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Author Topic: Where Do You Stand? With the Rich or Middle Class?  (Read 5583 times)
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« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2012, 01:52:47 PM »

so generating revenue never helps?

where the fuck do you guys get your economics from?

Trickle down economics has failed everytime, the latest of it being bush.

Spending cuts are severly needed in the defense budget, it's so bloated it's hilarious.
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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2012, 01:57:06 PM »

I luckily come a from a wealthy family, and can say I have a very good education (I am an upper class Chilean).

Taxing the shit out of the rich is fair because of distributive justice (think John Rawls and his two criteria for social development).  Not only that, the ultra rich have idle wealth that generates no extra goodness neither to them (as they are unable to sepnd every penny they save up) nor to society because the taxation is low.

"What makes someone like yourself think you're entitled to someone elses wealth. What makes you believe that government knows what to do with money more than the wealthy?"

This is how I know you have never read a book on theory of right or political philosphy, its much much more than MY MMONEYYZZZ I DO WHATEVA WANT WIV IT WAHHH WAHHH
spoken just like someone who hasn't worked his ass off for his wealth but rather had it handed it to him.
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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2012, 01:58:44 PM »

anyone for taxing the crap out of the rich is just a bitter loser in my opinion.

I realize the tax laws are favorable to corporations. The common sentiment among the business owners I know is "If you're paying taxes you haven't taken advantage of the tax laws". You really don't need to "raise" the taxes on the wealthy, you just need to close the loopholes.
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« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2012, 02:06:36 PM »

I luckily come a from a wealthy family, and can say I have a very good education (I am an upper class Chilean).

Taxing the shit out of the rich is fair because of distributive justice (think John Rawls and his two criteria for social development).  Not only that, the ultra rich have idle wealth that generates no extra goodness neither to them (as they are unable to sepnd every penny they save up) nor to society because the taxation is low.

"What makes someone like yourself think you're entitled to someone elses wealth. What makes you believe that government knows what to do with money more than the wealthy?"

This is how I know you have never read a book on theory of right or political philosphy, its much much more than MY MMONEYYZZZ I DO WHATEVA WANT WIV IT WAHHH WAHHH

I don't know the economics of that country, so this is a moot point. You've bought into socialism, it doesn't work. Europe is economically taking a shit and this president (for whatever reason) wants to follow europe or in his case Venezuela. In this country you can create wealth even if came from a poor upbringing. If someone is wealthy and has idle wealth (no such thing unless you keep it under your mattress) and even if it is "idle" it's their money that THEY earned. You came from a wealthy family, good for you but did you create your own wealth?? Chances are (if you think the way you do) you have had damn near everything handed to you because you think you're entitled. You're entitled to you're parents wealth that they created (unless they inherited that too) when they pass, but you sure as hell are not entitled to someone elses wealth.
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2012, 02:08:41 PM »

so generating revenue never helps?

where the fuck do you guys get your economics from?

Trickle down economics has failed everytime, the latest of it being bush.

Spending cuts are severly needed in the defense budget, it's so bloated it's hilarious.

Read my first post. It's a short term solution. It doesn't work in the long run. Eventually it has to be paid back.
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« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2012, 02:14:30 PM »

Depends on where this "proof" came from.

It came from an very well known economics professor at Oxford University (number 1 college in the world) in England. It did not come from an American liberal/democratic.

Plain and simple, Trickle Down Economics does not work.
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« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2012, 02:18:39 PM »

It came from an very well known economics professor at Oxford University (number 1 college in the world) in England. It did not come from an American liberal/democratic.

Plain and simple, Trickle Down Economics does not work.


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« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2012, 02:20:29 PM »

so generating revenue never helps?

where the fuck do you guys get your economics from?

Trickle down economics has failed everytime, the latest of it being bush.

Spending cuts are severly needed in the defense budget, it's so bloated it's hilarious.

The media has told you trickle down doesn't work. Economists say it does. Reality says it does. Read up on what is happening in London ATM. 50% of the wealthy (over a million) are getting out of dodge to avoid the new tax rates. How exactly is that going to help anyone?
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« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2012, 02:26:02 PM »

The media has told you trickle down doesn't work. Economists say it does. Reality says it does. Read up on what is happening in London ATM. 50% of the wealthy (over a million) are getting out of dodge to avoid the new tax rates. How exactly is that going to help anyone?

you realize the irony of your post do you not?
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« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2012, 02:26:34 PM »

The media has told you trickle down doesn't work. Economists say it does. Reality says it does. Read up on what is happening in London ATM. 50% of the wealthy (over a million) are getting out of dodge to avoid the new tax rates. How exactly is that going to help anyone?
It's called being a 'tax exile,' and it's not new, at all. You need to research your British tax history. Try around WWII.
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« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2012, 02:29:18 PM »



by Daniel J. Mitchell, Ph.D.

