Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?

[Skeletor]

I think it varies with muscle groups. Hamstrings and deadlifts I don't do high reps. Squats I usually do high reps with the occasional low reps. Otherwise i stay roughly in the 8-10 rep range.

[tbombz]

Have some meth and chase it down with his own urine?

 

[tbombz]

my thoughts on thread subject matter=

periodization
staying away from failure
mix of rep ranges
focus on form

[Coach is Back!]

The whole time under tension thing (IMHO) is so overblown.  How often do powerlifters use it?  How many bodybuilders use it?  Usually its the Poliquin-drones.  

I agree with this. Although for teaching purposes we will use a 3/0/1 or 2/0/1 tempo especially on bench and box squats. Milos is a Poliquin disciple so what does that tell you?

[Ropo]

Is it possible (naturally)?

My joints are going to shit and I can't go heavy. I can barely tolerate light weights but it's the cards I have to play with right now.

Been to doctor, did all kinds of tests..blood tests, etc. It's not anything but plain old tendonitis.

I figure I'll go light, up the volume, the sets, and keep going to failure.

Can one build strength/mass this way, or is it a lost cause?

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.

If you are clever enough, you can build mass like that. For example, instead of doing one exercise to total failure, you choose three for same muscle and do them as super set just like you say, 12-15-20 reps. This way you can exhaust the muscle, pump it full of blood, and what else you need. If you are going to train your legs for example, you warm up by doing few sets of squats with moderate weight, then leg extension with 12 reps, leg press for 15 slow reps, and hack squat 20 slow reps. After this, if your legs doesn't have decent pump, repeat the super set. For hamstrings and calves similar combination, and there you are sitting on the floor crying because you can't walk anymore, not at least few days..

[disco_stu]

Look at this chart, then look at my rep schemes. What do you see that is similar?

LOADING    DELOADING AND INTENSIFICATION
                    
     Volume Phase    Option 1: Deload and Peak 3x3    OR    Option 2: Pure Deload
     Weeks 1-4    Weeks 5-9         Weeks 5-6 or Extended
                    
     Monday    Monday         Monday
Squat    5x5    3x3         3x3
Bench    1x5    1x3         3x3
Row    1x5    1x3         3x3
                    
     Wednesday    Wednesday         Wednesday or Thursday
Squat    5x5 (10-20% < than Monday)    Drop This Lift         3x3 with 70% of Monday
Deadlift    5x5    3x3         3x3
Military or Incline    5x5    3x3         3x3
Pull-ups or Chins    5x5    3x3         3x3
                    
     Friday    Friday         
Squat    1x5    1x3         
Bench    5x5    3x3         
Row    5x5    3x3         

Mine...

1-3 Power
5-8 Strength
8-12 hypertrophy
12+ muscular endurance

This varies but usually by a rep or so.

This particular thread deals with bodybuilding which in turn is isolation. In athletics, you want hypertrophy, rep schemes from 5-8 will achieve this but understand, they are suggesting bodybuilding. Starr's reps schemes are based on strength and power which today we realize that based on energy systems, ATP-CP (power) Glycolitic (strength) and Aerobic (endurance).

rofl. "deloading"...

do you mean unloading?

keep posting, you are pretty funny. want to hear more of your philosophies.

[disco_stu]

my thoughts on thread subject matter=

periodization
staying away from failure
mix of rep ranges
focus on form

 A BIG NO!.

mixing rep ranges means you exhaust your nervous system trying to optimise responses. spend at least 6 weeks on any rep scheme, range, before changing it, and even then, dont make the change drastic. (i.e. dont go from 6 reps to 20. )

[Coach is Back!]

rofl. "deloading"...

do you mean unloading?

keep posting, you are pretty funny. want to hear more of your philosophies.

No, deloading. Wait, lemme guess. Flex.magazine is your workout bible?

[deceiver]

what do you really mean by "progress"?

how much progression do you really see?  are you regularly adding weight to the bar, or reps?  if so, for how many years?  months?  weeks?

i think anything will work for a year or two, maybe three.  after that, no technique or periodization scheme is going to help.

