presidential Election:
Insourcing Vs. Outsourcing
President Obama has fought to keep industries like Detroit auto manufacturing here in the USA.
&feature=plcp[/youtube]

Bullshit....Obama used taxpayer money to pay his union constituency. He used stimulus/bailout money to skirt the law to negotiate better deals for the unions and pay them off. Two of the three companies went bankrupt anyway.

He used taxpayer money to try to buy votes - nothing more.

bike nut

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4239
  • Desperation is a stinky cologne
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 05:51:30 PM »
Here I will set it up better with your original question.
1. Less money circulated in America, less benefit to us all.  Once the money is gone from the United States, its gone from circulation in our country and every lost dollar has the potential to increase inflation.

2. Hiring illegal immigrants under the table devalues American Citizen`s wages because as long as cheap illegal labor can be had, there would be no reason for the business owner to pay anyone a fair/living wage.  This has a great impact on law abiding citizens who want to work, but can`t because some illegal immigrant is just going to steal the job for 3 dollars an hour and then go back to Mexico with the money. We have a standard of living that needs to be upheld and by supporting this type of illegal nonsense, it does nothing but lower it.  Even if they don`t go back to Mexico, it lowers the standard further.

The lower the standard of living goes, inflation increases, dollar devalues, quality of goods and service decrease and we all suffer as a result.

Exactly.....Juan Illegal claims 23 dependents on his paycheck, has no taxes withheld, works under a stolen SSN, sends the money home to Mexico. Welcome to the AZ, TX, and CA state economies.

sync pulse

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5698
  • Only be sure always to call it please, 'research'
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 05:52:11 PM »
Yes you are...

If a job can't be made to support a family with children with just one wage earner in the family, that job is a net drain on society...It has to be reengineered  so that it can be made to support a family...

bike nut

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4239
  • Desperation is a stinky cologne
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 05:58:35 PM »
Yes you are...

If a job can't be made to support a family with children with just one wage earner in the family, that job is a net drain on society...It has to be reengineered  so that it can be made to support a family...

Bullshit.

The 23 year old, Occupy Idiot Street losers, need to understand that their "vaunted" web designer skills can be replicated by an 8 year old on an Etch-A-Sketch. So $15/hr is all their worth in an open market. Their distorted sense of self-worth and entitlement won't change that.

sync pulse

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5698
  • Only be sure always to call it please, 'research'
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 06:01:59 PM »
Bullshit.

The 23 year old, Occupy Idiot Street losers, need to understand that their "vaunted" web designer skills can be replicated by an 8 year old on an Etch-A-Sketch. So $15/hr is all their worth in an open market. Their distorted sense of self-worth and entitlement won't change that.

You miss the inexorable logic...the workplace has to be reengineered...if you think about it hard enough perhaps even you can see...

The_Hammer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4423
  • President Barack Obama -- 2 Term U.S. President
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2012, 06:06:59 PM »
Bullshit....Obama used taxpayer money to pay his union constituency. He used stimulus/bailout money to skirt the law to negotiate better deals for the unions and pay them off. Two of the three companies went bankrupt anyway.

He used taxpayer money to try to buy votes - nothing more.


I disagree with your conspiracy theories.

President Obama has worked hard for working class Americans from protecting them from the failed practices of Wall Street to ensuring that Americans can receive affordable healthcare.

We can't afford a Mitt Romney Presidency where the big corporations and Wall Street have all the power.


&feature=plcp[/youtube]

bike nut

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4239
  • Desperation is a stinky cologne
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2012, 06:11:53 PM »
I disagree with your conspiracy theories.
President Obama has worked hard for working class Americans from protecting them from the failed practices of Wall Street to ensuring that Americans can receive affordable healthcare.
We can't afford a Mitt Romney Presidency where the big corporations and Wall Street have all the power.

Horseshit.............

Obama claims to have saved the U.S. auto industry, what he really saved was the industry's dominant union - and weakened capitalism in the process.

Romney once said the auto industry should go bankrupt - the Obama administration claimed they found a better way. The fact is, two of the Big Three automakers did go into bankruptcy under Obama. But it was a bankruptcy with a purpose. Obama not only used taxpayer money to buy control of General Motors and Chrysler, but he also rewrote the rules on the treatment of creditors.

The administration sold its interest in Chrysler in July 2011, racking up a loss of $1.3 billion. It still holds 26% of GM and is riding the stock price down. With GM shares trading at just over $20, the taxpayer's paper losses are at least $16 billion.

The government's tweaking of bankruptcy and tax rules freed GM from the usual limits on carrying pre-bankruptcy losses forward. Curt Levey, executive director of the conservative legal group Committee for Justice, estimates that this special tax break adds $18 billion to the cost of the GM deal.