After President George W. Bush sent Congress an outline of his tax reform plan on February 8, some critics immediately began to attack it as a return to what they portray as the fiscally irresponsible policies of the Reagan Administration. According to these commentators, Congress should scale back--if not outright reject--President Bush's tax reform proposals because they are based on a period when the wealthy received excessive tax cuts and revenue was wasted on defense even though most Americans struggled in poverty. This is a revisionist view of recent history that ignores reality and denies the fact that President Reagan's sound policies and determination deserve much of the credit for the current economic picture. Congress should embrace President Bush's tax reform plan as a responsible return to the most successful economic policy of the 20th century.

President Ronald Reagan's record includes sweeping economic reforms and deep across-the-board tax cuts, market deregulation, and sound monetary policies to contain inflation. His policies resulted in the largest peacetime economic boom in American history and nearly 35 million more jobs. As the Joint Economic Committee reported in April 2000:2

    In 1981, newly elected President Ronald Reagan refocused fiscal policy on the long run. He proposed, and Congress passed, sharp cuts in marginal tax rates. The cuts increased incentives to work and stimulated growth. These were funda-mental policy changes that provided the foundation for the Great Expansion that began in December 1982.

    As Exhibit 1 shows, the economic record of the last 17 years is remarkable, particularly when viewed against the backdrop of the 1970s. The United States has experienced two of the longest and strongest expansions in our history back to back. They have been interrupted only by a shallow eight-month downturn in 1990-91.



    Chart 1
    Even with the growing surplus, however, a small but vocal faction in Congress opposes any policies that would allow taxpayers to keep more of their own money through real tax cuts and that generally would shift power from the government to the people. This attempt to rewrite history should not be surprising. Proponents of additional government spending try to make the Reagan boom appear to be a bust because they fear that Reagan's success will help President Bush build popular support for lower taxes, further deregulation, and reduced government spending. But their rhetoric is easily countered by the evidence.

    history confirms the soundness of the Reagan, and now Bush, approach to economic policy. Under President Reagan, federal revenues increased even with tax cuts, federal spending did not decrease, the country experienced the longest period of sustained growth during peacetime in its history, and the rich paid more taxes proportionately than they had before the tax cuts were implemented.
    HOW DID THE REAGAN TAX CUTS AFFECT THE U.S. TREASURY?

    Many critics of reducing taxes claim that the Reagan tax cuts drained the U.S. Treasury. The reality is that federal revenues increased significantly between 1980 and 1990:

        Total federal revenues doubled from just over $517 billion in 1980 to more than $1 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was a 28 percent increase in revenue.3

        As a percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP), federal revenues declined only slightly from 18.9 percent in 1980 to 18 percent in 1990.4
        Revenues from individual income taxes climbed from just over $244 billion in 1980 to nearly $467 billion in 1990.5 In inflation-adjusted dollars, this amounts to a 25 percent increase.

    HOW DID REAGAN'S POLICIES AFFECT FEDERAL SPENDING?

    Although critics continue to focus on President Reagan's budget "cuts," federal spending rose significantly during the 1980s:

        Federal spending more than doubled, growing from almost $591 billion in 1980 to $1.25 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was an increase of 35.8 percent.6

        As a percentage of GDP, federal expenditures grew slightly from 21.6 percent in 1980 to 21.8 percent in 1990.7

        Contrary to popular myth, while inflation-adjusted defense spending increased by 50 percent between 1980 and 1989, it was curtailed when the Cold War ended and fell by 15 percent between 1989 and 1993. However, means-tested entitlements, which do not include Social Security or Medicare, rose by over 102 percent between 1980 and 1993, and they have continued climbing ever since.8
        Total spending on all national security programs never equaled domestic spending, even when Social Security, Medicare, and net interest are excluded from domestic totals. In addition, national security spending fell during the Administration of the senior President Bush, while domestic spending increased in both mandatory and discretionary accounts.9 (See Chart 1.)




    HOW DID REAGAN'S POLICIES AFFECT ECONOMIC GROWTH?

    Despite the steep recession in 1982--brought on by tight money policies that were instituted to squeeze out the historic inflation level of the late 1970s--by 1983, the Reagan policies of reducing taxes, spending, regulation, and inflation were in place. The result was unprecedented economic growth:

        This economic boom lasted 92 months without a recession, from November 1982 to July 1990, the longest period of sustained growth during peacetime and the second-longest period of sustained growth in U.S. history. The growth in the economy lasted more than twice as long as the average period of expansions since World War II.10

        The American economy grew by about one-third in real inflation-adjusted terms. This was the equivalent of adding the entire economy of East and West Germany or two-thirds of Japan's economy to the U.S. economy.11
        From 1950 to 1973, real economic growth in the U.S. economy averaged 3.6 percent per year. From 1973 to 1982, it averaged only 1.6 percent. The Reagan economic boom restored the more usual growth rate as the economy averaged 3.5 percent in real growth from the beginning of 1983 to the end of 1990.12

    HOW DID REAGAN'S POLICIES AFFECT THE FEDERAL TAX BURDEN?

