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Author Topic: Read the book of Matthew  (Read 8670 times)
scottt
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« Reply #150 on: January 17, 2013, 01:08:38 PM »

Everyone will bow to Jesus as king because GOD his father tells you to.
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loco
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« Reply #151 on: January 17, 2013, 01:19:45 PM »

Everyone will bow to Jesus as king because GOD his father tells you to.

Who said anything about just bow?  We are talking deity worship here.  If the Messiah is not God, that would be idolatry. 

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
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« Reply #152 on: January 17, 2013, 02:14:56 PM »

lol you're being pretty desperate, we already pointed out how unreliable the translations are and the verses themselves since whatever you're trying to 'prove' is totally destroyed by other verses.

Jesus is not God no matter how much you wish it to be true Smiley And to put further salt on the wound, Jesus called God Allah in Aramaic, the living spoken language of Palesitne.

No matter how many times you copy paste these verses, there's also verses which will demonstrate teh same for someone OTHER than Jesus. So who is here who?

I guess that's why the roman church fathers were so confused and argued over who Jesus is.

It's funny you quote the book of daniel, yet here we are, the Jews don't think the messiah is God either. Sooo... epic fail as usual.
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« Reply #153 on: January 17, 2013, 03:04:53 PM »


So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?


uhhh...you do realize that the word Messiah does not mean God right?  It's simply "anointed one" and is used for various kings.
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« Reply #154 on: January 17, 2013, 04:19:15 PM »

uhhh...you do realize that the word Messiah does not mean God right?  It's simply "anointed one" and is used for various kings.

Yes, bigbobs, I do realize that: Messiah = Christ = Anointed One.

If Jesus is the Messiah, but not God, why was he worshiped by his apostles? 

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

If the Messiah in Daniel 7:14 is not also God, then why is this Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #155 on: January 17, 2013, 04:21:57 PM »

lmao funny how he is not pasting those other verses which did not say worship in the orhtodox jewish bible because they said prostrated below, bowed down, fell to the ground.

Ah desperation.

That's why in islam we know God is one and we can point many verses that explicitly say who God is. You are struggling to justify your worship of a human being. Thin strings is what your arguments stand by.
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« Reply #156 on: January 17, 2013, 10:00:01 PM »

So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Why do you keep repasting this verse as though it forms some sort of evidence when I've already stated the below:


What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?  The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.  Similarly Abigal also fell on her face before David and bowed in 1 Samuel 25:23.  Does that make Abigail God?

The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.
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« Reply #157 on: January 17, 2013, 10:21:43 PM »



If Jesus is the Messiah, but not God, why was he worshiped by his apostles?  



what are you talking about? for 325 years.  yes thats: 3 centuries, 2 decades and 5 years! the first followers of Jesus DIDNT WORSHIP HIM OR CALL HIM GOD! they went to synagogues(just like Jesus did) and worshiped with the JEWS! they prayed just like them(just like Jesus did, and how muslims do today). its only MUCH MUCH AFTER(325 years!)! that certain people came up with this idea of the "trinity", and left the teachings of Jesus! Why is  it the Christians today dont worship like Jesus did? who decided, "ok were going to stop copying Jesus and invent our own way of praying?".

now I know as soon as Loco reads this he is going to go "Loco"(lol) and open Google and desperately find a rebuttal. If that dosent work, he will go with his regular tactic and spam quotes.
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« Reply #158 on: January 18, 2013, 07:54:05 AM »

what are you talking about? for 325 years.  yes thats: 3 centuries, 2 decades and 5 years! the first followers of Jesus DIDNT WORSHIP HIM OR CALL HIM GOD! they went to synagogues(just like Jesus did) and worshiped with the JEWS! they prayed just like them(just like Jesus did, and how muslims do today). its only MUCH MUCH AFTER(325 years!)! that certain people came up with this idea of the "trinity", and left the teachings of Jesus! Why is  it the Christians today dont worship like Jesus did? who decided, "ok were going to stop copying Jesus and invent our own way of praying?".

now I know as soon as Loco reads this he is going to go "Loco"(lol) and open Google and desperately find a rebuttal. If that dosent work, he will go with his regular tactic and spam quotes.

