Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
July 30, 2014, 10:36:16 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: manic depressive on steroids  (Read 4102 times)
manicstezzo
Getbig II
**
Posts: 37


Getbig!


View Profile
« on: November 17, 2005, 09:57:39 PM »

Hey guys. I have never taken steroids. I'm 33 and have been lifting for over 15 years. I am also manic depressive. I heard from someone that if you are manic depressive you should'nt even think about the juice. I do take anti depressants and pretty much feel good all the time.  Would the juice make it worse. Thanks!!
Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2005, 10:10:46 PM »

Hey guys. I have never taken steroids. I'm 33 and have been lifting for over 15 years. I am also manic depressive. I heard from someone that if you are manic depressive you should'nt even think about the juice. I do take anti depressants and pretty much feel good all the time.  Would the juice make it worse. Thanks!!

Coming off a cycle, your body will be depressed due to the lack of hormones, thereby leading you in to a mental depression.  It's not a good idea, IMO......unless you are prepared to stay on HRT forever.







DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
Luv2Hurt
Competitors II
Getbig V
******
Gender: Female
Posts: 6044



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2005, 05:53:21 AM »

It seems like lots of people are on SSRI meds now a days.  I'm sure there has to be someone who has done this.  Manic depression sounds more severe than most that take these SSRI meds. you need to be carefull it may increase your depression for a while.  If you do the proper PCT that will help keep it to a minimum.

........"Is a frustrating mess"
Report to moderator   Logged
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 07:04:02 AM »

Hey guys. I have never taken steroids. I'm 33 and have been lifting for over 15 years. I am also manic depressive. I heard from someone that if you are manic depressive you should'nt even think about the juice. I do take anti depressants and pretty much feel good all the time.  Would the juice make it worse. Thanks!!

Do you know the underlying cause(s) for your condition?

I was diagnosed with major depression and generalized anxiety disorder four years ago (with no underlying cause determined) and was prescribed Paxil and Klonopin.

I was also on an anti-convulsant (Dilantin) for a seizure disorder.  This combination obliterated my testosterone levels to (219 ng/DL) - which is, of course, extremely low.

Upon consulting with an endocrinologist, I was prescribed HRT (Androgel 5mg) in July 2005 and have sinced restored my T level to the 600 range.

Now, my depression and anxiety are gone.  I no longer need Paxil or Klonopin - and perhaps the best part is my strength and libido have improved dramatically.  Bring on the gains...

Report to moderator   Logged
manicstezzo
Getbig II
**
Posts: 37


Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2005, 09:56:47 AM »

Thanks for the input guys. I also had pretty bad anxiety before I started the anti depressants. The only thing I am taking now is 20 mg [half a pill] of celexa. Actually the thing I was worrying about was the mania. When I get manic sometimes it is actually a huge high. Sometimes euphoric. I was wondering about the increased aggression from steroids, as well as the depression. The pills have killed my sex drive. Do these pills actually lower testosterone. I don't want to go back on lithium because of the small weight gain. It's not much, but I still did'nt want those couple extra pounds. Oh, as far as the underlying cause, I'm not really sure. I have always been a loner and uncomfortable around people, as long as I can remember. I am alot better around people now, though. Also, The man congrats on getting off the meds! Thanks!
Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 10:54:04 AM »

Thanks for the input guys. I also had pretty bad anxiety before I started the anti depressants. The only thing I am taking now is 20 mg [half a pill] of celexa. Actually the thing I was worrying about was the mania. When I get manic sometimes it is actually a huge high. Sometimes euphoric. I was wondering about the increased aggression from steroids, as well as the depression. The pills have killed my sex drive. Do these pills actually lower testosterone. I don't want to go back on lithium because of the small weight gain. It's not much, but I still did'nt want those couple extra pounds. Oh, as far as the underlying cause, I'm not really sure. I have always been a loner and uncomfortable around people, as long as I can remember. I am alot better around people now, though. Also, The man congrats on getting off the meds! Thanks!

Celexa is another SSRI.  It's not that they lower testosterone, but they lower the aggression that you have from taking them.  There is no way to counter this side that I know of.  Do you want your mental health or gains in the gym?

Try to get off the meds and deal with your bi-polar on your own if you can.





DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 11:19:41 AM »

Thanks for the input guys. I also had pretty bad anxiety before I started the anti depressants. The only thing I am taking now is 20 mg [half a pill] of celexa. Actually the thing I was worrying about was the mania. When I get manic sometimes it is actually a huge high. Sometimes euphoric. I was wondering about the increased aggression from steroids, as well as the depression. The pills have killed my sex drive. Do these pills actually lower testosterone. I don't want to go back on lithium because of the small weight gain. It's not much, but I still did'nt want those couple extra pounds. Oh, as far as the underlying cause, I'm not really sure. I have always been a loner and uncomfortable around people, as long as I can remember. I am alot better around people now, though. Also, The man congrats on getting off the meds! Thanks!

Thanks bro. 

Cognitive Behavorial Therapy is also an effective method of dealing with and overcoming depression/anxiety.
Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2005, 10:54:21 PM »

Cognitive Behavorial Therapy is also an effective method of dealing with and overcoming depression/anxiety.

Easier said than done.......esp with bi-polar cases.

That's like telling an alcoholic to cure his disease with a 12 step program.

Sounds great.......until it's put in practice.

I'd like to see if Lil' Stezzo can find his own coping mechanism to deal with his bi-polar, because in the end that is what he will need to do......unless he wants to be sedated with SSRI's for his entire life.


DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
mem
Getbig III
***
Gender: Male
Posts: 490

lifetime athlete


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2005, 07:53:58 AM »


- - Upon consulting with an endocrinologist, I was prescribed HRT (Androgel 5mg) in July 2005 and have sinced restored my T level to the 600 range. - -


- - Sorry NOT meaning to hijack the thread - -

I am a big proponent of HRT (at 45 yo) and have recommended to a handful of
friends my age, that I honestly feel could benefit from exogenous test usage
(although they are not BB) they could be in need for restorative or balancing
effect. These people shudder at the notion of using ANY needles. I understand this . . .

My natural levels measured at 585 (nomal/baseline/off-cycle) at 43 years old,
when I had my GP test mine, he wrinkled his nose at my request for HRT
several years back. I went another route (not through him).

My question to you is specific to (your actual) use. It would seem you would have
to smear it on like hand cream  Wink (rather than a simple dab of) to get sufficient
quantities into your system. Can you respond / tell me a little more about how
you use it? So that I have better understnding in order to help or recommend
this (topical) mode of use.

Amount of cream, frequency of dosing, etc.

PM me if you prefer - as this IS somewhat more of a private matter - which I respect . . .

Mike

I really appreciate the honesty with which people share (openly talk about)
these type of matters at this great site. I have said (highly personal) sh!t
that I cannot believe . . . I love it!!!
Report to moderator   Logged

1 life 1 liver
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2005, 08:02:18 AM »

Upon consulting with an endocrinologist, I was prescribed HRT (Androgel 5mg) in July 2005 and have sinced restored my T level to the 600 range.

theman, I don't mean to crip on yo' set, but Androgel is probably the worst medication to use for HRT.

If you had an endocrinologist writing your scripts, you should have had him write for:

Halotestin
Deca
Testosterone


A combination of those.....

Androgel is inefficient and child's play.....I hope you didn't have a co-pay for that.

I never advocate Androgel......unless maybe it was given away free...... Roll Eyes





DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
robmeister
Guest
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2005, 07:15:09 PM »

WHO TOLD YOU YOU WERE MANIC DEPRESSIVE?! NO OFFENSE DUDE, BUT ALOT OF ASSHOLE DOCTORS OUT THERE LABEL PEOPLE WITH CERTAIN SHIT JUST SO THEY CAN GET AN INSURANCE COMPANY TO COVER THE COST OF IT! THAT'S WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE "BI-POLAR", AND THEY REALLY AREN'T!!! AND, BY THE WAY, A 12 STEP PROGRAM WORKS FINE FOR AN ALCOHOLIC, BUT ONLY IF HE/SHE IS WILLING TO FOLLOW IT. ( I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, AND HAVE BEEN SOBER FOR 11 YEARS!) ASK DR. BOB AND BILL W. ! THEY FOUNDED THE PROGRAM OF A.A.  I'M SORRY, BUT I GET   Angry  WHEN PEOPLE BAD-MOUTH A.A.!
Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2005, 10:56:52 PM »

