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Author Topic: Unitarian Christianity - what do you think?  (Read 1621 times)
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« on: October 02, 2012, 05:50:00 PM »

Closes a lot of the gap between Christianity and Islam:

http://americanunitarian.org/explanation.htm
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 09:45:01 AM »

Chrislam
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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 03:42:59 PM »

lol@ chrislam

or maybe... following the religion of God up to the point of Jesus and stopping right there as opposed to changing the religion of God with Paul and the church.
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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 04:08:25 PM »

lol@ chrislam

or maybe... following the religion of God up to the point of Jesus and stopping right there as opposed to changing the religion of God with Paul and the church.

How long does it take to read the gospels?  2-4 hours depending upon the reader.  That said, do you honestly believe that everything Christ taught his disciples and the multitudes is fully laid out there?  We have a core message represented in the gospels, but the Pauline letters expand on what Christ taught that wasn't in gospels.  Paul began his Christian missionary work, but he did so with the blessings of the disciples....Peter and James in particular.  Paul spent a couple weeks in fellowship with Peter and also met with James...they weren't estranged.  Now I know Muslims deny 2 Peter, but they deny it because it affirms the disciples support of Paul's ministry...no one was closer to Christ and Paul's work is completely affirmed because of it.  Still, I fully get why 2 Peter must be denied cause it reaks havoc on the Muslim faith because it validates Paul, Christ as God, the trinity.....you know, some minor topics LOL! 
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« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2012, 04:46:53 PM »

Paul never was with Jesus, nor did he live with him or anything. He just made claims to 'visions' and then went on his mission... after the fact that he was a jewish roman paid bounty hunter of other jews who were followers of Jesus.

When he confronted Jesus' disciples they rejected him and he condemned them for not following 'his gospel' (aka paul's gospel)

If you wipe out Paul from the picture, you get what true christianity is without the fradulent teachings of the church and paul.

Did Jesus forbid rabbis to marry? No, the church did. Hence priests who deprive themselves sexually thinking they are 'holier' because of that.
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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 12:47:51 PM »

Bump for chrislam Smiley The real people of the book Smiley

Matthew 24:4-5 states you will be deceived by people that come using Jesus’ name. Consider the parable of the sower. Jesus was warning us then that as soon as His Gospel was preached, the enemy (Paul) would be there to steal the truth!


Paul was never recognized as an apostle by the Disciples OR Jesus

Paul was never trained by the disciples, the men who walked, talked, and broke bread with our Saviour. He received his knowledge from "revelations."

Paul's account of his Damascus Road Experience changed every time he told it, thus the disciples knew he was lying.

Paul declared he was teaching another Gospel of which he himself was the Father

Paul issued his own commandments and laws for people to adhere to

Paul taught the exact Opposite of what Jesus and His real disciples did.

Paul worked to destroy and undo everything Jesus and His disciples did and were doing.

Paul was never repentant for being the greatest persecutor of Christians at that time! He boasted about it! Over and Over!

Paul said God's law was a Curse. Jesus said it was a blessing. Who's lying?

Paul condemned Jesus and His disciples for false teachings, he condemned Jesus Himself for having long hair in 1 Corinthians 11:14,  something approved in Numbers 6:5 and Judges 13:5.

Jesus Said: Keep the Sabbath (Mark 2:27), circumcise male children (Luke 2:21), Paul Said: Circumcision is not necessary (Romans 2:26) that is going against what the Christ said in Luke 2:21.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1 Paul says that he was not giving them anything but what “he preached.” He explained this even further in the second book (or letter) to the Corinthians (2 Corinthians 11:17). It reads - “That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.” He's telling you plain and simple he was speaking of himself and not from or of the Lord!"

Paul cursed Jesus and His disciples

Paul Supported and demanded Adherence to Iniquity (Discrimination), Jesus said to not let it be found among us! Who's lying?
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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 09:50:16 PM »

St. Paul The Root of Christian Missionary Deception


By Malik Ali

There was an apostle, who wrote an epistle,
strange faith did he jostle, and scriptures entwistle.
His doctrines pentacostal, made GOD's people bristle,
and blapshemy collosal, led to his dismissal.
Apostle, epistle, collossal, dismissal,
His writings bescissel, make faith so afissile.