I'm sorry True, but this simply isn't correct...this is an incorrect position of nonChristian faiths and theologies labeled as "history".  The term "trinity" was coined in later centuries to help encompass the scriptural concept, but that concept was taught by Christ and his disciples and the apostles from the first days of Christianity.  "Early Christians" are often referred to as the churches of later centuries, but the early Christians were Peter, Paul, Mary, James, Timothy, etc....who communicated the message of God in the same manner as their Jewish predecessors via oral tradition.  

As I've posted repeatedly there is no biblical scripture outlining the specifics of bodily positions in prayer or frequency of prayer.  There is biblical scripture concerning content of pray and how not to prayer in a boastful, showy manner.   As believers we're supposed to pray and worship daily and rely on our God and Savior for all things, but there isn't a biblical schedule of 10am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, etc...that's a man-made, cultural tradition and/or theology outlined in nonChristian faiths.  Even if early Jews prayed exactly like Muslims today the tradition is simply man-made and not scriptural.   I thought we've clarified this already?  I don't believe my posts are being read completely....folks sooooo eager to retort with their own opinions and glossing posts quickly in anticipation of hitting that "Reply" button....well, so be it.
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« Reply #159 on: January 18, 2013, 09:37:35 AM »

I'm sorry True, but this simply isn't correct...this is an incorrect position of nonChristian faiths and theologies labeled as "history".  The term "trinity" was coined in later centuries to help encompass the scriptural concept, but that concept was taught by Christ and his disciples and the apostles from the first days of Christianity.  "Early Christians" are often referred to as the churches of later centuries, but the early Christians were Peter, Paul, Mary, James, Timothy, etc....who communicated the message of God in the same manner as their Jewish predecessors via oral tradition.  

As I've posted repeatedly there is no biblical scripture outlining the specifics of bodily positions in prayer or frequency of prayer.  There is biblical scripture concerning content of pray and how not to prayer in a boastful, showy manner.   As believers we're supposed to pray and worship daily and rely on our God and Savior for all things, but there isn't a biblical schedule of 10am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, etc...that's a man-made, cultural tradition and/or theology outlined in nonChristian faiths.  Even if early Jews prayed exactly like Muslims today the tradition is simply man-made and not scriptural.   I thought we've clarified this already?  I don't believe my posts are being read completely....folks sooooo eager to retort with their own opinions and glossing posts quickly in anticipation of hitting that "Reply" button....well, so be it.

It's not that we're not reading your posts, the issue is your posts say there is Bibical scriptural evidence of the Trinity yet you fail to provide any conclusive examples, only unclear verses which need to be interpreted in a specific, stretching, way.
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« Reply #160 on: January 18, 2013, 09:57:43 AM »

It's not that we're not reading your posts, the issue is your posts say there is Bibical scriptural evidence of the Trinity yet you fail to provide any conclusive examples, only unclear verses which need to be interpreted in a specific, stretching, way.

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to read my posts....I mean that.  Not every word is gold LOL, but I do my best to express my faitha and I try and read everyone else's post as well.

I understand what you're suggesting, but that's a purely subjective stance.  I know that either you or ahmed has stated that there is no way anyone would read the trinity out of biblical scripture, but man that just ain't so.   Further it's been said that the only way a believer comes to know the Trinity is if they're taught the Trinity, but that's true of a myriad of subjects and concepts (theological and non-theological).   Certainly many believers come to church and are educated for the first time in anything religious (including the concept of the Trinity), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't reach that conclusion on their own.  I know plenty of believers that found Christ and experienced the Holy Spirit in the solitude of their homes by themselves with nothing but a good ole KJV of the bible LOL!  That's why the bible is referred to as the living word because when you honestly seek God through his word his presence will be made evident and the word will come alive.  Again, ahmed would dismiss that notion as "emotional rhetoric", but that's nothing more than ignorance and arrogance.  Point is, we have outlined verse after verse of scripture and you don't accept it, you prefer Islam and that's your prerogative.  I could give you book after book from modern day theologians (ahmed would scoff at that as well) that have vast knowledge on the subject.  Still, the real truth is found between believer and God and revelation of the Holy Spirit therein....experiencing the facets of God for yourself and becoming the proof (again ahmed would dismiss this with a casual "emotional rhetoric" retort).
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« Reply #161 on: January 18, 2013, 10:20:09 AM »

Well, I appreciate you taking the time to read my posts....I mean that.  Not every word is gold LOL, but I do my best to express my faitha and I try and read everyone else's post as well.