WHO TOLD YOU YOU WERE MANIC DEPRESSIVE?! NO OFFENSE DUDE, BUT ALOT OF ASSHOLE DOCTORS OUT THERE LABEL PEOPLE WITH CERTAIN SHIT JUST SO THEY CAN GET AN INSURANCE COMPANY TO COVER THE COST OF IT! THAT'S WHY SOME PEOPLE ARE "BI-POLAR", AND THEY REALLY AREN'T!!! AND, BY THE WAY, A 12 STEP PROGRAM WORKS FINE FOR AN ALCOHOLIC, BUT ONLY IF HE/SHE IS WILLING TO FOLLOW IT. ( I HAPPEN TO BE ONE, AND HAVE BEEN SOBER FOR 11 YEARS!) ASK DR. BOB AND BILL W. ! THEY FOUNDED THE PROGRAM OF A.A.  I'M SORRY, BUT I GET   Angry  WHEN PEOPLE BAD-MOUTH A.A.!

Even if you are ANGRY, you don't need to use ALL CAPS, Robert.

Settle down.




DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2005, 06:47:15 AM »

- - Sorry NOT meaning to hijack the thread - -

I am a big proponent of HRT (at 45 yo) and have recommended to a handful of
friends my age, that I honestly feel could benefit from exogenous test usage
(although they are not BB) they could be in need for restorative or balancing
effect. These people shudder at the notion of using ANY needles. I understand this . . .

My natural levels measured at 585 (nomal/baseline/off-cycle) at 43 years old,
when I had my GP test mine, he wrinkled his nose at my request for HRT
several years back. I went another route (not through him).

My question to you is specific to (your actual) use. It would seem you would have
to smear it on like hand cream  Wink (rather than a simple dab of) to get sufficient
quantities into your system. Can you respond / tell me a little more about how
you use it? So that I have better understnding in order to help or recommend
this (topical) mode of use.

Amount of cream, frequency of dosing, etc.

PM me if you prefer - as this IS somewhat more of a private matter - which I respect . . .

Mike

I really appreciate to honesty with which people share (openly talk about)
these type of matters at this great site. I have said (highly personal) sh!t
that I cannot believe . . . I love it!!!


No problem Mike.

Upon showering in the AM - I place approximately 1/2 of the packet onto each palm and carefully apply to upper arms, shoulders and abdomen - very much like a cream or lotion.

However, because it is an alcohol based gel - it dries much quicker (typically under a minute).

This is done each and every morning.  Each packet contains 50 mg testosterone (of which approximately 10% is absorbed into the skin and ultimately into the bloodstream).

There are some drawbacks obviously - you must wash hands immediately after application - and also don clothes over the application area - less you spread testosterone to others.  I have to do this so as not to create issues for my wife.  Intimacy is a bit more of a challenge - but nothing a shower can't solve...

I'll address Division's concerned in another post.

Here's the website for more specific details http://www.androgel.com

Good Luck.


Report to moderator   Logged
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2005, 06:54:07 AM »

theman, I don't mean to crip on yo' set, but Androgel is probably the worst medication to use for HRT.

If you had an endocrinologist writing your scripts, you should have had him write for:

Halotestin
Deca
Testosterone


A combination of those.....

Androgel is inefficient and child's play.....I hope you didn't have a co-pay for that.

I never advocate Androgel......unless maybe it was given away free...... Roll Eyes





DIV

Hey DIV:

Can you please explain why you do not advocate Andogel?

While I haven't experienced too many issues thus far (other than those cited above) - I have heard that Androgel can lose it's "kick" over time.  Perhaps this has to do with excess DHT/estrogen conversion?

Many people I have spoken to ultimately went to injection - as you suggest.

Thanks bro.

CJ
Report to moderator   Logged
manicstezzo
Getbig II
**
Posts: 37


Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2005, 02:30:52 PM »

Robmeister,

I know exactly what you mean about some of these doctors. They just care about lining their pockets. I knew something was wrong and I figured it was manic depression, so I read about it and no lie, I had every symptom. I went through alot of brutal stuff. I feel great now on the anti depressants. Actually the drug does'nt inhibit my workouts at all. In fact I am alot happier, so it is easier to get myself motivated. It's a good thing I have insurance, though because these head doctors are expensive!
Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2005, 06:29:36 PM »

Can you please explain why you do not advocate Andogel?