I'll give you an example. For 2 months I trained with 100kg for reps. I started doing 8 reps which was far from my max and I added about one rep or so every training. At the end I benched 100kg for 16 reps.

Then I did something stupid - I switched to heavy weights and surprise, surprise - 120kg was crushing me. Then I realised what I was doing was just fucking stupid. I reduced weight to 105kg, 3x5 and added 2.5kg each workout. Voila, after couple of weeks I checked my 1 rep max and I benched 140kg at 80kg bodyweight. Nothing to write home about, but I'm no genetic freak and certainly no bench press freak My chest also got slightly bigger.

Same way with squats, I can squat 160kgx5 but I start cycle with 120kg and add 10kg every week or even less. Generally, the less you add each week, the better, but I tend to be stupid and impatient.

[Metabolic]

Look at this chart, then look at my rep schemes. What do you see that is similar?

LOADING    DELOADING AND INTENSIFICATION
                    
     Volume Phase    Option 1: Deload and Peak 3x3    OR    Option 2: Pure Deload
     Weeks 1-4    Weeks 5-9         Weeks 5-6 or Extended
                    
     Monday    Monday         Monday
Squat    5x5    3x3         3x3
Bench    1x5    1x3         3x3
Row    1x5    1x3         3x3
                    
     Wednesday    Wednesday         Wednesday or Thursday
Squat    5x5 (10-20% < than Monday)    Drop This Lift         3x3 with 70% of Monday
Deadlift    5x5    3x3         3x3
Military or Incline    5x5    3x3         3x3
Pull-ups or Chins    5x5    3x3         3x3
                    
     Friday    Friday         
Squat    1x5    1x3         
Bench    5x5    3x3         
Row    5x5    3x3         

Mine...

1-3 Power
5-8 Strength
8-12 hypertrophy
12+ muscular endurance

This varies but usually by a rep or so.

This particular thread deals with bodybuilding which in turn is isolation. In athletics, you want hypertrophy, rep schemes from 5-8 will achieve this but understand, they are suggesting bodybuilding. Starr's reps schemes are based on strength and power which today we realize that based on energy systems, ATP-CP (power) Glycolitic (strength) and Aerobic (endurance).

BOTH OF THESE ROUTINES ARE BULKING "BODYBUILDING" ROUTINES YOU DUMMY, LYLE MCDONALD AND PENDLAY "TRAIN" BODYBUILDERS TOO.  BOTH OF THESE ROUTINES ARE FOR BODYBUILDING BECAUSE WHEN YOU LEAVE DRUGS ASIDE STRENGTH=MASS FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES.

And I think I need to explain myself better here because you cant seem to understand:

this:
1-3 Power
5-8 Strength
8-12 hypertrophy
12+ muscular endurance

Is full of conceptual mistakes and broscience.  Strength = mass, power is a concept that IS NOT mere muscular response, it has a HUGE coordination aspect (what is called "cns training").  hypertrophy can be achieved in several ways (either actual protein muscle gain or glucose accumulation).


ALSO, THERE IS A REASON THESE TRAINERS PUBLISH BOOKS, ARE CITED ON STUDIES, CONDUCT STUDIES, BECAUSE THEY ARE REAL TRAINERS.

[GoneAway]

Is it possible (naturally)?

My joints are going to shit and I can't go heavy. I can barely tolerate light weights but it's the cards I have to play with right now.

Been to doctor, did all kinds of tests..blood tests, etc. It's not anything but plain old tendonitis.

I figure I'll go light, up the volume, the sets, and keep going to failure.

Can one build strength/mass this way, or is it a lost cause?

Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit drinking.

Make sure to warmup thoroughly before every single new exercise. Give your joints the best chance at making it through each set pain free.

You can build good size with 12 reps. Probably with 15 reps too. Just eat right, get enough rest and workout regularly and you should look like a weight-trained person eventually.

[Coach is Back!]

BOTH OF THESE ROUTINES ARE BULKING "BODYBUILDING" ROUTINES YOU DUMMY, LYLE MCDONALD AND PENDLAY "TRAIN" BODYBUILDERS TOO.  BOTH OF THESE ROUTINES ARE FOR BODYBUILDING BECAUSE WHEN YOU LEAVE DRUGS ASIDE STRENGTH=MASS FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES.

