5-Point Guide To The Fiscal Showdown

[Primemuscle]

5-Point Guide To The Fiscal Showdown

1. The “Fiscal Cliff” Is A Myth. As Paul Krugman put it, “The looming prospect of spending cuts and tax increases isn’t a fiscal crisis. It is, instead, a political crisis brought on by the G.O.P.’s attempt to take the economy hostage.”[1] Republicans are manufacturing this crisis to pressure Democrats to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and accept painful cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

2. The Bush Tax Cuts Finally End December 31. If Congress does nothing, the ax will fall on all the Bush tax cuts on New Year’s Eve.[2] Then, on January 1, the public pressure on John Boehner and House Republicans to extend the middle-class tax cuts (already passed by the Senate and waiting to be signed by President Obama) will become irresistible.[3] So the middle-class tax cut will eventually get renewed, and we’ll have $823 billion more revenue from the top 2% to do great things with.[4]

3. The Sequester. The sequester is another political creation, forced on Democrats by Republicans in exchange for lifting the debt ceiling last year to avoid crashing our economy.[5] It’s a set of cuts (50% to a bloated military budget and 50% to important domestic programs) designed to make both Republicans and Democrats hate it so much that they’d never let it happen.[6] And the cuts can be reversed weeks or months into 2013 without causing damage.[7]

4. The Big Three. Nothing happens to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits on January 1—unless Republicans force painful cuts to beneficiaries in exchange for tax increases on the wealthy, which are going to happen anyway if Congress does NOTHING.[8] So, there’s literally no reason benefits cuts should be part of the discussion right now.

5. We Should Be Talking About Jobs. The real crisis Americans want Congress to fix is getting people back to work. And with just a fraction of that $823 billion from the wealthiest 2%, we could create jobs for more than 20,000 veterans and pay for the 300,000 teachers and 52,000 first responders, which our communities so desperately need.[9] That’s not to mention jobs from investing in clean energy and our national infrastructure.

[whork]

5-Point Guide To The Fiscal Showdown

1. The “Fiscal Cliff” Is A Myth. As Paul Krugman put it, “The looming prospect of spending cuts and tax increases isn’t a fiscal crisis. It is, instead, a political crisis brought on by the G.O.P.’s attempt to take the economy hostage.”[1] Republicans are manufacturing this crisis to pressure Democrats to extend the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and accept painful cuts to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

2. The Bush Tax Cuts Finally End December 31. If Congress does nothing, the ax will fall on all the Bush tax cuts on New Year’s Eve.[2] Then, on January 1, the public pressure on John Boehner and House Republicans to extend the middle-class tax cuts (already passed by the Senate and waiting to be signed by President Obama) will become irresistible.[3] So the middle-class tax cut will eventually get renewed, and we’ll have $823 billion more revenue from the top 2% to do great things with.[4]

3. The Sequester. The sequester is another political creation, forced on Democrats by Republicans in exchange for lifting the debt ceiling last year to avoid crashing our economy.[5] It’s a set of cuts (50% to a bloated military budget and 50% to important domestic programs) designed to make both Republicans and Democrats hate it so much that they’d never let it happen.[6] And the cuts can be reversed weeks or months into 2013 without causing damage.[7]

4. The Big Three. Nothing happens to Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits on January 1—unless Republicans force painful cuts to beneficiaries in exchange for tax increases on the wealthy, which are going to happen anyway if Congress does NOTHING.[8] So, there’s literally no reason benefits cuts should be part of the discussion right now.

5. We Should Be Talking About Jobs. The real crisis Americans want Congress to fix is getting people back to work. And with just a fraction of that $823 billion from the wealthiest 2%, we could create jobs for more than 20,000 veterans and pay for the 300,000 teachers and 52,000 first responders, which our communities so desperately need.[9] That’s not to mention jobs from investing in clean energy and our national infrastructure.

Good post.

[George Whorewell]

Ahem.

(1) The fiscal cliff is the result of Obama and his Communist party refusing to do anything to confront reality. We do not have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem. Anyone who listens to what Paul Krugman says has zero creditbility. Taxing the so called rich to raise a paltry 90 billion dollars when we are 16 trillion in debt and counting is so beyond stupid and meaningless-- it doesn't even merit a serious response.  