Also, the bailouts would have cost much less if not for the favored treatment given to the United Auto Workers. According to analysis by the Heritage Foundation's James Sherk and George Mason University law professor Todd Zywicky, the UAW giveaways were worth about $26 billion.

Most of this sum came in payouts - stock and notes - to settle debts owed by GM and Chrysler to a union's Voluntary Employee Beneficiary Association, an entity set up to cover retiree health care costs. VEBA fared much better than other unsecured creditors and even those (at Chrysler) with asset-backed debt.

The administration also added to taxpayers' costs by refusing to push for significant changes in compensation to current UAW employees.

Bankruptcy law gives firms the right to renegotiate union contracts. Sherk and Zywicky argue that the failure to trim GM's labor costs to something like market levels has depressed profit and taken (by their estimate) $4 billion off the company's stock value.

These are just the costs that can be identified today. In the longer run, the Obama administration has sent a chilling message about the rule of law and the sanctity of contracts - both basic to a free market.

It's telling anyone who invests in or lends to a business that, should politics dictate, it would deny it equal treatment.

Crony capitalism is getting well-deserved criticism this election year, and there was a strong element of it in the bailout of auto companies and unions.

The deliberate tilting of the scales toward the dominant auto union took cronyism to an even more destructive level, because it undermined capitalism itself.

The Obama team may claim to have saved iconic American businesses.

But taking over any company to give labor a leg up on capital - call it crony socialism if you will - sets a precedent that threatens businesses of all kinds.

littledumbells

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 676
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2012, 06:16:32 PM »
Two choices in this Presidential Election:

Insourcing Vs. Outsourcing

President Obama has fought to keep industries like Detroit auto manufacturing here in the USA.


&feature=plcp[/youtube]

 Billions of dollars and GM stock is in the crapper. When does the next bail out come?

flipper5470

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1401
  • Getbig!
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2012, 06:27:13 PM »
And Obama completely fucked GM bondholders in the process.  They were not given the equitable treatment they were due under law...they got nowhere near the deal the unions got.

The_Hammer

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4423
  • President Barack Obama -- 2 Term U.S. President
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2012, 06:36:04 PM »
The working class are the backbone of this great nation.

President Obama believes that you grow the economy from the middle - out.

If the middle class prosper, everyone will prosper!


It's time to stand up to those who cut taxes to the ultra wealthy and burden the middle class with taxes!

I don't know about all of you, but I'm no millionaire.

Us working class folks don't fit into Mitt Romney's Plan!





POB

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3379
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2012, 06:48:40 PM »
Two choices in this Presidential Election:

Insourcing Vs. Outsourcing

President Obama has fought to keep industries like Detroit auto manufacturing here in the USA.


&feature=plcp[/youtube]

I hate to agree with anything Obama, but I'm afraid he's best for most. Unless you're worth a fortune like Romney you will not benefit from putting him in power...

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2012, 06:51:27 PM »
Short answer.. yes and no. cheaper goods but lower wages.




long answer..


Generally speaking, no Human life is more valuable than anyother Human life.

An American is not more valuable than a Mexican. A Russian no more valuable than a South African.

Thinking in terms of Nationalism, valuing the prosperity of the people in your own country above the prosperity of people in the rest of the world, is.. undesireable.

While an argument can be made that protectionist policies are necessary to sustain our economy and global philanthropy must only come after we make sure to keep ourselves afloat; as we are only able to help others when we can help ourself.

I feel we are FAR beyond that point.. for a few reasons. The entire globe is dependant on American prosperity. No single country would ever want the dollar to fail, because that would cause their domestic currency to fail as well. So untill America is back in a position to dominate the world, we will continue to dominate the world.  :D  It may not be in our best interest, if we think like nationalists, to help workers from other countries. whether through immigration or free trade or foreign aid or nation building. however, when we think like human beings (aka globalists), we see the broader picture and are willing to make some domestic sacrifices for the good of all man kind.

 ;)

pluck

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2001
  • Getbig!
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2012, 07:00:40 PM »
Also the illegals Who work under the table without paying taxes use hospitals, schools, roads, court system without paying into it via taxes.

TrueGrit

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 15192
  • Big dude...all the way big dude.
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 07:01:44 PM »
Falcon, time for a new vid.
O

Voice of Doom

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3644
  • Everything is under control.
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2012, 07:08:08 PM »
Remove the minimum wage and remove the incentive to hire illegal workers.  Let the market dictate what a job pays and let people earn what they're actually worth.
The greatest period of American growth happened without an income tax, social security, Federal Reserve bank or a minimum wage.  

Deflation = falling prices to match wages.  Falling prices means the dollar buys more and invites investment from other countries.