GOD created man in his image.
Then the Christians came along and recreated GOD in man's image.
Anonymous

Quite a number of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah brings about His command; for Allah Hath power over all things. (Qur'an Surah Al-Baqarah 2:109)

In the annals of religious history, Paul happens to be a surprise. Why?, he is the only figure to admit to lying and strangely enough, justifying it as well. When the prophets clearly condemned this evil habit, Paul glorified it, and put a new meaning to the ends will justify the means.
During the ministry of Jesus, Saul (Paul) was a dedicated member of a powerful, exclusive Jewish sect called Pharisees (ACTS 26:5). Their pretensions to sanctity had labelled them as hypocrites. When these overbearing vainglorious Jews confronted Jesus, he called them:

"You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
John 8:44

Saul, a zealous persecutor of the devoted disciples of Christ, became the first Christian missionary and an Apostle to the Gentiles after converting himself to Christianity by a "vision", which he claims he had, while on the road to Damascus. The missionary changed his name from Saul to Paul and became the biggest contributor to the Books of the New Testament. From the above verse, Jesus like many of his predecessors condemned lying, deceit and hypocrisy. Lying is condemned several times throughout the Bible, and deceit by its own nature, is sinful and can only lead to hazardous consequences. What does Peter say in regards to guile (which means cunning, deceit, trickery, treachery)

For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that speak no guile
1 PETER 3:12

The verse speaks for itself. One of the factors that hinder mans success in this world and eternal life in the hereafter, is the use of guile. But on his own admittance, what does Paul say?:

But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless being crafty, I CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE
2 CORINTHIANS 12:16

On his own admission, Paul is saying that he uses deception in his modus operandi. In all the new versions of the Bible, the more common term of deceit is replaced instead. This statement is made long after his conversion to Christianity, in the phase when he supposed to be blessed and righteous, and most importantly of all, being guided by Christ.

For our exhortation [was] not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
1 Thessalonians 2:3

Paul now speaks with two tongues, guile he can

But what I do, that will I do, that I may cut off occasion from those which desire occasion;...
2 CORINTHIANS 11:13

In the New Revised Standard Version, the verse reads in order to deny an opportunity to those who want an opportunity to be recognized as our equals.. He can't be any clearer or succinct, If any other Christian group tries to rival Pauls mission, he will seek to utilise means of destroying any opportunity that may arise for his opponents. This goes completely against the morals from what we know of Jesus and the Prophets of age. If Paul believed he had the truth, there would be no need to play games and power struggles, as the truth will always prevail in the end. The use of deceit and craftiness is the mark of the insecure and paranoid, not so certain that his own faith is correct, he had more hope in his will and ways prevailing, rather than the truth of the message of Christ.

For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them under the Law, that I might gain them that are under the Law;
To them that are without the law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ) that I might gain them that are under the law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
I CORINTHIANS 9:19-22

What better illustration of hypocrisy could be given. For the sake of the truth, Paul will use all means of deceit, insincerity, ruse etc in order to gain more followers. Just like his successors today, the missionaries put on a face of every ethnic race. You can see them at many of their websites, to the Muslims; they put themselves under the guise of WORLD VISION and other aid programs, and when they inject the needle, they also try to inject the needle of Christianity along side it. To the Jewish people, the Christian missionaries love Jews, Israel and Zionism (one point that they could never mention to the Muslims), bagels and Seinfeld. This love becomes so much that its insincere face starts to show.

It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!
Sura Al-Imran 3.69

For if the truth of God, hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory: why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
ROMANS 3:7

Even though Paul admits to lying (like he has in many other places), never how much he tries to defend his actions, the rational spiritual mind will never accept it. Lying is at the root of falsehood, the very element that is completely opposed to truth. The truth is a means to an end. If a Muslim wanted to build a Mosque and he required funding to do so; there are several ways he could go about it. If he decided to rob a bank and used the stolen cash to build the Masjid, all his efforts will be in vain. Allah will never accept it from him, even though the man did it for Allah's sake. The fact is that the ends don't justify the means, to get to paradise, you must choose the road that leads to paradise. And deceit is definitely not on that road.

Cursed [be] he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, ...
Jeremiah 48:10


ON THE ROAD TO DAMASCUS

The turning point in the life of Paul happens to be his crucial trip from Jerusalem to Damascus. Many would agree that if Paul did see a vision of of Christ, it would leave an undeniable imprint in his mind. And the fact that this is supposedly recorded in the "Book of God", their should be consistency in the way the incident is narrated. As God is not the author of confusion.