(2) Ok. That's great. The democrats haven't passed a budget in how many years and counting? What did Obama say when the Bush tax cuts were going to expire the last time? You don't raise taxes in a recession--- or something to that effect?

(3) The sequester "forced" on the Democrats?    Does anyone even bother to try printing the facts about anything anymore? No matter.  such as yourself are too lazy to investigate the truth.  The military budget falls under the banner of discretionary spending. Discretionary spending is 33% of the federal budget. Of that 33%, military spending is around 25%. So in actuality, out military/ defense equals around 20% of the budget.

(4) The big three- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are broke. Busted. Finished. Trillions in unfunded liabilities are sitting there waiting to swallow up whatever remains of the United States if the deficit doesn't do the job first. 70 percent of the fedral budget is mandatory spending-- almost all of which is locked into these three programs; So in actuality, that bloated military budget is chump change in comparison.

(5) AND I AM TYPING IN CAPS SO ITS NICE AND CLEAR-- WE DO NOT NEED MORE FUCKING GOVERNMENT WORKERS. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING OR CREATE ANYTHING. BIGGER GOVERNMENT= SMALLER PRIVATE SECTOR= LESS TAX MONEY= LESS WEALTH= LESS JOB CREATION= HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT. THE STIMULUS WAS COMPLETELY SQUANDERED ON GOVERNMENT WORKERS AND OBAMAS SOLUTION FOR THE SHITTY ECONOMY IS TO RAISE TAXES SO THAT MORE MONEY CAN BE USED TO HIRE MORE GOVERNMENT WORKERS? ONLY A FUCKING IDIOT COULD POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT PLAN WILL WORK. IF IT DIDN'T WORK THE FIRST TIME, WHY ON EARTH WOULD IT WORK THE SECOND TIME?  




PS- private sector unemployment is much higher than public sector unemployment.

[Primemuscle]

Ahem.

(1) The fiscal cliff is the result of Obama and his Communist party refusing to do anything to confront reality. We do not have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem. Anyone who listens to what Paul Krugman says has zero creditbility. Taxing the so called rich to raise a paltry 90 billion dollars when we are 16 trillion in debt and counting is so beyond stupid and meaningless-- it doesn't even merit a serious response.  

(2) Ok. That's great. The democrats haven't passed a budget in how many years and counting? What did Obama say when the Bush tax cuts were going to expire the last time? You don't raise taxes in a recession--- or something to that effect?

(3) The sequester "forced" on the Democrats?    Does anyone even bother to try printing the facts about anything anymore? No matter. Morons such as yourself are too lazy to investigate the truth.  The military budget falls under the banner of discretionary spending. Discretionary spending is 33% of the federal budget. Of that 33%, military spending is around 25%. So in actuality, out military/ defense equals around 20% of the budget.

(4) The big three- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are broke. Busted. Finished. Trillions in unfunded liabilities are sitting there waiting to swallow up whatever remains of the United States if the deficit doesn't do the job first. 70 percent of the fedral budget is mandatory spending-- almost all of which is locked into these three programs; So in actuality, that bloated military budget is chump change in comparison.

(5) AND I AM TYPING IN CAPS SO ITS NICE AND CLEAR-- WE DO NOT NEED MORE FUCKING GOVERNMENT WORKERS. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING OR CREATE ANYTHING. BIGGER GOVERNMENT= SMALLER PRIVATE SECTOR= LESS TAX MONEY= LESS WEALTH= LESS JOB CREATION= HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT. THE STIMULUS WAS COMPLETELY SQUANDERED ON GOVERNMENT WORKERS AND OBAMAS SOLUTION FOR THE SHITTY ECONOMY IS TO RAISE TAXES SO THAT MORE MONEY CAN BE USED TO HIRE MORE GOVERNMENT WORKERS? ONLY A FUCKING IDIOT COULD POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT PLAN WILL WORK. IF IT DIDN'T WORK THE FIRST TIME, WHY ON EARTH WOULD IT WORK THE SECOND TIME?  




