if insulin inhibits fat loss...

[animal1991]

How does one lose fat when eating carbs in a calorie deficit? I understand that it comes down to calories in vs calories out, but hear me out.

If you consume carbs 6x a day with your meals then each time insulin is released and glycogen is never depleted which brings you out of a "fat burning" state.

Now if you compare this to a low carb / keto diet one is in a fat burning state 24/7 because there is near zero release of insulin and glycogen levels get depleted.

So which approach is better? In both approached fat loss does occur, but wouldn't you say keto is a better approach since you are in a prime fat burning state?

And also where does insulin sensitivity come into play? If you are not very insulin sensitive and you eat carbs to try and lose fat, wouldn't you're body just release a huge amount of insulin and just dump into fat cells instead of muscle and also vice versa?

[Moen]

You are burning fat 24-7 regardless of which diet one is on.

[animal1991]

You are burning fat 24-7 regardless of which diet one is on.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it but its been bothering me. Haha

[El Diablo Blanco]

hit the treadmill.  problem solved.

[OTHstrong]

How does one lose fat when eating carbs in a calorie deficit? I understand that it comes down to calories in vs calories out, but hear me out.

If you consume carbs 6x a day with your meals then each time insulin is released and glycogen is never depleted which brings you out of a "fat burning" state.

Now if you compare this to a low carb / keto diet one is in a fat burning state 24/7 because there is near zero release of insulin and glycogen levels get depleted.

So which approach is better? In both approached fat loss does occur, but wouldn't you say keto is a better approach since you are in a prime fat burning state?

And also where does insulin sensitivity come into play? If you are not very insulin sensitive and you eat carbs to try and lose fat, wouldn't you're body just release a huge amount of insulin and just dump into fat cells instead of muscle and also vice versa?

This is why you see bodybuilders nowadays fat on stage and they are never peeled anymore, very sad, they eat carbs with every meal cause they are on boat loads of insulin and they rely on clen, t3, dnp, gh and fucken 20 more chemicals to burn fat, unbelievable, fucken bodybuilders suck today.

[snx]

Maybe I'm just overthinking it but its been bothering me. Haha

95%, if not more, of the weight loss battle comes down to calories in vs out. There is a littany of research showing that diet macros are not the main driving force behind weight loss.

The body is a very efficient machine - it will use what you give it to thrive if it can.

Training with weights is far more anabolic/anti-catabolic than protein in the diet. It's very possible to grow muscle on a low protein/low calorie diet, if the training stimulus is substantial. Ideal? No, but not impossible and actually quite probable.

A high carb, hypo-caloric diet plan will lead to rapid weight loss. Just ask Chris Aceto...he's been applying the scientific principles of the theory, in practicality, for years with great success.

To sum: there is both strong scientific, and practical experience, that it can work very well.

The hooplah about insulin is much ado about nothing, if you are in fact hypo-caloric.

Beware the fads the average huckster in this industry would have you believe in order to buy their tapes/DVDs/newsletters. You don't need the minutia of specifically timed macros.

Just eat less than you need, exercise more than you are now, and you will lose weight. It is inevitable that it will happen.

[OTHstrong]

not only that, they just dont diet as clean as they used to.

and the extra amount of drugs they take makes sure theres some more water and fat retention

This is very scary actually, for my show in 08 I could not get rid of some water and I believe it was the result of some compounds I was on, I was taking test e up until the 3 week out mark and taking anadrol right til the last week, some can get away with it but I can not. Now these guys that do insulin are building visceral fat and taking so many extra compounds and are eating to many carbs before their show.

and the worse part of it is that almost anyone that takes insulin is in denial on how shredded they are, or rather lack of

[OTHstrong]

yeah i know a guy who "needs" insulin, "but only" after heavy leg and back workouts.never seems to get really shredded no matter what.

the test e i think is best to go off of entirely 3 weeks out.id even go as far and say its best to go off everything 2-3 weeks out, this will ensure theres the minimum amount of water retention.i know sounds crazy, but ive seen and experience it working.

Oh I will swich my test e right at 10 weeks out to prop, I used to be obsessed with checking my test levels on and off gear and to my surprise I cut everything cold turkey one time and 2 months after my last test e shot my test levels were still high.

[snx]

This is very scary actually, for my show in 08 I could not get rid of some water and I believe it was the result of some compounds I was on, I was taking test e up until the 3 week out mark and taking anadrol right til the last week, some can get away with it but I can not. Now these guys that do insulin are building visceral fat and taking so many extra compounds and are eating to many carbs before their show.

and the worse part of it is that almost anyone that takes insulin is in denial on how shredded they are, or rather lack of

I had to use a lot of diazide at my last show. I ran sustanon and anadrol right up until the day of the show.

What really helped, though, was cytadren the last 3 weeks before the show. Wiped out the estrogen and with it, a lot of water.