NARRATION 1
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
ACTS 9:3-7
NARRATION 2
And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
ACTS 22:6-10
NARRATION 3
Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
ACTS 26:12-20


DISCREPANCIES IN THE NARRATIONS
In the first we have a record of Paul's men, hearing a voice and seeing no man (ie Jesus). In the second narration, we have Paul claiming that the men saw Jesus, but did not hear a voice. The possibility of Paul manipulating this "event" is clearly revealed in the second narration, we have Paul defending himself before the Hebrew counsel, and twisting the point that his companions saw a light, but did not hear the voice; apperantly adds more credibility to his phenomenal vision. As a voice could be anyones voice for what the Jews care. Yes there is a contradiction, but from what we have seen from the character of Paul, it should not come as a surprise. In the third narration, he omits any mention of the specific incident.

The first and second narration are consistent when it comes to claiming only he fell to the ground when he saw the light. In the third narration, he claims he and his companions fell down. Why the change of retrospect, given the fact that Paul was defending himself in the third narration at the Court of King Agrippa, dramatising the vision by claiming all his men fell to the earth highlighted the desire to show the great impact this event had not just on his life, but those who were in his presence.

What clearly reveals the flaw-ness of his vision, is that in the third narration when addressing King Agrippa and his Gentile court. He makes the claim that in his vision, Jesus told him that he will be Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee. So in effect, Paul is claiming that Jesus sent him to the Gentiles, (possibly in order placate the crowd present). And in the second narration to the Jews, he brings absolutely no mention of this "I'am sending you to the Gentiles" alleged statement that Jesus told him. Why not?, the obvious answer lies in the respective audience being addressed.

In a Court of Law, such contradictory evidence would be held suspect and hence dismissed or cross-examined.

Back to the specific issue of whether the disciples heard the voice or not. The Apologisers for the New Testament, as well as the NIV bible, have tried to cover up the contradiction between Acts 9:7 and 22:9 by translating Acts 9:7, "akouontes men tes phones" (literally "they heard the voice", but, skewing the words of Acts 22:9, "phonen ouk hakousan" (literally, "they did not hear the voice") into, "they did not understand the voice".

And, according to Luke's own report of Paul, Paul was well familiar with better words for "understanding". In Acts 28:26,
Paul says,

"In hearing, you shall hear but not understand."

The Greek work he uses for "understand" is syniete. He also uses the word in Rom 3:11, 15:21, 2 Cor 10:12, and Eph
5:17. Luke also uses this word frequently, Luke 2:50, 8:10 (when Jesus is allegedly concealing his meaning from
folks), Luke 18:34, 24:45, and Acts 28:27 to indicate a lack of understanding. So, if Paul (or Luke) had meant that
Paul's companions heard the voice but did not understand it, they could have easily chosen to use "syniete" instead, so
that there would have been no question of contradiction in testimony. You'd think this would be important. Could it be possible that Paul fell victim to his own theory

...For Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 CORINTHIANS 11:14

Regardless of the voice his campanions heard (and did not hear), there is the issue of the big light that persuaded Paul.
Even before he is told who his Big Light is, Paul addresses it as "lord" (which tends to make the whole account sound rather
contrived). But, Paul already recognises an "Angel of Light" as Satan (see 2 Cor 11:14 above). And, in fact, an Angel of Light is
identified in Isaiah 14:12 as Tyre the Morning Star, who is the enemy of GOD fallen from heaven for claiming to ascend to
heaven (Tyre is often seen as representative of Satan). So, for Paul to immediately call a Big Light his "lord" is quite telling.
Incidentally, St. John's version of Jesus calls himself the Morning Star (Rev 22:16). And, it is interesting in light (excuse the
pun) of the fact that the "ascending" imagery in Isaiah 14:12 also closely resembles the "ascending Jesus" of St. Paul's
doctrine. It just leaves wondering, and what is one to make out of this.

It is too much of a paradox, because the verse prior to the one above (in which he refers to his rivals as discussed earlier). Paul states

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the Apostles of Christ.
2 CORINTHIANS 11:13

The saint (?) is accusing others of being deceitful while he himself, not only practices deceit, but admits to it as well as takes pride in it. According to this strange mentality, he thinks he can beautify the word "deceit", and expect everyone to buy into it. The term deceit does not having opposing definitions, i.e., a positive connotation for Paul and a negative one for his competitors.

Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what Allah hath revealed"? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against God, and scornfully to reject of His signs!"
Al -An'am 6.93


Yes folks, another surprise is awaiting. What does he do now, he rallies against those who practice deceit in the upcoming verses.