And I think I need to explain myself better here because you cant seem to understand:

this:
1-3 Power
5-8 Strength
8-12 hypertrophy
12+ muscular endurance

Is full of conceptual mistakes and broscience.  Strength = mass, power is a concept that IS NOT mere muscular response, it has a HUGE coordination aspect (what is called "cns training").  hypertrophy can be achieved in several ways (either actual protein muscle gain or glucose accumulation).


ALSO, THERE IS A REASON THESE TRAINERS PUBLISH BOOKS, ARE CITED ON STUDIES, CONDUCT STUDIES, BECAUSE THEY ARE REAL TRAINERS.

Dude, seriously. You must think I just started doing this shit.

[Coach is Back!]

BOTH OF THESE ROUTINES ARE BULKING "BODYBUILDING" ROUTINES YOU DUMMY, LYLE MCDONALD AND PENDLAY "TRAIN" BODYBUILDERS TOO.  BOTH OF THESE ROUTINES ARE FOR BODYBUILDING BECAUSE WHEN YOU LEAVE DRUGS ASIDE STRENGTH=MASS FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES.

And I think I need to explain myself better here because you cant seem to understand:

this:
1-3 Power
5-8 Strength
8-12 hypertrophy
12+ muscular endurance

Is full of conceptual mistakes and broscience.  Strength = mass, power is a concept that IS NOT mere muscular response, it has a HUGE coordination aspect (what is called "cns training").  hypertrophy can be achieved in several ways (either actual protein muscle gain or glucose accumulation).


ALSO, THERE IS A REASON THESE TRAINERS PUBLISH BOOKS, ARE CITED ON STUDIES, CONDUCT STUDIES, BECAUSE THEY ARE REAL TRAINERS.

I'm just going to leave it at "you don't get it"!

[Metabolic]

I'm just going to leave it at "you don't get it"!

Yep, I dont get it, you, who say HIIT cardiovascular exercise  is anabolic do get it though.

Jesus  Trainers like you that have been doing this for years and years infest gyms worldwide, I really couldnt care any less that you have been doing this for years.

[anabolichalo]

the only thing that fucking matters is PEDs on top of common sense training and "diet"

[Coach is Back!]

Yep, I dont get it, you, who say HIIT cardiovascular exercise  is anabolic do get it though.

Jesus   Trainers like you that have been doing this for years and years infest gyms worldwide, I really couldnt care any less that you have been doing this for years.

I've put my credentials and who I've trained up here enough for you to figure it out. You're a dumb fuck to think just because someone had some papers (and had the time to do it, but thats for another thread) published means they are the be all to end all. I don't train bodybuilders, I quit doing that in the early 90's. BTW, it was MY trainers that were in this months NSCA Strength and Conditioning Research Journal (Published Research) at Cal State Fullerton (#1 Kinese dept in the country). These trainers were my interns before their employment with me. Again, STFU unless you want to keep going. BTW, the research is This months (Dec, Measuring Power) Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. Dr. Jared Coburn, the author, also trains with me. Thanks for coming, be sure to tip your waiter on the way out.

[mass243]

why is this representative of female gender with over 16k posts messing with men's business here 

[Archer77]

 

The thing is, in the 70's mentzers urine would have been highly anabolic.  Equivalent perhaps to anavar. 

[Beach Muscles]

why is this representative of female gender with over 16k posts messing with men's business here 

Penis envy

[Skeletor]

why is this representative of female gender with over 16k posts messing with men's business here 

Lol.

[D_1000]

I've put my credentials and who I've trained up here enough for you to figure it out. You're a dumb fuck to think just because someone had some papers (and had the time to do it, but thats for another thread) published means they are the be all to end all. I don't train bodybuilders, I quit doing that in the early 90's. BTW, it was MY trainers that were in this months NSCA Strength and Conditioning Research Journal (Published Research) at Cal State Fullerton (#1 Kinese dept in the country). These trainers were my interns before their employment with me. Again, STFU unless you want to keep going. BTW, the research is This months (Dec, Measuring Power) Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. Dr. Jared Coburn, the author, also trains with me. Thanks for coming, be sure to tip your waiter on the way out.