But yeah, I was taking a diazide every few hours. The rebound water rention was quite amazing. Scary in fact.

[OTHstrong]

I had to use a lot of diazide at my last show. I ran sustanon and anadrol right up until the day of the show.

What really helped, though, was cytadren the last 3 weeks before the show. Wiped out the estrogen and with it, a lot of water.

But yeah, I was taking a diazide every few hours. The rebound water rention was quite amazing. Scary in fact.

Interesting, ya I guess it can work for some.

yes, they will still be high enough after 2 months(not recovered, but stil high), its weird, bc if one considers how its released as ester it doesnt make mathematical sense.

but i mean cutting out even the propionate and the other notorious dieting drugs.

and orals.

maybe not all mass will still be there, but no doubt more cuts

I know this sounds like bro science but some test e can be hardened and clogged up in the muscle then released later, I mean only a few weeks later, but it can hurt come contest time, so for me no more test e pre contest and I will cut the prop 3 weeks out, the anadrol 2 weeks out. Tren a, primo, winny, var and masteron can go right up to the show. I wouldn`t trust eq, deca, or drol, to risky.

[Krankenstein]

How does one lose fat when eating carbs in a calorie deficit? I understand that it comes down to calories in vs calories out, but hear me out.
you answered your own question...you are in calorie defincit

If you consume carbs 6x a day with your meals then each time insulin is released and glycogen is never depleted which brings you out of a "fat burning" state.
again, caloric deficit.  Just because thats a role of insulin does not mean that once a carb is consumed that it goes to fat sotres

Now if you compare this to a low carb / keto diet one is in a fat burning state 24/7 because there is near zero release of insulin and glycogen levels get depleted.
Protein does stimulate insulin response

So which approach is better? In both approached fat loss does occur, but wouldn't you say keto is a better approach since you are in a prime fat burning state?
the one you mentally can handle and the one you find easier to deal with

And also where does insulin sensitivity come into play? If you are not very insulin sensitive and you eat carbs to try and lose fat, wouldn't you're body just release a huge amount of insulin and just dump into fat cells instead of muscle and also vice versa?
Again, vilification of insulin.  Insulin sensitivity comes into play in BOAT LOADS of carbs, no exercise, over and over again.  The insulin response with a meal is dependant on what you eat at that meal

[doison]

Inhibit and prohibit are not the same, fuckface

[arce1988]

  Great thread

[Dokey111]

"champion" bodybuilding has always been a reflection of underlying societal values.  A mirror if you will.

ergo, now the world is fat, false and sucks in general.

[Big Chiro Flex]

Doc, I thought protein alone will stimulate an insulinogenic response?

I knew BCAAs will stimulate insulin release via its bi-phasic effect. Wouldn't something like isolate do this as well?

[Danny-Boy]

if u want breakdown.. think of the concepts...  when your body is in a starved state... the hormonal ratio of Insulin:Glucagon is low( even though u don't eat sugars-insulin is still present but in non-factoral amounts).. Here, many key enzymes within the body are phosphorylated and lead to a cascade of catabolic effects.. The body must produce GLUCOSE from different sources of the body in order for the peripheral tissues to be provided w/ efficient energy (ATP)    Breakdown of protein (muscle) cells is necessary to provide key amino acids that will in turn be re-formed into glucose via the pathway of Gluconeogenesis..Glycoge n storage from the liver is broken down via Glycogenolysis.  After a couple of days(usually 2-3 days-depending on activity).. Ketogenesis should take place(this is another pathway to provide energy-esp to the brain-which relies completely on aerobic metabolism)      Your body has a great way of adapting and conserving protein...  Muscles have a great way of wanting to spare themselves even during times of starvation... Flattened appearance of muscles does not mean they are eaten away..(depleted look)     Well anyways... Back to consumption of Sugars which stimulate Insulin release from beta cells within pancreas... Here, the ratio of Insulin:Glucagon   is higher.. (Glucagon-> hormone relaying message to rest of body that it is starving and must provide other means to provide energy metabolism)   This causes a cascade of de-phosphorylative events  -- Here, the body is more more efficient in protein synthesis and other means of anabolic events  (ie. fatty acid synthesis, TAG synthesis, Glycogen Synthesis, etc)...  It's a 2 WAY system !! Either Catabolic or Anabolic  ..Phosphorlyation or Dephosphorylation of enzymes  .. Starved state vs. Well-fed State.. Catch my drift?   SOOO  when you are taking in carbohydrates at a lower caloric intake-- your body is STILL reading the insulin and insulin receptors are irreversibly activated into going through their metabolic pathways that will drive other enzymes to finally produce ATP (via Glycolysis, TCA cycle, Oxygen-Phosphorlation Transport system aka ETC system) ...  It all comes down to which source of energy do u mentally feel more capable training w?    FATS via Ketone Bodies or Carbs?    It's all about consistency and which one u are more than likely to stay consistent to

[tbombz]

hmmmmm....



eat protein, lift weights, adjust calories according to goal.