While I haven't experienced too many issues thus far (other than those cited above) - I have heard that Androgel can lose it's "kick" over time.  Perhaps this has to do with excess DHT/estrogen conversion?

Many people I have spoken to ultimately went to injection - as you suggest.

Androgel is a weak HRT option.

A small percentage of the actual Test hits you, and that is inefficient and a waste.

I don't the technical details of why it has diminishing returns, mainly because I don't even consider Androgel when I think of AAS.

It's a gimmick for people who are too scared for needles or those who find AAS too intrusive.

BottomeLine:  Androgel to my nuts, only made my Doc's wallet fatter......




DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2005, 01:56:57 PM »

Androgel is a weak HRT option.

A small percentage of the actual Test hits you, and that is inefficient and a waste.

I don't the technical details of why it has diminishing returns, mainly because I don't even consider Androgel when I think of AAS.

It's a gimmick for people who are too scared for needles or those who find AAS too intrusive.

BottomeLine:  Androgel to my nuts, only made my Doc's wallet fatter......




DIV

I appreciate the input, DIV.  Fortunately, my co-pay is only $9 per month.

Still, if at some point Androgel becomes ineffective, I have no problem whatsoever switching to injections.  Hell, I did that 2x a week for years with allergy shots...

CJ



Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2005, 02:08:47 PM »

I appreciate the input, DIV.  Fortunately, my co-pay is only $9 per month.

Still, if at some point Androgel becomes ineffective, I have no problem whatsoever switching to injections.  Hell, I did that 2x a week for years with allergy shots...

What is the co-pay for injections?




DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2005, 02:15:55 PM »

What is the co-pay for injections?




DIV

I'm not entirely sure - but I suspect they would also be $9 a month (assuming I'm given a monthly script).

$2 if generic LOL
Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2005, 09:07:10 PM »

I'm not entirely sure - but I suspect they would also be $9 a month (assuming I'm given a monthly script).

$2 if generic LOL

If it's the same copay switch to injectibles, bro.

Stop pussyfooting around, man

What are you waiting for?




DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2005, 06:47:00 AM »

If it's the same copay switch to injectibles, bro.

Stop pussyfooting around, man

What are you waiting for?




DIV

With all due respect, my known affinity for Schedule I, II, III, IV Controlled Substances keeps me in check  Tongue

I am interested to see, however, what pushing my T levels towards the top of the physiological range will do - both in terms of lifting & my overall mood.  I suspect there will be some (abeit subtle) improvements.

CJ
Report to moderator   Logged
DIVISION
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 16280


Bless me please, father.....


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2005, 10:31:48 AM »

With all due respect, my known affinity for Schedule I, II, III, IV Controlled Substances keeps me in check  Tongue

In that case, I understand.




DIV
Report to moderator   Logged

I'm a ghost in these killing fields...
robmeister
Guest
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2005, 08:53:27 PM »

 Sad  sorry bros, i get carried away sometimes! forgive me if i sound like i wanna rip someones head off. (it's an over rush of adrenaline!)  Cool
Report to moderator   Logged
Alison
Getbig III
***
Gender: Female
Posts: 523


Boop oop a doop


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2005, 12:05:53 PM »

Its not advised because the use of some steroids will exagerate moods.  So if you were an extra happy fellow you might be so darn happy.  Same as if you were a mean SOB you might become a meaner SOB.

A depressed person would most likely become even more depressed.
Report to moderator   Logged

.....Ally
theman
Getbig II
**
Posts: 59

Getbig!


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2005, 01:40:39 PM »

Its not advised because the use of some steroids will exagerate moods.  So if you were an extra happy fellow you might be so darn happy.  Same as if you were a mean SOB you might become a meaner SOB.

A depressed person would most likely become even more depressed.

Harrison Pope, a professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, was looking for a few good men with severe depression and low levels of testosterone.

In the 1940s, experiments showed that major depression can be relieved by injecting testosterone into men with low levels of that hormone. The treatment never caught on because the shots are painful, and effective antidepressant drugs started coming to market. More recently, however, testosterone patches and gels became available. In June 2000, the United States Food and Drug Administration approved a new form of gel for treating muscle loss, decreased sex drive, lack of energy, and other symptoms of so-called hypogonadism, or underactivity of the testes.

Pope wondered if the gel might also help males with the combination of low testosterone and depression not treated successfully with drugs. He asked for and received a grant from Unimed Pharmaceuticals Corp., which makes a testosterone supplement known as AndroGel.