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 4:2

Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
Romans 3:13

Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Romans 1:29

Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds
Colossians 3:9

Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1 Timothy 4:2


So much for abiding by the "practice what you preach" motto. The whole Bible is full of such verses; to make sure Paul is not alone in this manner. His contemporaries speak

But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
James 3:14

I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1 John 2:21

If Paul has a difficult time applying such moral teachings to himself, he should take heed of what Christ's discpiles warned in the above. And also what the Old Testament, the books he is so fond of quoting when it suits his interests has to say.

Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.
Psalms 5:6


His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue [is] mischief and vanity.
Psalms 10:7

Thou lovest all devouring words, O [thou] deceitful tongue.
Psalms 52:4

He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.
Psalms 101:7

For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a lying tongue.
Psalms 109:2

Thou hast trodden down all them that err from thy statutes: for their deceit [is] falsehood.
Psalms 119:118

Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, [and] from a deceitful tongue.
Psalms 120:2

A true witness delivereth souls: but a deceitful [witness] speaketh lies.
Proverbs 14:25

Bread of deceit [is] sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
Proverbs 20:17

Faithful [are] the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy [are] deceitful.
Proverbs 27:6


Mark 7:22
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Ecclesiasticus 27:25
Whoso casteth a stone on high casteth it on his own head; and a deceitful stroke shall make wounds.

PUTTING THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE

Deception was not an uncommon tool of the Paulian church. At first, St. Paul considered deception (guile) and flattery to be inappropriate tools for his ministry. Paul grouped Guile with the evils of deceit and uncleanliness, denying to his Thessalonian church that he had used guile on them,

For our urgent request was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in Guile... For neither at any time used we flattering words, as you all know, nor a cloak of covetousness; God is witness: Nor did we seek glory from men, neither from you nor others, though perhaps we had burdened you...
1st Thessalonians 2:3-6

"Burdened you" is a euphamism, used often, for "asked you for money". And, as you will see below, after a few years, St. Paul used both flattery and guile in getting his Corinthian church to accept their "burden".

But, later, writing to the church at Corinth, Paul admits to them that he had used guile (trickery/deception), sending others (such as Titus) instead of himself (whom he knew some of them opposed) to motivate them into a generous state (2 Cor 8:6). How sending others amounted to trickery is not specifically stated... merely that it did. A very likely reason is this: It is known that there was dissent among those in the Corinthian church over which apostle to follow. Not everyone was loyal to St. Paul, or believed in his authority (for one of many examples, see 2 Cor 13:3). Thus, some Corinthians were reluctant to make donations to St. Paul, and he clearly wrote a great deal of the 2nd Corinthians Letter for the express purpose of convincing them of their obligation to give (voluntarily, of course). Whatever the case, Paul admits that he used guile, and associates it with his sending others to them to solicit donations.

For the third time I am planning to visit you; and I will not burden you. For I seek not what is yours (money), but you. For children ought not save up for the parents, but parents for the children. And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you... But be that as it may, I myself did not burden you. Rather, being crafty, I took you in with Guile. But, did I make a profit from you by those whom I sent to you? I chose Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a profit from you?... I fear that, when I arrive... there shall be arguments, jealousies, wraths, strifes, slanderings, whisperings, swellings, and tumults.
2nd Corinthians 12:14-20

Ironically, Paul is careful not to mention "beguilings" in his list here. As for flattering words, the entire Letter of 2nd Corinthians is absolutely dripping with phrases saying how proud Paul is of them, how he praises them and boasts of the generosity he expects to receive from them (see 2nd Cor 1:14, 7:4, 7:15, 8:24, 9:2). Paul tells them he has "godly" jealousies for them (2 Cor 11:2). The whole notion of psychological manipulation such as this reeks of guile. And, his boasting has purpose:

After flattering the Corinthians with his bragging of them, of their eagerness to give, Paul tries to play on their sense of pride and
embarrassment, playing them against the Macedonian church:


We want you to know about the gifts of God which was shown in the churches of Macedonia: Despite great trial of affliction, the abundance of their joy and their deep poverty abounded in the wealth of their generosity. For they gave to their limit, I assure you, and were willing to give more than their means, and with much appeal they implored us that we accept the hospitality and gifts in ministry to the church leaders. ...So, we have urged Titus that he should secure from you this work of grace (giving) as he had already begun to do... See that you excel in this gracious work.
2 Cor 8:2-7

We hope that no one will object to the generous gifts that we are arranging... So, give proof, before the churches, of your love and of our boasting of you to these men.
2 Cor 8:20,24

For regarding the offering to the church leaders, it is unnecessary for me to motivate you. For I know the eagerness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia... Yet I had sent the others to you instead, for fear that our boasting of you should be unfounded in this respect (that, as I said, you all may be prepared (to give)), for fear that, if by chance some from Macedonia came with me and found you unprepared to give, we would be ashamed (we, and not you, no) due to this confident boasting.
2 Cor 9:1-4

Guile is certainly deception. Flattery is simply rather shameful. And they lend themselves nicely to each other. But, deception (especially for the sake of proselytising) was to lay the foundation of the European church. And the missionaries of today seem to have no qualms in utilising it. This will be looked at separately later on.


Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
PSALMS 32:2
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« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2012, 09:23:57 AM »

Mohammed never met Jesus or any of the other Disciples either and also had 'revelations' so he has no extra legitimacy in comparison to Paul.

As Jesus says: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
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« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2012, 09:50:41 AM »

Mohammed never met Jesus or any of the other Disciples either and also had 'revelations' so he has no extra legitimacy in comparison to Paul.

As Jesus says: "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

So neither Paul nor Muhammad PBUH met Jesus PBUH, so even if one is not a Muslim he should still negate Paul and simply believe what Jesus HIMSELF said.  Like the Unitarian Christians do.  
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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2012, 11:33:34 AM »

So neither Paul nor Muhammad PBUH met Jesus PBUH, so even if one is not a Muslim he should still negate Paul and simply believe what Jesus HIMSELF said.  Like the Unitarian Christians do.  

According to this theory then only a part of the New Testament would be negated as opposed to the Koran in its entirety.

The other books of the New Testament still state that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and is the Messiah as prophesied in the Torah and Old Testament.

Plus there's still the book of Revelations which wasn't written by Paul and states that Jesus will be seated at God's right-hand on Judgement Day and is the Lamb of God and died for man's sins etc.

One of the the active Church-goers on here could maybe help clarify these issues.
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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2012, 12:29:21 PM »

According to this theory then only a part of the New Testament would be negated as opposed to the Koran in its entirety.

The other books of the New Testament still state that Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit and is the Messiah as prophesied in the Torah and Old Testament.

Plus there's still the book of Revelations which wasn't written by Paul and states that Jesus will be seated at God's right-hand on Judgement Day and is the Lamb of God and died for man's sins etc.

One of the the active Church-goers on here could maybe help clarify these issues.


Jesus never once said in the Bible that he is God or the Son of God - only other people did.  You can show me more examples of others who claimed Jesus to be the son of God and it won't make your argument any stronger.  Jesus himself actually called himself "son of man" 88 times.

Sort of like if I say "I post on getbig" 88 times but other people say "No bobs posts on bb.com" - who is more credible?
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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2012, 09:04:28 PM »

Jesus never once said in the Bible that he is God or the Son of God - only other people did.  You can show me more examples of others who claimed Jesus to be the son of God and it won't make your argument any stronger.  Jesus himself actually called himself "son of man" 88 times.

Sort of like if I say "I post on getbig" 88 times but other people say "No bobs posts on bb.com" - who is more credible?

Matthew 26:63-64
63 But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

When Christ replies "you have said so" he isn't sarcastically replying "if you say so"......he's saying "you said it chief!"  He's affirming the claim.
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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2012, 10:44:34 PM »

Uh wait where does it say "I Jesus I am God?" "I Jesus demand that you worship me"

He even goes on to say he is the son of man.

Oops. Sorry not good enough.

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36


You keep running away from me whenever I post this verse.

No one knows. Angels don't know. Jesus doesn't know. God only knows. Quite similar to how the Qur'an says, no one knows, Muhammad (pbuh) didn't know and how Gabriel (pbuh) didn't know and how ONLY God knows:

(79:42) They ask you about the Hour: “When will it be?”22  يَسۡـــَٔلُوۡنَكَ عَنِ السَّاعَةِ اَيَّانَ مُرۡسٰٮهَا ؕ‏
(79:43) What concern do you have to speak about that?  فِيۡمَ اَنۡتَ مِنۡ ذِكۡرٰٮهَاؕ‏
(79:44) Its knowledge rests with your Lord.