PS- private sector unemployment is much higher than public sector unemployment.

Not sure you are right about private verses public sector unemployment, but if you are, then who do you propose to lay off to even things up? ...Police? ...Firefighters? ....Teachers? ...Military ...CIA? ...FBI? ....Other essential non-elected government workers?

Notice that I did not resort to name calling. I don't view you as a moron. Perhaps you are a little uninformed or misinformed. But unlike many people, you have at least given these things some consideration.

Truthfully, if you think you have the answers, you should get yourself elected, so you opinion can pull some weight. It doesn't take much effort to grouse or second guess what government is doing on an Internet forum. It also doesn't change anything.

[AbrahamG]

Not sure you are right about private verses public sector unemployment, but if you are, then who do you propose to lay off to even things up? ...Police? ...Firefighters? ....Teachers? ...Military ...CIA? ...FBI? ....Other essential non-elected government workers?

Notice that I did not resort to name calling. I don't view you as a moron. Perhaps you are a little uninformed or misinformed. But unlike many people, you have at least given these things some consideration.

Truthfully, if you think you have the answers, you should get yourself elected, so you opinion can pull some weight. It doesn't take much effort to grouse or second guess what government is doing on an Internet forum. It also doesn't change anything.

Trust your instincts.  He's not right about a goddamn thing. .

[Hugo Chavez]

glad you guys could read the rest of GW's post.  He got my eye roll at "communist party"

[whork]

Ahem.

(1) The fiscal cliff is the result of Obama and his Communist party refusing to do anything to confront reality. We do not have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem. Anyone who listens to what Paul Krugman says has zero creditbility. Taxing the so called rich to raise a paltry 90 billion dollars when we are 16 trillion in debt and counting is so beyond stupid and meaningless-- it doesn't even merit a serious response.  

(2) Ok. That's great. The democrats haven't passed a budget in how many years and counting? What did Obama say when the Bush tax cuts were going to expire the last time? You don't raise taxes in a recession--- or something to that effect?

(3) The sequester "forced" on the Democrats?    Does anyone even bother to try printing the facts about anything anymore? No matter. Morons such as yourself are too lazy to investigate the truth.  The military budget falls under the banner of discretionary spending. Discretionary spending is 33% of the federal budget. Of that 33%, military spending is around 25%. So in actuality, out military/ defense equals around 20% of the budget.

(4) The big three- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are broke. Busted. Finished. Trillions in unfunded liabilities are sitting there waiting to swallow up whatever remains of the United States if the deficit doesn't do the job first. 70 percent of the fedral budget is mandatory spending-- almost all of which is locked into these three programs; So in actuality, that bloated military budget is chump change in comparison.

(5) AND I AM TYPING IN CAPS SO ITS NICE AND CLEAR-- WE DO NOT NEED MORE FUCKING GOVERNMENT WORKERS. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING OR CREATE ANYTHING. BIGGER GOVERNMENT= SMALLER PRIVATE SECTOR= LESS TAX MONEY= LESS WEALTH= LESS JOB CREATION= HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT. THE STIMULUS WAS COMPLETELY SQUANDERED ON GOVERNMENT WORKERS AND OBAMAS SOLUTION FOR THE SHITTY ECONOMY IS TO RAISE TAXES SO THAT MORE MONEY CAN BE USED TO HIRE MORE GOVERNMENT WORKERS? ONLY A FUCKING IDIOT COULD POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT PLAN WILL WORK. IF IT DIDN'T WORK THE FIRST TIME, WHY ON EARTH WOULD IT WORK THE SECOND TIME?  




PS- private sector unemployment is much higher than public sector unemployment.

I see a lot of namecalling but no solution(and just typing spend less is not a solution).

Try again George this time with less crying and more specifics. Thanks.

[George Whorewell]

Not sure you are right about private verses public sector unemployment, but if you are, then who do you propose to lay off to even things up? ...Police? ...Firefighters? ....Teachers? ...Military ...CIA? ...FBI? ....Other essential non-elected government workers?