The first question to answer was how frequently low testosterone occurs in American men with depression that cannot be controlled with drugs. "I requested enough money to screen 150 subjects with the hope of finding about 20 who fit that description," Pope recalls. "To my astonishment, it turned out to be no problem at all."

Out of the first 56 men screened, Pope and his colleagues found 24 who had both low spirits and low levels of the hormone. That's more than 40 percent. "I never would have guessed that the prevalence of low testosterone levels would be so great in men not responding to antidepressant drugs," Pope comments.

At McLean Hospital, a private psychiatric facility affiliated with Harvard Medical School, 12 men received small packets containing 2.5 grams of AndroGel. Another 10 subjects received identical packets containing a dummy, or placebo substance. By the end of the experiment, Pope found a significant improvement in mood among those taking testosterone compared with those using the dummy rub.

Ten of the 12 men on the active gel completed the full eight-week study. Three showed almost no improvement, and four experienced only modest relief. However, three enjoyed "striking, dramatic gains," Pope notes. "While this was a very small study, the results clearly justify larger studies to explore the benefits and possible risks of testosterone replacement therapy for men with low levels of the hormone who find antidepressants ineffective."

More muscle, less fat

How many men might that be? Certainly more than everyone thought before the researchers found how common low testosterone levels are in depressed males not being helped sufficiently by the drugs they take.

According to the team's report in the Jan. 1, 2003, issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry, in any given year 8 percent of American men over 30 years old will experience an episode of major depression. A substantial minority of these men will get only partial help, or none at all, from popular antidepressants. "If this refractory subgroup exhibits a 43 percent prevalence of low testosterone levels, as found in our study," notes Pope's report, "then hundreds of thousands of men in a given year might be candidates for further trials of the supplements. Given the size of this population, together with the increased availability and convenience of testosterone gels, it would seem important to assess carefully the benefits and risks of adding hormone replacement to antidepressant drugs."

Normal men who take testosterone usually add muscle and lose fat. That occurred among those in the Harvard study, including subjects whose depression was not reduced. "One man, who got no psychiatric benefit at all, gained about 15 pounds of muscle mass and lost about 8 pounds of fat," Pope notes.

Such results raise the issue of whether the supplements aid only the physical symptoms of depression such as loss of energy, libido, and appetite. To address that, Pope's group analyzed the responses of those who took the testosterone to a battery of psychological tests They found higher moods, less guilt and anxiety, and a decrease of suicidal thoughts. "These analyses suggest that the hormone can cause improvements in both the mind and body," Pope says.

Evidence also exists that some women may be helped by testosterone supplements. Other studies hint that postmenopausal women, and those who have had their ovaries removed surgically, may reap some benefits in terms of improved mood and energy. But to avoid excess growth of hair, increased muscle mass, and other masculine side effects, doses would have to be much lower than those given to men.

"It's something we should explore in the future," Pope maintains.

Prostate cancer risk?

Men who participated in the study have been referred back to their doctors. Those who did well on the gel have to decide whether to keep using it, a decision not without risk. The most alarming possibility involves prostate cancer. Hypogonadal men taking testosterone supplements for a year or two don't exhibit an increased risk for the disease. But younger men who take the hormone for decades to fight off depression (or build their muscles) might be at greater risk.

Pope compares the situation to recent upsetting findings about estrogen replacement therapy in women, which conclude that long-term risks of using the hormones might outweigh benefits. Such risks include heart disease, breast, and ovarian cancer. Presently, there's no good evidence that decades-long use of testosterone increases a man's risk of prostate cancer, but that still doesn't prove that it's harmless.

"We don't know exactly how testosterone reduces depression when antidepressants fail, nor do we know how high levels of the hormone might elevate cancer risk," Pope points out. Until more information becomes available, men face a tough choice.

The three men who did so strikingly well with the testosterone gel might gladly accept a small risk of cancer, if such a risk exists. But those who reaped only modest benefit, or who just want to fuel a waxing sex drive or enjoy more energy and muscle, might not think the risk, no matter how phantom, is worth it.

"You can't commit someone to taking testosterone for tens of years without a lot of thought and discussion," Pope notes. "In the end it comes down to an individual decision between a man and his doctor."

Report to moderator   Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.16 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!