Marty Champions

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 36515
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2012, 07:09:49 PM »
but its the illegals that do the hard neegul jobs that neeguls and whites dont do

so we need more illegals to help build the infrastructure?

most neeguls get angry if you nit pick them about there low quality work and whites want too much money
A

Marty Champions

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 36515
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2012, 07:14:13 PM »
but its the illegals that do the hard neegul jobs that neeguls and whites dont do

so we need more illegals to help build the infrastructure?

most neeguls get angry if you nit pick them about there low quality work and whites want too much money
neeguls dont like to work in the sun, if they do they demand jermohaime and jomriquiene to tag along and bullshit around talking about "DA GAME" and "Whoem dem white hoes be wridin wid?"

Whites like Larry and Michael want 20 dollars an hour but eat too much red meat and smoke too many cigarettes to do 20 dollars of good work and hour. only the under 30 whites can handle hard work regardless of bad eating habits but then start failing miserably as they get older looking for meth to work the hours required
A

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2012, 09:31:44 PM »
Remove the minimum wage and remove the incentive to hire illegal workers.  Let the market dictate what a job pays and let people earn what they're actually worth.
The greatest period of American growth happened without an income tax, social security, Federal Reserve bank or a minimum wage.  

Deflation = falling prices to match wages.  Falling prices means the dollar buys more and invites investment from other countries.

1. the greatest period of growth was dictated by the greatest period in innovations relating to manufacturing and trade. weve had a manufacturing based economy and access to global for trade for quite a while now. growth is going to be slow, outside of technological advances that dont increase GDP so much as standard of living.  that growth didnt happen because of low taxes, didnt happen because there wasnt a minimum wage, damn sure didnt happen because we didnt have a federal reserve bank.  it happened because we went from an isolated domestic agricultural economy to a manufacturing, world trading economy.


2/ removing the minimum wage so employees are paid what theyre worth sounds nice in theory. but i have two issues for you, one involving the plausability of geting u.s. citizens to accept jobs that pay what illegals are paid, the second has to do with the idea that in such a system both the employee an the employer would have equal bargaining power so that the fair price is actually paid. when the owners of the means of production control all the wealth, they can decide to offer 2 dollars an hour for a job that is worth 10.. and they have the wealth to sit back and let production stand still untill someone finally begrudgingly accepts the pay that is far less than what te job is actually worth. for these reasons your theory is null.

POB

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3379
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2012, 09:37:04 PM »
Putting stiff fines on Employers that hire them would be a good start to fix the problem

doison

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3448
  • Rum Ham
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2012, 09:38:18 PM »
1. the greatest period of growth was dictated by the greatest period in innovations relating to manufacturing and trade. weve had a manufacturing based economy and access to global for trade for quite a while now. growth is going to be slow, outside of technological advances that dont increase GDP so much as standard of living.  that growth didnt happen because of low taxes, didnt happen because there wasnt a minimum wage, damn sure didnt happen because we didnt have a federal reserve bank. 


2/ removing the minimum wage so employees are paid what theyre worth sounds nice in theory. but i have two issues for you, one involving the plausability of geting u.s. citizens to accept jobs that pay what illegals are paid, the second has to do with the idea that in such a system both the employee an the employer would have equal bargaining power so that the fair price is actually paid. when the owners of the means of production control all the wealth, they can decide to offer 2 dollars an hour for a job that is worth 10.. and they have the wealth to sit back and let production stand still untill someone finally begrudgingly accepts the pay that is far less than what te job is actually worth. for these reasons your theory is null.

You make any new "progress" the last few hours, fuckface? 

Y

Voice of Doom

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3644
  • Everything is under control.
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2012, 02:39:43 PM »
1. the greatest period of growth was dictated by the greatest period in innovations relating to manufacturing and trade. weve had a manufacturing based economy and access to global for trade for quite a while now. growth is going to be slow, outside of technological advances that dont increase GDP so much as standard of living.  that growth didnt happen because of low taxes, didnt happen because there wasnt a minimum wage, damn sure didnt happen because we didnt have a federal reserve bank.  it happened because we went from an isolated domestic agricultural economy to a manufacturing, world trading economy.


2/ removing the minimum wage so employees are paid what theyre worth sounds nice in theory. but i have two issues for you, one involving the plausability of geting u.s. citizens to accept jobs that pay what illegals are paid, the second has to do with the idea that in such a system both the employee an the employer would have equal bargaining power so that the fair price is actually paid. when the owners of the means of production control all the wealth, they can decide to offer 2 dollars an hour for a job that is worth 10.. and they have the wealth to sit back and let production stand still untill someone finally begrudgingly accepts the pay that is far less than what te job is actually worth. for these reasons your theory is null.