I will find the hadith where Muhammad asks Gabriel and it says (this is from the exegis of quran/tafsir):

(To Him is referred the knowledge of the Hour.) meaning, no one knows about that apart from Him. Muhammad , the leader of mankind, said to Jibril, who is one of the leading angels, when he asked him about the Hour:

(The one who is asked about it does not know more than the one who is asking.)'' And Allah says:

(To your Lord belongs the term thereof.) (79:44)


And found it:

On the authority of Umar (r) who said: One day while we were sitting with the Messanger of Allah (s), there came before us a man with extremely white clothing and extremely black hair. There were no signs of travel on him and none of us knew him. He [came and] sat next to the Prophet (s). He supported his knees up against the knees of the Prophet (s) and put his hand on his thighs. He said, ‘O Muhammad, tell me about Islam.’  The Messanger of Allah (s) said, ‘Islam is to testify that there is none worthy of worhsip except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messanger of Allah, to establish the prayers, to pay the zakat, to fast [the month of] Ramadan, and to make pilgrimage to the House if you have the means to do so.’ He said, ‘You have spoken truthfully [or correctly].’ We were amazed that he asks the question and then says that he had spoken truthfully. He said, ‘Tell me about Imaan (faith).’ He [the Messanger of Allah (s)] responded, ‘It is to believe in Allah, His angles, His books, His messangers, the Last Day and to believe in the divine decree, [both] the good and the evil thereof.’ He said, ‘You have spoken truthfully.’ He said, ‘Tell me about al-Ihsaan (goodness).’ He [the Prophet (s)] answered, ‘It is that you worship Allah as if you see Him. And even though you do not see Him, [you know] He sees you.’ He said, ‘Tell me about [the time of] the Hour,’ He [the Prophet (s)] answered, ‘The one being asked does not know more than the one asking.’ He said, ‘Tell me about it’s signs.’ He answered, ‘The slave-girl shall give birth to her master, and you will see the barefooted, scantily-clothed, destitiute shepards competing in constructing lofty buildings.’ Then he went away. I stayed for a long time. Then he [the Prophet (s)] said, ‘O Umar, do you know who the questioner was?’ I said, ‘Allah and His Mesanger know best.’ He said, ‘It was [the angel] Gabriel who came to teach you your religion.’  (Recorded in Muslim)


In fact in this long hadith there are a few prophecies. The master/slave thing is understood to mean children ordering parents in some commentary as is the case of the moral decline in society today. The last one has become quite evident in recent years. Those that were bedouins are today competing in building tall buildings (UAE, qatar, kuwait, saudi, etc...)
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« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2012, 10:34:36 AM »

Uh wait where does it say "I Jesus I am God?" "I Jesus demand that you worship me"

He even goes on to say he is the son of man.

Oops. Sorry not good enough.

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Matthew 24:36


You keep running away from me whenever I post this verse.

No one knows. Angels don't know. Jesus doesn't know. God only knows. Quite similar to how the Qur'an says, no one knows, Muhammad (pbuh) didn't know and how Gabriel (pbuh) didn't know and how ONLY God knows:

(79:42) They ask you about the Hour: “When will it be?”22  يَسۡـــَٔلُوۡنَكَ عَنِ السَّاعَةِ اَيَّانَ مُرۡسٰٮهَا ؕ‏
(79:43) What concern do you have to speak about that?  فِيۡمَ اَنۡتَ مِنۡ ذِكۡرٰٮهَاؕ‏
(79:44) Its knowledge rests with your Lord.

I will find the hadith where Muhammad asks Gabriel and it says (this is from the exegis of quran/tafsir):

(To Him is referred the knowledge of the Hour.) meaning, no one knows about that apart from Him. Muhammad , the leader of mankind, said to Jibril, who is one of the leading angels, when he asked him about the Hour:

(The one who is asked about it does not know more than the one who is asking.)'' And Allah says:

(To your Lord belongs the term thereof.) (79:44)


And found it:

On the authority of Umar (r) who said: One day while we were sitting with the Messanger of Allah (s), there came before us a man with extremely white clothing and extremely black hair. There were no signs of travel on him and none of us knew him. He [came and] sat next to the Prophet (s). He supported his knees up against the knees of the Prophet (s) and put his hand on his thighs. He said, ‘O Muhammad, tell me about Islam.’  The Messanger of Allah (s) said, ‘Islam is to testify that there is none worthy of worhsip except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messanger of Allah, to establish the prayers, to pay the zakat, to fast [the month of] Ramadan, and to make pilgrimage to the House if you have the means to do so.’ He said, ‘You have spoken truthfully [or correctly].’ We were amazed that he asks the question and then says that he had spoken truthfully. He said, ‘Tell me about Imaan (faith).’ He [the Messanger of Allah (s)] responded, ‘It is to believe in Allah, His angles, His books, His messangers, the Last Day and to believe in the divine decree, [both] the good and the evil thereof.’ He said, ‘You have spoken truthfully.’ He said, ‘Tell me about al-Ihsaan (goodness).’ He [the Prophet (s)] answered, ‘It is that you worship Allah as if you see Him. And even though you do not see Him, [you know] He sees you.’ He said, ‘Tell me about [the time of] the Hour,’ He [the Prophet (s)] answered, ‘The one being asked does not know more than the one asking.’ He said, ‘Tell me about it’s signs.’ He answered, ‘The slave-girl shall give birth to her master, and you will see the barefooted, scantily-clothed, destitiute shepards competing in constructing lofty buildings.’ Then he went away. I stayed for a long time. Then he [the Prophet (s)] said, ‘O Umar, do you know who the questioner was?’ I said, ‘Allah and His Mesanger know best.’ He said, ‘It was [the angel] Gabriel who came to teach you your religion.’  (Recorded in Muslim)