^^ theres your basic set up.

now experiment and find what works best for you. amount of carbs, amount of fat, amount of protein, meal frequency, food choices, total calories, training intensity, training volume, training frequency, rest between sets, rep range, days off, cardio type/intensity/duration/frequency..

same goes for one you step up to the juice level..  experiment with all the different types, start low, work your way up if need be, try combining different types if necessary, etc.

only way to really get the best results is through personal trial and error and consistent effort.

forget all the shit youve read about science, nutrition, physiology, endocrinology, bodybuilders, etc etc..

okay.. im done preaching now 

[Danny-Boy]

hmmmmm....



eat protein, lift weights, adjust calories according to goal.

^^ theres your basic set up.

now experiment and find what works best for you. amount of carbs, amount of fat, amount of protein, meal frequency, food choices, total calories, training intensity, training volume, training frequency, rest between sets, rep range, days off, cardio type/intensity/duration/frequency..

same goes for one you step up to the juice level..  experiment with all the different types, start low, work your way up if need be, try combining different types if necessary, etc.

only way to really get the best results is through personal trial and error and consistent effort.

forget all the shit youve read about science, nutrition, physiology, endocrinology, bodybuilders, etc etc..

okay.. im done preaching now  

i def agree w/ u t-bombz-- w regards to keeping the formula  as simple as possible (esp during the initial phase of dieting.. was only explaining: giving a simplified understanding y having carbs could also work in burning fat...   but when tapping into more competitive levels of conditioning.. this is when these macronutrients come more into play--esp depending on drug protocol or if one is natural--totally diff ballgame..  this needs better understanding to those who have hit plateaus and cannot get past/below their desired body fat %  ....  the extra tweaking comes more so around the 5-6 % range  when the body starts playing w/ natural thyroid hormonal production

[tbombz]

i dont have any experience getting naturals into contest condition ..

but who wants to be a natural in contest condition anyways? 

[Danny-Boy]

To be honest.. n' i know i will get flamed for it ..given that this is getbig.... but  the appeal of one conditioned via the natural route is more easily marketable/favored towards mainstream public..  The appearance of the more obvious superficial varicosities (dilation of veins on superficial surface of skin) --even on individuals who are not even that low in body fat has a tendency to give off a more chemical-induced appearance-- and automatically blacklists certain individuals from even being found attractive to the opposite sex(despite being in shape).. my opinion.. From observation,  a leaner fellow w/ less pronounced vascularity has more mainstream appeal.. women tend to believe he earned his conditioning the hard way.. (Im not claiming one works harder than the other btw)  BUT it still is all about 1st impressions... one who uses is usually automatically stigmatized by public opinion--esp during this turn of the decade w all the drug /ped busts w athletes..  and being labeled cheaters...   juiced up fellows usually have more appeal to hardcore fitness fanatics as well.. n' these type of women are def not my cup of tea...

[Krankenstein]

Doc, I thought protein alone will stimulate an insulinogenic response?

I knew BCAAs will stimulate insulin release via its bi-phasic effect. Wouldn't something like isolate do this as well?

Enjoy : http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2012/06/whey-more-insulinogenic-than-white.html

[dj181]

95%, if not more, of the weight loss battle comes down to calories in vs out. There is a littany of research showing that diet macros are not the main driving force behind weight loss.

The body is a very efficient machine - it will use what you give it to thrive if it can.

Training with weights is far more anabolic/anti-catabolic than protein in the diet. It's very possible to grow muscle on a low protein/low calorie diet, if the training stimulus is substantial. Ideal? No, but not impossible and actually quite probable.

A high carb, hypo-caloric diet plan will lead to rapid weight loss. Just ask Chris Aceto...he's been applying the scientific principles of the theory, in practicality, for years with great success.

To sum: there is both strong scientific, and practical experience, that it can work very well.

The hooplah about insulin is much ado about nothing, if you are in fact hypo-caloric.

Beware the fads the average huckster in this industry would have you believe in order to buy their tapes/DVDs/newsletters. You don't need the minutia of specifically timed macros.

Just eat less than you need, exercise more than you are now, and you will lose weight. It is inevitable that it will happen.

nice post man

[hangclean]

yeah i know a guy who "needs" insulin, "but only" after heavy leg and back workouts.never seems to get really shredded no matter what.

the test e i think is best to go off of entirely 3 weeks out.id even go as far and say its best to go off everything 2-3 weeks out, this will ensure theres the minimum amount of water retention.i know sounds crazy, but ive seen and experience it working.

Why the hell would you cut tren and masteron out at all, let alone 3 weeks before the show?  I usually just remove test and replace it with more tren and mast the last three weeks and just doing that dries me out a good bit.  Those two drugs (if real, who knows with the shit people get nowadays) do not cause any water retention at all.