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Author Topic: Lee Haney versus the current crop  (Read 10566 times)
Figo
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« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2013, 08:29:35 AM »

I was just going to respond to the guy above who said Kai/Phil in '91 wouldn't go pro.

You are absolutely correct.  People freaked the f out when Yates stepped on the scene.  It was something completey different than what they were used to, and it was rewared heavily.   Same thing would happen if it was Kai/Heath.

And I actually liked BB back then.  Haney was awesome.  But let's not kid ouselves that even Lee at his best would be lost on stage today.

Haney at his best would not feature today, I agree

But, take kai/phill to 1988 or bring haney to 2013, and with an even playing field, the guy with the best structure, response and genes wins

Yes Haney had arms overshadowed by his torso, but now we have synthol, and new methods

Would kai or phil have delts and arms as big as their heads in the late 80s? I don't think so
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« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2013, 08:34:45 AM »

Of course they would, can't compare like you said

But

If you take them back in time, and all things being equal, would they look the same?

probably not...they would be smaller, but would have the better crispness that guys had pre-insulin abuse and using cleaner gear.

flip it yet again...LOL...Haney in today's day is bigger and has a gut like everyone else on today's drugs

if we are talking pure genetic base...    I think Kai and Haney are pretty evenly matched, Phil's shoulder width put's him a little behind, but he's more complete head to toe
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« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2013, 08:39:57 AM »

The best example of the evolution of a bber is Nasser

Sherief has the proof in pics

Nasser 1990/91 had the contemporary physique of the day, he then evolved in the Yates era, and further still in the Ronnie era.

In his early days, he was a big guy, almost at Albrecht size, maybe couldve brought up few things, but looked fairly complete

Later he evolved with more mass, huge legs, big delts and arms, much bigger

Later still, he developed the kind of delts and arms(along with corresponding mass elsewhere) that we are now accustomed to, but seemed impossible earlier in his career, I mean, he looked like he was done, complete, a big guy... Along with a huge lower body that's now common place, and he already had big legs initially, but now they became monstrous

If you think about it, Nasser is quite amazing in the way he evolved.
The same could've happened with Haney. If anyone had a structure for size, Haney did

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« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2013, 08:43:09 AM »

Haney at his best would not feature today, I agree

But, take kai/phill to 1988 or bring haney to 2013, and with an even playing field, the guy with the best structure, response and genes wins

Yes Haney had arms overshadowed by his torso, but now we have synthol, and new methods

Would kai or phil have delts and arms as big as their heads in the late 80s? I don't think so

I misinterpreted your point.  I thought you were saying take 2012 Heath and drop him into that era.  You meant take Heath in that era with that era's caveats.   To that, I have no idea, because I can't say what Heath would look like - it's all speculation.
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Y
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« Reply #104 on: January 16, 2013, 10:19:34 PM »

Reverse the argument.

Put 2012 Phil Heath and kai Greene in the 91 Olympia and they destroy everyone including Haney...people would lose their minds and the size and definition.

yes but that doesnt mean they'd look better. these guys off stage in clothes hardly even look like bodybuilders with waists wider than haney's shoulders.
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« Reply #105 on: January 16, 2013, 11:16:45 PM »

I will say that Lee Haney in prime condition.......ie 88, 89 and 91......90 was not his best showing....would absolutely devour any of the current fellas.....Branch.....Ph il....Dennis.....etc.

That type of physique will not be seen again......sadly!!!

The judges have ruined the sport and they are the real reason people are turned off.


I know I am not saying anything new here......but I just get so put off by the current system.

These guys today step on stage at over 270......but Lee at 230....had such lines and shape etc!!!!


Why would the sport that wants to be accepted so much......move in this direction.

Deplorable is the only word to describe the sport today.

My 2 cents.

Turned off!! When were the public at large ever "turned on" to bodybuilding in the first place?

As I've said multiple times before, this is nothing but the usual generational flap we get from bodybuilders from a certain era and their fans.

I GUARANTEE YOU, if you go back to the 1960s or 1970s, you'll hear folk from that era say THE EXACT SAME STUFF about Haney and his contemporaries that you're saying about Heath and the current crop:

Their guys would destroy the current crop; their guys trained harder; their guys had better personalities; bodybuilding was more accepted when THEY competed; they had more comraderie; blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!!!

I could dig up one of my muscle magazines from over 20 years ago and read those same words, almost verbatim (from bodybuilders who competed 30-40 years ago), about Haney, Yates, et. al.