In fact in this long hadith there are a few prophecies. The master/slave thing is understood to mean children ordering parents in some commentary as is the case of the moral decline in society today. The last one has become quite evident in recent years. Those that were bedouins are today competing in building tall buildings (UAE, qatar, kuwait, saudi, etc...)

Now, before I respond to the verse you say I run from (reality is, this is the first time I've read this in one of your posts.  Not saying you didn't write it before, just saying this is first time I've read it) let's briefly recap.

You and bigbobs requested a verse in which Christ affirms he is the Son of God.  I supply that easily and you casually dismiss it with a "sorry not good enough" response.  I got news for you.....you answer to God, God doesn't answer to you.  Christ also didn't have to answer to the Sanhedrin, but he did so in a fashion that he chose.  He turned the tables repeatedly on the leadership at that time, but he still completely affirmed he was the Son of God.  That verse is undeniable, but just because it doesn't meet your exact request doesn't mean it doesn't completely affirm who he said he was.

So, onto the verse I "repeatedly run from".  Jesus said he didn't know the hour of his return....only the Father knows that.  So, does this contradict Jesus' deity?  Not even a little bit.  Why did the Son of God come to Earth in the form of man and live among his creation as any man would?  He came to fulfill what Israel could not in the OT while at the same time establishing a new covenant with man.  Christ came and submitted to the Father so that we may recognize how we should submit to God's will.  He fellowshipped with men, he ate with men, he traveled with men, he taught men, he lived as a man.  But make no mistake, Jesus Christ is God.  Christ forgave sins, Christ raised the dead, Christ healed the sick, Christ commanded demons, Christ miracously fed multitudes.  Christ affirmed his deity and gave undeniable examples of his deity, but didn't return to his glory until after he was crucified and rose.  Before his resurrection he chose to live as man, but fully connected to his divine Fatherly essence in heaven.  Based on that connection, he did the impossible and affirmed that he was God while still existing in a limited form as a man - a limited existance he choose.  As a man he maintained his connection with his divine essence through prayer, but his act of prayer was also an example for man to follow.  He lived as a man so that we may understand how to live and submit to God.  Why did he also choose this limited state as a man?  Simple, because God can't die (he is eternal), but a God who limits his form to that of a normal man can die.  He came as the perfect man, the perfect sacrifice that died for all forgiving all sins for those that claim him as their risen Lord and Savior.  After his resurrection his returned to his full glory and power as the divine Son of God that always existed at the right hand of the Father.  As the resurrected Son of God he was transformed and those closest to him didn't recognize him at first because he transformed into his divine state.  He then displayed the divine ability to instantly move from place to place as only God can and reclaimed his omniscient status as the Son of God who knows all things.....including the hour of his return.
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« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2012, 10:38:24 AM »

What do you mean you provided a verse? It says nothing of the sorts point blank "I Jesus I am God Almighty". Nothing.

So Jesus not knowing but God only knowing. Does not contradict Jesus being 'god'? So God is bipolar AND doesn't know everything according to you.

Wow... Don't you see this contradiction, irony, paradox, confusion you are believing in?

So God just pretended He didn't know while Jesus o_O
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« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2012, 10:41:35 AM »

What do you mean you provided a verse? It says nothing of the sorts point blank "I Jesus I am God Almighty". Nothing.

So Jesus not knowing but God only knowing. Does not contradict Jesus being 'god'? So God is bipolar AND doesn't know everything according to you.

Wow...

You didn't read my post above and yes I provided a verse....you're just denying it out of frustration. 
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« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2012, 10:43:29 AM »

You didn't read my post above and yes I provided a verse....you're just denying it out of frustration. 