Notice that I did not resort to name calling. I don't view you as a moron. Perhaps you are a little uninformed or misinformed. But unlike many people, you have at least given these things some consideration.

Truthfully, if you think you have the answers, you should get yourself elected, so you opinion can pull some weight. It doesn't take much effort to grouse or second guess what government is doing on an Internet forum. It also doesn't change anything.

hahahaha. You're not sure if I'm right, so you'll continue to wallow in ignorance and not bother to figure out if I'm right. You'll post stupid articles but you can't counter any of my arguments. Last but not least, you will continue to rely on nonsense to formulate your opinions. Bravo-- your in sync with the majority of the American electorate. Not a single thing I said is in dispute. The entirety of the article you posted is false. 110% false.  As to the rest of what you wrote, it takes even less effort to rely on lies spoonfed to you by equally delusional and intellectually dishonest drones. I exacted enough effort to back up my point of view with facts that I verified myself. That's a lot more than I can say for you or any of the other idiots who responded in this thread.

[whork]

hahahaha. You're not sure if I'm right, so you'll continue to wallow in ignorance and not bother to figure out if I'm right. You'll post stupid articles but you can't counter any of my arguments. Last but not least, you will continue to rely on nonsense to formulate your opinions. Bravo-- your in sync with the majority of the American electorate. Not a single thing I said is in dispute. The entirety of the article you posted is false. 110% false.  As to the rest of what you wrote, it takes even less effort to rely on lies spoonfed to you by equally delusional and intellectually dishonest drones. I exacted enough effort to back up my point of view with facts that I verified myself. That's a lot more than I can say for you or any of the other idiots who responded in this thread.

So you conclude its a fact that Obama and his communist party is to blame for the fiscal cliff?

[George Whorewell]

I see a lot of namecalling but no solution(and just typing spend less is not a solution).

Try again George this time with less crying and more specifics. Thanks.

My prior post wasn't a budget plan XXXX It was a response to an inaccurate article filled with falsehoods. To cut spending, Lets start with taking a sledge hammer to the EPA, FCC, HUD; pick your alphabet soup of government agency acronyms. Second, cut all non essential social welfare spending and ALL foreign aid. Third, get our troops out of Afghanistan permanently starting right now (and napalm the entire country as we leave). Fourth, end all forms of corporate welfare and government subsidies-- for deadbeats who don't pay their mortgages, big oil, for farmers via ethanol, green energy frauds such as Solyndra, buying electric cars, etc.  That's a good start.

[whork]

My prior post wasn't a budget plan idiot. It was a response to an inaccurate article filled with falsehoods. To cut spending, Lets start with taking a sledge hammer to the EPA, FCC, HUD; pick your alphabet soup of government agency acronyms. Second, cut all non essential social welfare spending and ALL foreign aid. Third, get our troops out of Afghanistan permanently starting right now (and napalm the entire country as we leave). Fourth, end all forms of corporate welfare and government subsidies-- for deadbeats who don't pay their mortgages, big oil, for farmers via ethanol, green energy frauds such as Solyndra, buying electric cars, etc.  That's a good start.

I agree with most of this but the EPA etc?

You dont want clean air and food for our children?

[George Whorewell]

I agree with most of this but the EPA etc?

You dont want clean air and food for our children?

LOL you think because of the EPA we have clean air and food for our children?

I think most libs have been lobotomized.

[whork]

LOL you think because of the EPA we have clean air and food for our children?

I think most libs have been lobotomized.

They have a part in keeping the air and food clean.

The changes made to for instance refrigiators(freon) is why we can still enjoy the sun for 5 min without getting cancer.

The EPA has done a helluva lot more than big business has so i dont see your argument here.

I think most republicans have been castrated neutered.

[Primemuscle]

hahahaha. You're not sure if I'm right, so you'll continue to wallow in ignorance and not bother to figure out if I'm right. You'll post stupid articles but you can't counter any of my arguments. Last but not least, you will continue to rely on nonsense to formulate your opinions. Bravo-- your in sync with the majority of the American electorate. Not a single thing I said is in dispute. The entirety of the article you posted is false. 110% false.  As to the rest of what you wrote, it takes even less effort to rely on lies spoonfed to you by equally delusional and intellectually dishonest drones. I exacted enough effort to back up my point of view with facts that I verified myself. That's a lot more than I can say for you or any of the other idiots who responded in this thread.