You can respect the previous generations of bodybuilders without running down the current guys. There's room for both.
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« Reply #106 on: January 16, 2013, 11:41:42 PM »

Turned off!! When were the public at large ever "turned on" to bodybuilding in the first place?

As I've said multiple times before, this is nothing but the usual generational flap we get from bodybuilders from a certain era and their fans.

I GUARANTEE YOU, if you go back to the 1960s or 1970s, you'll hear folk from that era say THE EXACT SAME STUFF about Haney and his contemporaries that you're saying about Heath and the current crop:

Their guys would destroy the current crop; their guys trained harder; their guys had better personalities; bodybuilding was more accepted when THEY competed; they had more comraderie; blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!!!

I could dig up one of my muscle magazines from over 20 years ago and read those same words, almost verbatim (from bodybuilders who competed 30-40 years ago), about Haney, Yates, et. al.

You can respect the previous generations of bodybuilders without running down the current guys. There's room for both.

i agree with you BUT no one can deny that the popularity of the sport has come down now comparing to all the previous eras.. the main thing imo behind this is that now everyone looks at the pros as huge bags full of drugs.. many normal ppl now take drugs and know exactly what these pros take to look like this.. the internet has made everything known to everyone who wants to know.. so the wow factor is not as strong as before.. in the 70s for example or even the 80s if a pro. said he was natural many ppl would believe him and even those who wouldn't believe would still look at him as some supernatural god.. without the wow factor the sport has become boring..

another thing the net has made is that all the big contests have become available for free,.. you can watch mr. olympia on the YT after one day,.. you can watch for free all the training videos of all the pros... no need to buy bb magazines or contests and training tapes as in the 90s and the 80s.. when things are reached easily they are less interesting..
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« Reply #107 on: January 17, 2013, 01:48:54 AM »

i agree with you BUT no one can deny that the popularity of the sport has come down now comparing to all the previous eras.. the main thing imo behind this is that now everyone looks at the pros as huge bags full of drugs.. many normal ppl now take drugs and know exactly what these pros take to look like this.. the internet has made everything known to everyone who wants to know.. so the wow factor is not as strong as before.. in the 70s for example or even the 80s if a pro. said he was natural many ppl would believe him and even those who wouldn't believe would still look at him as some supernatural god.. without the wow factor the sport has become boring..

another thing the net has made is that all the big contests have become available for free,.. you can watch mr. olympia on the YT after one day,.. you can watch for free all the training videos of all the pros... no need to buy bb magazines or contests and training tapes as in the 90s and the 80s.. when things are reached easily they are less interesting..

Good post

Always a fringe sport, and yes nostalgia plays its part, IMO the 80s were great era, but like MCWAY said some people thought it "too much"

But there was more pizazz, magic, more of an event, perhaps due to no internet, but also the personalities, the feuds, the different looks. As has been said many times before, you could tell a bber apart by his shadow/silhouette. Now, maybe you can too, but not as distinctive.


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« Reply #108 on: January 17, 2013, 08:43:17 AM »

i agree with you BUT no one can deny that the popularity of the sport has come down now comparing to all the previous eras.. the main thing imo behind this is that now everyone looks at the pros as huge bags full of drugs.. many normal ppl now take drugs and know exactly what these pros take to look like this.. the internet has made everything known to everyone who wants to know.. so the wow factor is not as strong as before.. in the 70s for example or even the 80s if a pro. said he was natural many ppl would believe him and even those who wouldn't believe would still look at him as some supernatural god.. without the wow factor the sport has become boring..

Many normal people take drugs but STILL don't look like pro bodybuilders. Yet, they think that it's all about the syringe. Drugs alone do not a physique make; otherwise Phil Heaths and Branch Warrens would be as common as sand on the beach.

As it was in the past, bodybuilders get a bad rap, because their muscles are seen as useless. If you want to look at popularity as it were, look at the two biggest wrestlers in the industry. John Cena and the Rock. They're both HUGE men. But, their success is because (the nature of wrestling and Hollywood, notwithstanding), they actually do stuff with those big muscles of theirs.

Go back about 30 years, it explains how Hulk Hogan became a household name; whereas you could (relatively speaking) count on one hand the number of people who knew who Lee Haney was.



another thing the net has made is that all the big contests have become available for free,.. you can watch mr. olympia on the YT after one day,.. you can watch for free all the training videos of all the pros... no need to buy bb magazines or contests and training tapes as in the 90s and the 80s.. when things are reached easily they are less interesting..

I see that as a good thing. Think about it. Seeing bodybuilding contests the DAY THEY HAPPEN (or shortly thereafter) sure beats waiting 4-6 months afterwards, to catch uber-edited footage of a show on ESPN at 3 am.