This "Deleted One" bullshit is nothing but annoying.

[snx]

You know it's funny that you mention this cause despite what all the BS bad rap juice gets my joints are practically indestructible while on the juice. While I am off it is almost unbearable, sore joints all over the place and I can barely workout for this reason alone I will be on juice till I die. I have tried (while off juice) everything and have never found anything that works.

You know onetime, I suspect most folks glossed over your post. But it's bang on. I was riddled with joint pain from years of powerlifting naturally. Tried to move to a higher rep training program, and it still hurt like crazy. I was ready to give up.

Started some low dose test (500mg/week), now my joints feel like new. I still lift light weights, high reps, for the pump.

I'm never going off. I'll run this for the rest of my life. It's not enough to turn me into Mr. O. Just enough to make me feel 18 again. I'm about the same size/strength/cut I was when I was 25 and looked my best.

I truly believed all these guys who claim all this Rippetoe/Starr/Bompa stuff. I believe it to be true. But in real life, most men aren't genetically capable of lifting like that for very long without getting hurt. Then you spend 30 minutes before each workout doing stupid stretching, activation, foam rolling, etc...just so you can get thru 6 sets of bench press. Then you're spending time with an ART guy, spending money on chiropractors...for what? It's stupid unless you're an athlete.

Want to know what works, and will spare your joints? 500mg of test, light weights, lots of reps, a decently clean diet with lots of veggies and water. I wish I'd started years ago. I know I've killed my joints...I just hope the test (and decca when I switch) help rebuild them a bit to make up for my stupid youthful pursuits.

[anabolichalo]

You know onetime, I suspect most folks glossed over your post. But it's bang on. I was riddled with joint pain from years of powerlifting naturally. Tried to move to a higher rep training program, and it still hurt like crazy. I was ready to give up.

Started some low dose test (500mg/week), now my joints feel like new. I still lift light weights, high reps, for the pump.

I'm never going off. I'll run this for the rest of my life. It's not enough to turn me into Mr. O. Just enough to make me feel 18 again. I'm about the same size/strength/cut I was when I was 25 and looked my best.

I truly believed all these guys who claim all this Rippetoe/Starr/Bompa stuff. I believe it to be true. But in real life, most men aren't genetically capable of lifting like that for very long without getting hurt. Then you spend 30 minutes before each workout doing stupid stretching, activation, foam rolling, etc...just so you can get thru 6 sets of bench press. Then you're spending time with an ART guy, spending money on chiropractors...for what? It's stupid unless you're an athlete.

Want to know what works, and will spare your joints? 500mg of test, light weights, lots of reps, a decently clean diet with lots of veggies and water. I wish I'd started years ago. I know I've killed my joints...I just hope the test (and decca when I switch) help rebuild them a bit to make up for my stupid youthful pursuits.

a lot of truth in here

i'm still fairly young and realized this before it got out of hand

a lot of resistance from my peers who think i have become a pussy

per haps

or maybe i just realized that low rep squatting with locking out knees is really tough on the joints

[a_ahmed]

I always wear a belt and knee wraps no matter what weight i lift, could give a rat's ass what others think.. but i like my knees (which are already sorta destroyed from years of martial arts abuse no way going back around that now) and i like my back ...

Just a thought... I see no point in being a hero and using no safety gear... sure you could work up to that, get stronger and still feel safe.. but... meh i'll play it safe that way.. and still outlift the next guy who thinks he's macho for using no safety gear I'm slowly getting older too.. I wana do this into old age, until the day I die. I love BB, lifting, etc... To me that's a non-brainer... common sense.

[doriancutlerman]

Have some meth and chase it down with his own urine?

You forgot the filterless Camels!   (In all fairness, Mike told me he started smoking in the looney bin, which would've been the mid/late 80s -- partly because ALL crazy people usually smoke, but also because his idols Rand and Art Jones were chimneys.)

So, yeah, during his heydey, urine and some amphetamines was it.  And Deca, which he held in VERY high regard.