What frustration LOL, you are the one that's frustrated as you have no verses that unequivocally state "I Jesus am God", "Hear oh Israel worship me Jesus".
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« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2012, 10:45:40 AM »

57 Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58 But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.

Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”

“He is worthy of death,” they answered.

67 Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68 and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

So no where in here is Jesus 'remaining silent' that they are saying HE IS GOD. No where. He claims he is the messiah, which the Jesus indeed rejected him of.
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« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2012, 10:48:55 AM »

What frustration LOL, you are the one that's frustrated as you have no verses that unequivocally state "I Jesus am God", "Hear oh Israel worship me Jesus".

Once again, from my post above:

That verse is undeniable, but just because it doesn't meet your exact request doesn't mean it doesn't completely affirm who he said he was.

See ahmed, just because I don't produce ahmed's required verse doesn't mean there aren't others verses that affirm Jesus being the Son of God.  That said, no I don't have ahmed's exact verse and wording, but that doesn't change who Christ affirmed he was in scripture.  If the standing requirement is I must produce ahmed scripture I'll first need a copy of ahmed's translation of the bible. 
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« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2012, 10:54:32 AM »

57 Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58 But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

59 The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.

Finally two came forward 61 and declared, “This fellow said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.’”

62 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 63 But Jesus remained silent.

The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

64 “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”[e]

65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66 What do you think?”

“He is worthy of death,” they answered.

67 Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him 68 and said, “Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?”

So no where in here is Jesus 'remaining silent' that they are saying HE IS GOD. No where. He claims he is the messiah, which the Jesus indeed rejected him of.

LOL!!  Reel it in ahmed, cause you are waaaaaay out there. 

I'm taking my family to the zoo now so have a good day!
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« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2012, 10:58:04 AM »

Paul never was with Jesus, nor did he live with him or anything. He just made claims to 'visions' and then went on his mission... after the fact that he was a jewish roman paid bounty hunter of other jews who were followers of Jesus.

When he confronted Jesus' disciples they rejected him and he condemned them for not following 'his gospel' (aka paul's gospel)

If you wipe out Paul from the picture, you get what true christianity is without the fradulent teachings of the church and paul.

Did Jesus forbid rabbis to marry? No, the church did. Hence priests who deprive themselves sexually thinking they are 'holier' because of that.
How do you know?

How old are you?

Were you there?

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« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2012, 11:07:53 AM »

Once again, from a theological perspective:

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

This was not written by Paul but by John who was a Disciple of Jesus.

The entire message and point of Jesus dying on the cross alone negates the need for any other 'prophets' and that only the Messiah will return again, the rest will be 'false prophets'.
Which is precisely why Mohammed claims Jesus used a doppelganger to die on the cross instead!
He realised already then that this was an issue.

The argument could also be used that the Mormons, Moonies and Jehovah's Witnesses has just as much credence as Mohammed as they also produced later 'prophets' to extend God's message.

Let's not forget that Mohammed came along 600 (six HUNDRED) years after Jesus.

Mohammed fused local Arabic pagan culture with that of the Monotheistic religions in order to unify the warring Arabs as a single unit.

I've read Edward Gibbon's chapter on Mohammed and the rise of Islam, and even though he respects Mohammed as an ambitious leader he still refers to him as a 'charlatan' for trying to convince the ignorant with promises of the flesh in the afterlife as well as images which would appeal to desert people such as green Oasis' of water and dates etc.

The rock that the Moslems pray to (even though they don't believe in idols...) was in fact first used for Pagan worship and is a black meteorite.
Becuase of this stones relevance to all Arabic peoples different Pagan religions at the time, it was seen as a unifying symbol and was incorporated into the new religion and political system which aimed to unify the Arab people.

Arabic culture and traditions were therefore infused into Mohamed's new religion which went on to launch a war of Conquest against the Eastern Roman Empire which in turn resulted in the Crusades due to an appeal from the Eastern Roman Emperor for European assistance to regain the territory from the invaders.
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« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2012, 11:10:58 AM »

You guys are cracking me up.

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« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2012, 11:14:39 AM »

You guys are cracking me up.



Note, I've deliberately moved to a 'theological stance' here  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2012, 11:24:57 AM »

How do you know?

How old are you?

Were you there?



Historical fact. All christian theologians know this. This dude was an oppressor of the followers of Jesus' and was a bounty hunter, hunting them down after Jesus left this world.

He even boasts about it in the bible as the bible includes his 'letters' and various writings. They have nothing to do with God. It's his own personal ramblings.
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