Some of you posted cannot be disputed because it is simply your opinion. One is entitled to have an opinion. However, opinions are not fact. For example, it may be your opinion that President Obama is a Communist; it is not a fact.

As for your statement about public sector unemployment verses private sector unemployment, you've provide inadequate information and cited no resources. Are you speaking about actual numbers of public and private sector employees or in percentages? Since there a far more private sector employees, it stands to reason a greater number of them would be unemployed. The fact is that only about 8% of the workforce works for the government. This means about 92% of the workforce works in the private sector.

What I posted is also indisputable since it was an opinion about the fiscal cliff situation. Nothing in that post suggested it was fact. It does have a huge element of logic though.

[Mr.1derful]

The real cliff will be when the world stops loaning the U.S money.  You can't keep raising the debt ceiling or starting up the printing presses as has been the norm.  Massive spending cuts are needed, but are not going to happen with Obama at the helm.  He'll keep spending, the Fed will continue to keep interest rates unnaturally low, while printing and debasing the dollar further. The can will get kicked down the road again.   Private spending doesn't even help stimulate for the most part, when virtually everything bought is made in China.  QE2 failed, so let's try QE3.  The U.S has become a debtor nation and a welfare State.  "Change, change."  You'd better hang on to your change, you're going to need it.  Rome is burning.  Nixon boned everyone in 1971.

  

 
 

[tbombz]

Ahem.

(1) The fiscal cliff is the result of Obama and his Communist party refusing to do anything to confront reality. We do not have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem. Anyone who listens to what Paul Krugman says has zero creditbility. Taxing the so called rich to raise a paltry 90 billion dollars when we are 16 trillion in debt and counting is so beyond stupid and meaningless-- it doesn't even merit a serious response.  

Would cutting 90 billion dollars from an entitlement also be stupid and meaningless?

(2) Ok. That's great. The democrats haven't passed a budget in how many years and counting? What did Obama say when the Bush tax cuts were going to expire the last time? You don't raise taxes in a recession--- or something to that effect?

the democrats have the ability to pass a budget without the republicans?

(3) The sequester "forced" on the Democrats?    Does anyone even bother to try printing the facts about anything anymore? No matter.  such as yourself are too lazy to investigate the truth.  The military budget falls under the banner of discretionary spending. Discretionary spending is 33% of the federal budget. Of that 33%, military spending is around 25%. So in actuality, out military/ defense equals around 20% of the budget.


(4) The big three- Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid are broke. Busted. Finished. Trillions in unfunded liabilities are sitting there waiting to swallow up whatever remains of the United States if the deficit doesn't do the job first. 70 percent of the fedral budget is mandatory spending-- almost all of which is locked into these three programs; So in actuality, that bloated military budget is chump change in comparison.

the military budget is just about as big as the social security budget and the medicare/medicaid budget. each of them is right about 750 billion per yearr.

(5) AND I AM TYPING IN CAPS SO ITS NICE AND CLEAR-- WE DO NOT NEED MORE FUCKING GOVERNMENT WORKERS. THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T MAKE ANYTHING OR CREATE ANYTHING. BIGGER GOVERNMENT= SMALLER PRIVATE SECTOR= LESS TAX MONEY= LESS WEALTH= LESS JOB CREATION= HIGHER UNEMPLOYMENT. THE STIMULUS WAS COMPLETELY SQUANDERED ON GOVERNMENT WORKERS AND OBAMAS SOLUTION FOR THE SHITTY ECONOMY IS TO RAISE TAXES SO THAT MORE MONEY CAN BE USED TO HIRE MORE GOVERNMENT WORKERS? ONLY A FUCKING IDIOT COULD POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT PLAN WILL WORK. IF IT DIDN'T WORK THE FIRST TIME, WHY ON EARTH WOULD IT WORK THE SECOND TIME?  


a bigger government does not equal a smaller private sectory. economics is not a zero sum game.