  A job is worth what the employer and the worker negotiate.  If a worker will take that job at $2/hour then the job is worth $2/hour.   If an employer can't get anyone to take the job till they offer $4/hour than the job is worth $4/hour.  It's called the Wage Discovery Mechanism.  When it's disrupted by government decrees and mandates like the minimum wage it skews the market for labor pool.  Employers then go "off shore" to find another labor pool.  Just like when you try to find the best deal for your dollar.

 Business is about maximizing output while minimizing input.  And on a planet of finite resources you better be damn glad it functions that way.  That difference equals profits and products which provides capital for more jobs, raises and training to staff that helped achieve that efficiency.

There is no "getting US citizens to accept jobs".  The job exists, you either want to work or you dont.  Take away entitlements and watch how quickly a hungry man will find a job and start saving for a better life at $2/hour.  The illegals have proved that.
 
Want to earn more?  Then increase your value to your employer and the job market.  "Equal bargaining power" is a collectivist fairy tale.  The total liability to providing a job, the total risk for spending capital lies with the person providing the capital.  Why should a worker have "equal" bargaining power?  What do they risk in the transaction?  Your skills and talents are what you bring to the table and, while valuable, have power only in relation to establishing a volutary contract with the employer.  "Equal" bargaining power is the talk of slaves.  Want "equal" footing?  Save your money and invest your own capital in providing jobs and creating a product.  Then come back and let us know how "equal" everyone's input to your money should be. ::)

America has a negative savings rate.  The average American household has $41,000 in debt because it has assumed an unsustainable "way of life".  When wages are reset, people will choose to save more and reduce debt.  Commodity prices will fall accordingly because business needs to sell to a more discerning and cost conscious buyer.  Lower prices means business has to increase staff training and invest in technological advances to maintain a profit.  Both of those options benefit humanity by making the existing labor pool more educated AND using resources more efficiently.

Your theory fails because it moralizes the greed of the worker as superior to the greed of the owner.  At the end of the day it's ALL greed but my system maximizes liberty by allowing the market (voluntary human interaction) to set rates.  You theory maximizes central planning (government force) to set the rates.  That's just fascism masked behind "populace" morality...and it will fail like every other tyranny in history, comrade.

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: am i wrong about cheap labor helping out america?
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2012, 09:54:26 PM »
  A job is worth what the employer and the worker negotiate.  If a worker will take that job at $2/hour then the job is worth $2/hour.   If an employer can't get anyone to take the job till they offer $4/hour than the job is worth $4/hour.  It's called the Wage Discovery Mechanism.  When it's disrupted by government decrees and mandates like the minimum wage it skews the market for labor pool.  Employers then go "off shore" to find another labor pool.  Just like when you try to find the best deal for your dollar.

 Business is about maximizing output while minimizing input.  And on a planet of finite resources you better be damn glad it functions that way.  That difference equals profits and products which provides capital for more jobs, raises and training to staff that helped achieve that efficiency.

There is no "getting US citizens to accept jobs".  The job exists, you either want to work or you dont.  Take away entitlements and watch how quickly a hungry man will find a job and start saving for a better life at $2/hour.  The illegals have proved that.
 
Want to earn more?  Then increase your value to your employer and the job market.  "Equal bargaining power" is a collectivist fairy tale.  The total liability to providing a job, the total risk for spending capital lies with the person providing the capital.  Why should a worker have "equal" bargaining power?  What do they risk in the transaction?  Your skills and talents are what you bring to the table and, while valuable, have power only in relation to establishing a volutary contract with the employer.  "Equal" bargaining power is the talk of slaves.  Want "equal" footing?  Save your money and invest your own capital in providing jobs and creating a product.  Then come back and let us know how "equal" everyone's input to your money should be. ::)

America has a negative savings rate.  The average American household has $41,000 in debt because it has assumed an unsustainable "way of life".  When wages are reset, people will choose to save more and reduce debt.  Commodity prices will fall accordingly because business needs to sell to a more discerning and cost conscious buyer.  Lower prices means business has to increase staff training and invest in technological advances to maintain a profit.  Both of those options benefit humanity by making the existing labor pool more educated AND using resources more efficiently.

Your theory fails because it moralizes the greed of the worker as superior to the greed of the owner.  At the end of the day it's ALL greed but my system maximizes liberty by allowing the market (voluntary human interaction) to set rates.  You theory maximizes central planning (government force) to set the rates.  That's just fascism masked behind "populace" morality...and it will fail like every other tyranny in history, comrade.

i dont disagree. good post. except for your ass kissing of the wealthy (your sentiment about the "risks" of investing money)


You make any new "progress" the last few hours, fuckface? 


yup