    Perhaps the greatest myth concerning the 1980s is that Ronald Reagan slashed taxes so dramatically for the rich that they no longer have paid their fair share. The flaw in this myth is that it mixes tax rates with taxes actually paid and ignores the real trend of taxation:

        In 1991, after the Reagan rate cuts were well in place, the top 1 percent of taxpayers in income paid 25 percent of all income taxes; the top 5 percent paid 43 percent; and the bottom 50 percent paid only 5 percent.13 To suggest that this distribution is unfair because it is too easy on upper-income groups is nothing less than absurd.

        The proportion of total income taxes paid by the top 1 percent rose sharply under President Reagan, from 18 percent in 1981 to 28 percent in 1988.14

        Average effective income tax rates were cut even more for lower-income groups than for higher-income groups. While the average effective tax rate for the top 1 percent fell by 30 percent between 1980 and 1992, and by 35 percent for the top 20 percent of income earners, it fell by 44 percent for the second-highest quintile, 46 percent for the middle quintile, 64 percent for the second-lowest quintile, and 263 percent for the bottom quintile.15
        These reductions for the lowest-income groups were so large because President Reagan doubled the personal exemption, increased the standard deduction, and tripled the earned income tax credit (EITC), which provides net cash for single-parent families with children at the lowest income levels. These changes eliminated income tax liability altogether for over 4 million lower-income families.16

    Critics often add in the Social Security payroll tax and argue that the total federal tax burden shifted more to lower-income groups and away from upper-income groups; but President Reagan's changes were in the income tax, not in the Social Security payroll tax. The payroll tax was imposed by proponents of big government over the past 50 years, and it is they, not Ronald Reagan, who should be held accountable for its distributional effects.

    Nevertheless, even if one counts the Social Security payroll tax, the share of total federal taxes increased between 1980 and 1989 for the following groups:

        For the top 1 percent of taxpayers, from 12.9 percent in 1980 to 15.4 percent in 1989;

        For the top 5 percent of taxpayers, from 27.3 percent in 1980 to 30.4 percent in 1989; and
        For the top 20 percent of taxpayers, from 56.1 percent in 1980 to 58.6 percent in 1989.

    On the other hand, the share of total federal taxes, if one includes the Social Security payroll tax, declined for four groups:

        For the second-highest 20 percent of taxpayers, from 22.2 percent in 1980 to 20.8 percent in 1989;

        For the middle 20 percent of taxpayers, from 13.2 percent in 1980 to 12.5 percent in 1989;

        For the second-lowest 20 percent of taxpayers, from 6.9 percent in 1980 to 6.4 percent in 1989; and
        For the lowest 20 percent of taxpayers, from 1.6 percent in 1980 to 1.5 percent in 1989.17

    CONCLUSION

    No matter how advocates of big government try to rewrite history, Ronald Reagan's record of fiscal responsibility continues to stand as the most successful economic policy of the 20th century. His tax reforms triggered an economic expansion that continues to this day. His investments in national security ended the Cold War and made possible the subsequent defense spending reductions that are largely responsible for the current federal surpluses. His efforts to restrain the expansion of federal government helped to limit the growth of domestic spending.

    If Reagan's critics had been willing to work with him to limit domestic spending even further and to control the growth of entitlements, the budget would have been balanced five to ten years sooner and without the massive tax increase imposed in 1993. Today, Members of Congress from across the political spectrum should stand on the evidence and defend the Reagan record.

    To the extent that President Bush's proposals mirror those of Ronald Reagan, his plan should be a welcome strategy to lower the tax burden on Americans and to make the system more responsible. If the advocates of big government in Congress cooperate with President Bush rather than merely continuing to fund obsolete, wasteful, and redundant programs, there is no limit to the prosperity that Americans can generate.

    Peter Sperry is the Grover M. Hermann Fellow in Federal Budgetary Affairs in the Thomas A. Roe Institute for Economic Policy Studies at The Heritage Foundation.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2001/03/the-real-reagan-economic-record
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« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2012, 02:32:28 PM »



Exactly. Because that is the first thing big companies do is hire the common man, instead of pocketing the cash  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2012, 02:33:08 PM »

Still lol'ing at "Carlos Marx"
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« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2012, 02:34:04 PM »

JESUS said..."It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:25)

Republican Party the party of many Christians of all denominations need to refer to their Bibles.  They are hypocrites of the first order.  Hell awaits them for their worship of money.