PS- private sector unemployment is much higher than public sector unemployment.

private sector job growth is in the hundreds of thousands every month while public sector job losses are in the tens of thousands each month.

[Soul Crusher]

The real cliff will be when the world stops loaning the U.S money.  You can't keep raising the debt ceiling or starting up the printing presses as has been the norm.  Massive spending cuts are needed, but are not going to happen with Obama at the helm.  He'll keep spending, the Fed will continue to keep interest rates unnaturally low, while printing and debasing the dollar further. The can will get kicked down the road again.   Private spending doesn't even help stimulate for the most part, when virtually everything bought is made in China.  QE2 failed, so let's try QE3.  The U.S has become a debtor nation and a welfare State.  "Change, change."  You'd better hang on to your change, you're going to need it.  Rome is burning.  Nixon boned everyone in 1971.

  

 
 

QFT

[George Whorewell]

Some of you posted cannot be disputed because it is simply your opinion. One is entitled to have an opinion. However, opinions are not fact. For example, it may be your opinion that President Obama is a Communist; it is not a fact.

As for your statement about public sector unemployment verses private sector unemployment, you've provide inadequate information and cited no resources. Are you speaking about actual numbers of public and private sector employees or in percentages? Since there a far more private sector employees, it stands to reason a greater number of them would be unemployed. The fact is that only about 8% of the workforce works for the government. This means about 92% of the workforce works in the private sector.

What I posted is also indisputable since it was an opinion about the fiscal cliff situation. Nothing in that post suggested it was fact. It does have a huge element of logic though.

<sigh> The facts and figures I cited are not refutable. I never said the number of private sector employees unemployed was greater to prove a point. That is obvious. I am reffering to the rates of unemployment, and once again, it is NOT disputable. The rate is of private sector unemployment is demonstrably higher. That is a fact, not my opinion. And, lets put on our thinking caps for a moment and think logically. How is it that 8% of the workforce should dictate the redistribution of literally trillions of dollars to (paraphrasing you) put more government workers back to work when there is a higher rate of unemployment among the remaining 92% of the economy? Where do you think the money to "put government workers back to work" comes from? How is it possible that you don't see something wrong with that?

[Primemuscle]

<sigh> The facts and figures I cited are not refutable. I never said the number of private sector employees unemployed was greater to prove a point. That is obvious. I am reffering to the rates of unemployment, and once again, it is NOT disputable. The rate is of private sector unemployment is demonstrably higher. That is a fact, not my opinion. And, lets put on our thinking caps for a moment and think logically. How is it that 8% of the workforce should dictate the redistribution of literally trillions of dollars to (paraphrasing you) put more government workers back to work when there is a higher rate of unemployment among the remaining 92% of the economy? Where do you think the money to "put government workers back to work" comes from? How is it possible that you don't see something wrong with that?

Sigh....so much double talk.

[George Whorewell]

Sigh....so much double talk.

Please expand on your answer and highlight "doubletalk".

In the alternative, it would be more appropriate to be translate your response as meaning (a) you have nothing to say (b) you got your ass handed to you because you don't know what you're talking about and (c) you have no rebuttal to anything I posted in this thread.

[Primemuscle]

Please expand on your answer and highlight "doubletalk".

In the alternative, it would be more appropriate to be translate your response as meaning (a) you have nothing to say (b) you got your ass handed to you because you don't know what you're talking about and (c) you have no rebuttal to anything I posted in this thread.

Honestly, I can't be bothered. Some folks are just lost causes. I have better things to do with my time then to spend it arguing with you. As for your doubletalk, I'll leave that for others to discern if my opinion is correct or not.

[George Whorewell]

LOL

Epic thread backfire followed by an untimely retreat.

Way to defend your point of view.

You can't respond because you have nothing to say.

[Primemuscle]

LOL

Epic thread backfire followed by an untimely retreat.

Way to defend your point of view.

You can't respond because you have nothing to say.

Retreat? Hardly.

No need to defend what I posted about the fiscal cliff since it was merely someone else's opinion which I happen to think is interesting.

Choosing to say nothing and having nothing to say are not the same.