I understand what you're suggesting, but that's a purely subjective stance.  I know that either you or ahmed has stated that there is no way anyone would read the trinity out of biblical scripture, but man that just ain't so.   Further it's been said that the only way a believer comes to know the Trinity is if they're taught the Trinity, but that's true of a myriad of subjects and concepts (theological and non-theological).   Certainly many believers come to church and are educated for the first time in anything religious (including the concept of the Trinity), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't reach that conclusion on their own.  I know plenty of believers that found Christ and experienced the Holy Spirit in the solitude of their homes by themselves with nothing but a good ole KJV of the bible LOL!  That's why the bible is referred to as the living word because when you honestly seek God through his word his presence will be made evident and the word will come alive.  Again, ahmed would dismiss that notion as "emotional rhetoric", but that's nothing more than ignorance and arrogance.  Point is, we have outlined verse after verse of scripture and you don't accept it, you prefer Islam and that's your prerogative.  I could give you book after book from modern day theologians (ahmed would scoff at that as well) that have vast knowledge on the subject.  Still, the real truth is found between believer and God and revelation of the Holy Spirit therein....experiencing the facets of God for yourself and becoming the proof (again ahmed would dismiss this with a casual "emotional rhetoric" retort).

No problem I always try to read posts, it's just the long copy-pasted articles which are sometimes posted that I skip over.  I accept that some followers interpret today's Bible as teaching the Trinity, however if the scripture was clear there would be no debate or different interpretations.  For example, the Qur'an clearly states that God is one and Muhammad, Jesus, etc. are prophets, so there is no debate over whether there's a triune God in Islam or whether any prophets are divine.  Similarly, in the Bible if there was clear scripture such as Jesus saying, "I am God, worhsip me, God is three in one" etc. we would not be having this debate.
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« Reply #162 on: January 18, 2013, 10:35:30 AM »

No problem I always try to read posts, it's just the long copy-pasted articles which are sometimes posted that I skip over.  I accept that some followers interpret today's Bible as teaching the Trinity, however if the scripture was clear there would be no debate or different interpretations.  For example, the Qur'an clearly states that God is one and Muhammad, Jesus, etc. are prophets, so there is no debate over whether there's a triune God in Islam or whether any prophets are divine.  Similarly, in the Bible if there was clear scripture such as Jesus saying, "I am God, worhsip me, God is three in one" etc. we would not be having this debate.

Well, admittedly I also skim the loooong articles too.

Yes, the bible also clearly teaches that God is one and only one, but the human life of Jesus Christ on earth and the Holy Spirit arriving at Pentecost after Christ's ascension showed a glimpse of God's transcendent essence and that's there's far more to God than what was known then or that will ever be known about God.....he stands above us in every way and we must be willing to accept that.  Despite his presence in our lives we can't comprehend him fully....we're finite and he's infinite. 
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« Reply #163 on: January 18, 2013, 01:21:29 PM »

Why do you keep repasting this verse as though it forms some sort of evidence when I've already stated the below:


Peace be unto you, my Muslim friends!  I've got other things to do now, but as Arnold would say: I'll be back.    Grin
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« Reply #164 on: January 18, 2013, 02:47:01 PM »

Peace be unto you, my Muslim friends!  I've got other things to do now, but as Arnold would say: I'll be back.    Grin

The same to you Smiley  Speaking of Arnold I'm seeing his new movie tonight - anyone else here watching it?
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« Reply #165 on: January 18, 2013, 03:12:59 PM »

lol its out tonight? eh.. dunno if i wana spend money on it in theater, he's just so old lol.
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« Reply #166 on: January 18, 2013, 04:09:48 PM »

Peace be unto you, my Muslim friends!  I've got other things to do now, but as Arnold would say: I'll be back.    Grin

the same to you my Christian friend.  Grin. make sure you come back soon, the debates not over! lol.
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« Reply #167 on: January 25, 2013, 09:29:47 AM »


So you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity?

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Why do you keep repasting this verse as though it forms some sort of evidence when I've already stated the below:

What about Peter?  He is "worshipped" in Acts 10:25 - does that make Peter God?


bigbobs,

When Peter was worshiped by Cornelius in Acts 10:25, Peter stopped Cornelius and rebuked him in the next verse saying "Stand up, I am only a man myself."

Here is the complete passage:

Acts 10:25-26
New International Version (NIV)

25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius met him and fell at his feet in reverence.
26 But Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.”