Heck, when the WBF Championship was held on June 15, 1991, finding out the results a week later on WWF Superstars was considered revolutionary. There was no need to wait for "American Muscle" to air the footage in November or December.


I still buy magazines, even with today's technology. Sometimes, nothing compares to printed word and photograph, in terms of information.

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« Reply #109 on: January 17, 2013, 09:00:59 AM »

Some of you forget that on stage is a projected illusion and size does not matter. The waist vs rest differential, joints, posing condition and presentation matter much more than size. It's an illusion.. So yes...on stage Lee would look better than Phil Heath or Kai .. Same way Arnold 75 would look MUCH better onstage than Philsulina. He would also look BIGGER.

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« Reply #110 on: January 17, 2013, 09:53:20 AM »

i agree with you BUT no one can deny that the popularity of the sport has come down now comparing to all the previous eras.. the main thing imo behind this is that now everyone looks at the pros as huge bags full of drugs.. many normal ppl now take drugs and know exactly what these pros take to look like this.. the internet has made everything known to everyone who wants to know.. so the wow factor is not as strong as before.. in the 70s for example or even the 80s if a pro. said he was natural many ppl would believe him and even those who wouldn't believe would still look at him as some supernatural god.. without the wow factor the sport has become boring..

another thing the net has made is that all the big contests have become available for free,.. you can watch mr. olympia on the YT after one day,.. you can watch for free all the training videos of all the pros... no need to buy bb magazines or contests and training tapes as in the 90s and the 80s.. when things are reached easily they are less interesting..
I keep hearing this that the popularity for the sport has gone down. Well this statement is simply a FALSE STATEMENT and just not true.

I run the stage at shows since 2006 and work for many bodybuilding promotors and I have watched the competitor grow from 100 per show to 250 competitors in a level one show, the last one I staged had over 250 people and it was a nightmare, did not get out of there till past midnight.

Now you will not believe this but I ran the stage for another show in October and this show had every seat taken and people standing to it's fullest. Now get this there was no more room left for the audience, NON, sold out completely and the line up was 150 feet long going out the doors into the parking lot and all those people could not get in. They were pissed, some drove from 4+ hours and stayed at hotel so only to find out they can't watch the show cause it is sold out.

All shows are breaking record everywhere in the NPC and other countries, entry levels and ticket sales are insane. Local shows bring in a thousand people or more in the audience.

So I do not know where you come off saying  "BUT no one can deny that the popularity of the sport has come down now comparing to all the previous eras."  The popularity for bodybuilding and for the sport is at it's all time highest EVER. Never has it been this popular in recorded history, sorry bro but you are dead wrong, numbers don't lie. Smiley
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« Reply #111 on: January 17, 2013, 10:03:47 AM »

Never has it been this popular in recorded history, sorry bro but you are dead wrong, numbers don't lie. Smiley

I can vouch for the claim to the increase in numbers.

For instance, back in 2001, my husband and I would typically sponsor about 3-4 NPC competitors that were well on their way to nationals.

Today, we are the proud sponsors of 9 NPC competitors and continuously hold tryouts for new, upcoming talent around the time of the NY PRO.

The sport is growing, not necessarily as fast as I would want it to, but it's growing.

"1"
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« Reply #112 on: January 17, 2013, 10:16:22 AM »

I can vouch for the claim to the increase in numbers.

For instance, back in 2001, my husband and I would typically sponsor about 3-4 NPC competitors that were well on their way to nationals.

Today, we are the proud sponsors of 9 NPC competitors and continuously hold tryouts for new, upcoming talent around the time of the NY PRO.

The sport is growing, not necessarily as fast as I would want it to, but it's growing.

"1"
Exactly.
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« Reply #113 on: January 17, 2013, 11:28:19 AM »

I keep hearing this that the popularity for the sport has gone down. Well this statement is simply a FALSE STATEMENT and just not true.

I run the stage at shows since 2006 and work for many bodybuilding promotors and I have watched the competitor grow from 100 per show to 250 competitors in a level one show, the last one I staged had over 250 people and it was a nightmare, did not get out of there till past midnight.

Now you will not believe this but I ran the stage for another show in October and this show had every seat taken and people standing to it's fullest. Now get this there was no more room left for the audience, NON, sold out completely and the line up was 150 feet long going out the doors into the parking lot and all those people could not get in. They were pissed, some drove from 4+ hours and stayed at hotel so only to find out they can't watch the show cause it is sold out.

All shows are breaking record everywhere in the NPC and other countries, entry levels and ticket sales are insane. Local shows bring in a thousand people or more in the audience.