"You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3).
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« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2012, 02:35:41 PM »

The idea is that if you give the rich tax breaks their businesses will have more money and will lead to the creation of jobs. This is called "Trickle Down Economics" which has been proven NOT to work time and time again.

yes. in reality it "trickles down" into a new Mercedes in their driveway, and the guy who made 80K a year before they outsourced his job to India now makes 8 bucks an hour to wash it every Sunday.
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« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2012, 02:37:02 PM »

yes. in reality it "trickles down" into a new Mercedes in their driveway, and the guy who made 80K a year before they outsourced his job to India now makes 8 bucks an hour to wash it every Sunday.

So what? They earned it.
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« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2012, 02:37:37 PM »

My point is tax the rich until they don't exist... are not rich anymore, or just simply leave...does not work. It has never worked to pit the rich against the poor and it never will. Small example in simple numbers... I know it's over simplified.

Guy makes 100k.
Guy makes 10k and bitches about it.
Gov steps into takes 50k from the first guy to pay for shit for the other guy.
First guy now makes 50k.
Second guy still makes 10k but feels so much better cause he fucked over the other guy.
Second complains more cause its still not fair.
Gov takes 40k more from guy one.
Now both make 10k... nice and fair.
One problem. Now they both need services and there is no one left making 100k to take money from.


On a larger real life scale you get Greece out of this. Try to say there is no more money for the leeches and they will riot when their free shit gets cut off. If you think with your head for one second and stop the ... fuck them they are rich... mentality you would see this. It just makes you feel better because fuck them. It does less then zero good for you but you feel better.
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« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2012, 02:39:58 PM »

I see a lot of lazy, self-entitled people in this thread that would give their left nut to be in the same place a "rich" person is. BTW, haha @ $250k being rich.
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« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2012, 02:40:07 PM »

yes. in reality it "trickles down" into a new Mercedes in their driveway, and the guy who made 80K a year before they outsourced his job to India now makes 8 bucks an hour to wash it every Sunday.

And that Mercedes will need to be washed, maintained, etc. which in turn stimulates the economy and add jobs. I mean the salesman that sells it and the people who build that Mercedes aren't the mega-rich.
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« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2012, 02:49:11 PM »

Exactly. Because that is the first thing big companies do is hire the common man, instead of pocketing the cash  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
I thing you mis-quoted.    Undecided
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« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2012, 02:51:10 PM »

I see a lot of lazy, self-entitled people in this thread that would give their left nut to be in the same place a "rich" person is. BTW, haha @ $250k being rich.

JESUS said..."It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:25)

Republican Party the party of many Christians of all denominations need to refer to their Bibles.  They are hypocrites of the first order.  Hell awaits them for their worship of money.

"You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3).


Since you're not rich, remind your rich, Christian, Republican, hypocrite pals that are...  If you are truly a Christian, you know this to be true.
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« Reply #46 on: November 30, 2012, 02:51:20 PM »

So what? They earned it.
You are the most morally corrupt 'Christian' I've ever noted.  Grin
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« Reply #47 on: November 30, 2012, 02:56:50 PM »

JESUS said..."It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:25)

Republican Party the party of many Christians of all denominations need to refer to their Bibles.  They are hypocrites of the first order.  Hell awaits them for their worship of money.

"You shall have no other gods before me." (Exodus 20:3).


Since you're not rich, remind your rich, Christian, Republican, hypocrite pals that are...  If you are truly a Christian, you know this to be true.

You've been awfully preachy today, my deeply tanned friend.
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« Reply #48 on: November 30, 2012, 02:58:01 PM »

We don't have a taxing problem, we have a spending problem. I wake up in the morning and take a dump. I pay taxes on the toilet paper, the magazine I read, the toilet itself, the water when I flush it. Everything you do and have is taxed. Then they tell you to pay more at the end of the year, when they already took have of your income from every paycheck.

The key to getting out of debt is to eliminate not add to. If you have debt you need to stop going out to eat, you need to stop drinking beers on friday night, you need to cut the smoking habit, you need to fix your car and not go out and buy a new one, you need to stop buying new clothes.

How many people had debt and said to themselves. Damn I need a better paying job so I can get rid of this. Then they started making more money only to watch their debt grow. Just as many people that make 50k a year are in debt as people that make 150k a year. Its the society that we live in we are taught to believe more is the answer.

The government needs to cut back, not tax more. This country is in more debt then ever, so lets increase food stamps and lets now create universal health care. LOL

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« Reply #49 on: November 30, 2012, 02:59:15 PM »

You are the most morally corrupt 'Christian' I've ever noted.  Grin

Sure, want to compare charitable donations? I for one, don't think Jesus wanted people to be poor. There's a difference between freely giving and stealing.
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