Likewise, when John worshiped the angel in Revelations 22:8, the angel stopped John and corrected him in verse 9 saying "Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!"

Revelation 22:8-9
New International Version (NIV)

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

I posted many Bible verses where people worshiped Jesus and Jesus never did stop, rebuke or correct them.  But then a_ahmed posted the same verses using the Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) to claim that because the English word "worship" was not used in this version of those verses, then those people were only bowing, kneeling or prostrating themselves before Jesus, but not in worship to him.

So now I quote the same Bible version that a_ahmed quoted:

Lukas 24:52
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

52 And they, having reverenced him in worship, returned to Yerushalayim with simcha gedolah.

The word translated to "woshipped" here and in referencing to people "worhsipping" Jesus is Proskuneo, which could also mean bowing to.
The true word for woship is latreuo, which appears 22 times in the New Testament but none towards Jesus.

bigbobs,

The Greek word Proskuneo also means Worship.  It is used many places in the New Testament in reference to worshiping God.  In Matthew 4:9, Proskuneo is used in reference to worshiping Satan, and in Matthew 4:10 in reference to worshiping God.

Matthew 4:9-10
9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’"

So my question stands:  If Jesus is not God, then why did he not stop, rebuke or correct people, like Peter did in Acts 10:25-26 and like the angel did in Revelation 22:8-9, when people called him God to his face or when they worshiped him?

And you agree that Jesus is the Messiah.  If the Messiah is not God, then why is the Messiah to be worshiped as deity by all people in Daniel 7:14?

Daniel 7:14
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)

And there was given Him (Moshiach) dominion, and honor, and sovereignty, that all people, Goyim, tongues, should pey-lammed-chet (see Dan 3:12, serve, reverence as deity Him (Moshiach). His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His (Messianic) Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
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« Reply #168 on: January 28, 2013, 10:44:26 AM »

Not feeling the need or motivation to reply to loco in this thread, as he keeps repasting the same verses like a broken record.
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« Reply #169 on: January 28, 2013, 11:43:16 AM »

Not feeling the need or motivation to reply to loco in this thread, as he keeps repasting the same verses like a broken record.

Don't give up so easily, my Muslim friend!  I have kindly replied to your posts.  Come back when you feel like it and have the motivation to kindly reply to my post above.  BTW, neither you nor any other of our Muslim friends here has yet addressed Daniel 7:14.  

Peace be unto you!
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« Reply #170 on: January 28, 2013, 12:21:29 PM »

Don't give up so easily, my Muslim friend!  I have kindly replied to your posts.  Come back when you feel like it and have the motivation to kindly reply to my post above.  BTW, neither you nor any other of our Muslim friends here has yet addressed Daniel 7:14.  Peace be unto you!

What is there to address?
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« Reply #171 on: January 28, 2013, 12:38:55 PM »

What is there to address?


Alright, just come back when you feel like it and when you have the motivation.  Then you can read my post again and kindly reply as I have kindly replied to yours.
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« Reply #172 on: January 28, 2013, 01:53:23 PM »

Alright, just come back when you feel like it and when you have the motivation.  Then you can read my post again and kindly reply as I have kindly replied to yours.

My reply has nothing to do being kind or not, as I've stated before I often don't understand what exactly your quotes and bolded texts are supposed to mean or what you're trying to get me to address?  This is because you simply paste quotes without explaining your interpretation of them.  I haven't found this with any of the others on here who I've discussed religion with. Then when I ask what your point is you usually just repost it and make a remark suggesting that I'm simply trying to avoid answering you.
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« Reply #173 on: January 28, 2013, 04:23:24 PM »

My reply has nothing to do being kind or not, as I've stated before I often don't understand what exactly your quotes and bolded texts are supposed to mean or what you're trying to get me to address?  This is because you simply paste quotes without explaining your interpretation of them.  I haven't found this with any of the others on here who I've discussed religion with. Then when I ask what your point is you usually just repost it and make a remark suggesting that I'm simply trying to avoid answering you.

Why don't you take my post above and tell me one point at a time what you do not understand and I will gladly explain. 
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« Reply #174 on: January 28, 2013, 04:27:59 PM »

Why don't you take my post above and tell me one point at a time what you do not understand and I will gladly explain. 

You asked me to address Daniel 7:14, I responded asking what you'd like me to address, and in the few replies you've posted you still haven't told me.  Huh
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