So I do not know where you come off saying  "BUT no one can deny that the popularity of the sport has come down now comparing to all the previous eras."  The popularity for bodybuilding and for the sport is at it's all time highest EVER. Never has it been this popular in recorded history, sorry bro but you are dead wrong, numbers don't lie. Smiley

bro. so can you let me know why in the 90s each top pro. had a big fan base.. even till today dorian still has a lot of fans,.. nasser, wheeler, levrone all still have a lot of fans even after many years of retirement.. even here on GB you have a lot of dorian's ass lickers, ronnie's ass lickers, the respectable team nasser Grin... but you dont have team phil or team kai and these are the best 2 now.. and before them jay won the olympia 4 times but his popularity was never close to someone like wheeler who never won the olympia..

after ronnie i havent seen any pro. with a real big fan base.. and i think the problem is mainly in the fans who dont see things that exciting anymore.. in the 90s each of the top pros had his separate big fan base.. then by the 2nd half of ronnie's era it was only ronnie who had a real fan base,.. most of jay's fans were supporting him only because they didnt like ronnie's physique not because jay was that great.. then after ronnie's last victory "2005" i havent noticed anyone so popular..

as for mcway post i didnt say anyone who takes the same drugs will be the same level of phil.. sure the top pros have the best genetics in the world but i meant that the mentality of most of the fans have changed..
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« Reply #114 on: January 17, 2013, 11:34:06 AM »

bro. so can you let me know why in the 90s each top pro. had a big fan base.. even till today dorian still has a lot of fans,.. nasser, wheeler, levrone all still have a lot of fans even after many years of retirement.. even here on GB you have a lot of dorian's ass lickers, ronnie's ass lickers, the respectable team nasser Grin... but you dont have team phil or team kai and these are the best 2 now.. and before them jay won the olympia 4 times but his popularity was never close to someone like wheeler who never won the olympia..

after ronnie i havent seen any pro. with a real big fan base.. and i think the problem is mainly in the fans who dont see things that exciting anymore.. in the 90s each of the top pros had his separate big fan base.. then by the 2nd half of ronnie's era it was only ronnie who had a real fan base,.. most of jay's fans were supporting him only because they didnt like ronnie's physique not because jay was that great.. then after ronnie's last victory "2005" i havent noticed anyone so popular..

as for mcway post i didnt say anyone who takes the same drugs will be the same level of phil.. sure the top pros have the best genetics in the world but i meant that the mentality of most of the fans have changed..

They aren't as popular with YOU. so you think it's that way everywhere. I remember I was at a club and I was talking to the doorman, big, sauced up guy, about late twenties. the subject of BBing came up and he was all about Jay Cutler, greatest MR O, yada yada...It's the same old same old, whatever we grew up with is the best, most popular...etc.
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« Reply #115 on: January 17, 2013, 11:46:52 AM »

Some of you forget that on stage is a projected illusion and size does not matter. The waist vs rest differential, joints, posing condition and presentation matter much more than size. It's an illusion.. So yes...on stage Lee would look better than Phil Heath or Kai .. Same way Arnold 75 would look MUCH better onstage than Philsulina. He would also look BIGGER.


cleanest natural gets it!!!!


thank you sir....for the pictures of King Lee!!! He looks like a true champion.


guys....read what cleanest natural is saying......i fully agree with his post. hopefully..... many years from now......when someone is talking about bbing.....i want them to look at pics that display the physiques that truly represent bbing in a positive light......pics of haney, benfatto, labrada, samir, baldwin, makkawy, etc.
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« Reply #116 on: January 17, 2013, 11:52:31 AM »

Turned off!! When were the public at large ever "turned on" to bodybuilding in the first place?

As I've said multiple times before, this is nothing but the usual generational flap we get from bodybuilders from a certain era and their fans.

I GUARANTEE YOU, if you go back to the 1960s or 1970s, you'll hear folk from that era say THE EXACT SAME STUFF about Haney and his contemporaries that you're saying about Heath and the current crop:

Their guys would destroy the current crop; their guys trained harder; their guys had better personalities; bodybuilding was more accepted when THEY competed; they had more comraderie; blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!!!

I could dig up one of my muscle magazines from over 20 years ago and read those same words, almost verbatim (from bodybuilders who competed 30-40 years ago), about Haney, Yates, et. al.

You can respect the previous generations of bodybuilders without running down the current guys. There's room for both.
Mcway.......you tell me......do you think bbing had more fans when arnold and lee were around? do you think bbing as we know it today has more fans......most people i interact with.....are turned off with what they look @ today!
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« Reply #117 on: January 17, 2013, 11:56:10 AM »

Yes, but he would beat them in 1991, not today, because judging has changed, hence the current state of things.

But if you mean according to us fans as "judges", then of course, no doubt. The top 6 in 88 for example compared to current top 6 of abominations, no contest..


Yes , it all depends on blowjob abilities in 2013, not Bodybuilding criterias
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« Reply #118 on: January 17, 2013, 11:58:33 AM »

Jeff King on today's stack...

Frightening.
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« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2013, 12:09:13 PM »

They aren't as popular with YOU. so you think it's that way everywhere. I remember I was at a club and I was talking to the doorman, big, sauced up guy, about late twenties. the subject of BBing came up and he was all about Jay Cutler, greatest MR O, yada yada...It's the same old same old, whatever we grew up with is the best, most popular...etc.

why there are A LOT of ronnie's and dorian's and nasser's supporters on GB although they retired many years ago and there aren't many fans of jay or phil the 2 guys who won the last few olympias??.. GB is a true representative of all bb fans,.. you have here guys from every place in the world and from all generations..
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« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2013, 01:31:34 PM »

why there are A LOT of ronnie's and dorian's and nasser's supporters on GB although they retired many years ago and there aren't many fans of jay or phil the 2 guys who won the last few olympias??.. GB is a true representative of all bb fans,.. you have here guys from every place in the world and from all generations..
that's the way it's always been. Guys are hated during their reign then appreciated after they retire. No one got more hate than Ronnie, Dorian & Haney (& especially Nasser) when they were the Mr O, pretty much the same way Jay & Dexter were being hated on a few yrs ago & like Phil's being hated on now.

A few yrs from now after Phil & Jay are gone, people will be talking about how great they were & how the new crop sucks. Human nature
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« Reply #121 on: January 17, 2013, 01:48:09 PM »

that's the way it's always been. Guys are hated during their reign then appreciated after they retire. No one got more hate than Ronnie, Dorian & Haney (& especially Nasser) when they were the Mr O, pretty much the same way Jay & Dexter were being hated on a few yrs ago & like Phil's being hated on now.

A few yrs from now after Phil & Jay are gone, people will be talking about how great they were & how the new crop sucks. Human nature

no at all.. all the top pros of the 90s gained their popularity very early in their career.. dorian was hated by some till 92 but then after his amazing shape in 93 everyone considered him a turning point in the history of the sport.. wheeler amazed everybody in 93.. same with levron in 92.. as for nasser in the mid 90s his popularity was compared only with dorian's.. and in 98 everybody accepted ronnie as the new mr. olympia and since then he has gained a huge fan base which is still there..
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« Reply #122 on: January 17, 2013, 02:23:27 PM »

no at all.. all the top pros of the 90s gained their popularity very early in their career.. dorian was hated by some till 92 but then after his amazing shape in 93 everyone considered him a turning point in the history of the sport.. wheeler amazed everybody in 93.. same with levron in 92.. as for nasser in the mid 90s his popularity was compared only with dorian's.. and in 98 everybody accepted ronnie as the new mr. olympia and since then he has gained a huge fan base which is still there..
there's no dispute on Wheeler, Levrone or Shawn. You've forgotten about 2001 when everyone would post the pic of Ronnie with his distended stomach. Shawn & Kevin were vocal against Ronnie winning in 98. Nasser took a lot of crap for beating Cormier in the ASC, I forgot what yr. Nasser & Dorian took alot of crap for having distended stomachs. I could go on
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« Reply #123 on: January 17, 2013, 04:48:48 PM »

Some of you forget that on stage is a projected illusion and size does not matter. The waist vs rest differential, joints, posing condition and presentation matter much more than size. It's an illusion.. So yes...on stage Lee would look better than Phil Heath or Kai .. Same way Arnold 75 would look MUCH better onstage than Philsulina. He would also look BIGGER.



exactly. i dont think bodyweight means as much as people think it does
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« Reply #124 on: January 17, 2013, 08:29:07 PM »

there's no dispute on Wheeler, Levrone or Shawn. You've forgotten about 2001 when everyone would post the pic of Ronnie with his distended stomach. Shawn & Kevin were vocal against Ronnie winning in 98. Nasser took a lot of crap for beating Cormier in the ASC, I forgot what yr. Nasser & Dorian took alot of crap for having distended stomachs. I could go on

we are talking about 2 different things.. i didnt say the top guys of the 90s were perfect or were accepted and liked by everyone,.. i am just saying that the fan base of each of them was much bigger than today's pros and this shows the sport has not become as interesting as before..
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