Author Topic: Gun Control Fallacies  (Read 1653 times)

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2012, 12:25:13 PM »
I didn't mean "reach" in that sense. I meant that this sort of program would be of interest to a limited audience. Even if you successfully informed every single gun owner in the United States, the percentage who would respond would actually be low: after all, gun owners are almost always gun owners by choice since guns don't fall out of the sky and into people's laps. And those people could, if they wanted, legally sell their weapons for cash today without any gun buyback program.


How would you reduce the number of guns being manufactured? No law can be passed in the United States to make gun ownership illegal or generally prohibit people from purchasing firearms; the right to bear arms is guaranteed by the Second Amendment, and a blanket prohibition on buying new guns would almost certainly be treated by the courts as a significant impediment in the exercise of that Constitutionally-guaranteed right. The only way to "bypass" that "problem" would be a new Amendment to strike out the Second Amendment. And the chances of that happening are exactly zero.


I don't doubt that it's true that the majority of homicide victims have extensive criminal histories, although I think that's an improper use of statistics. But that aside, even if that's the case, so what? What does that have to do with anything?

Those with extensive criminal histories who have weapons (legally or illegally) would not be likely to take advantage of a gun buyback program for what should be fairly obvious reasons.


I think most law abiding folk will soon find a bit of "interest" when they are told if they don't hand their guns in they will be thrown in jail. The scheme in Australia was not voluntary.

If you restrict gun ownership the demand would drop, why would manufactures keep making so many guns when far fewer people are permitted to purchase them. Yes the 2nd amendment may need updating but legislation should evolve to fit the current needs of society. For an industrialised nation you have a horrendous problem with gun crime, but you're not going to act because you're too scared to touch something that was written hundreds of years ago?

If the criminals are not happy to take part in the buy back program, when you introduce mandatory minimum 10yr sentence for simple unauthorised possession of a firearm, illegal gun ownership may become somewhat less attractive.

The True Adonis

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2012, 12:35:30 PM »
::) The scheme in Australia was not voluntary.

If you restrict gun ownership the demand would drop, why would manufactures keep making so many guns when far fewer people are permitted to purchase them. Yes the 2nd amendment may need updating but legislation should evolve to fit the current needs of society. For an industrialised nation you have a horrendous problem with gun crime, but you're not going to act because you're too scared to touch something that was written hundreds of years ago?

If the criminals are not happy to take part in the buy back program, when you introduce mandatory minimum 10yr sentence for simple unauthorised possession of a firearm, illegal gun ownership may become somewhat less attractive.

::)
Yeah, thats fair.

avxo

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2012, 12:41:31 PM »
I think most law abiding folk will soon find a bit of "interest" when they are told if they don't hand their guns in they will be thrown in jail. The scheme in Australia was not voluntary.

Australia is Australia. The simple fact is that you cannot do this in the United States without amending the Constitution. The chances of that happening are exactly zero.

If you restrict gun ownership the demand would drop, why would manufactures keep making so many guns when far fewer people are permitted to purchase them. Yes the 2nd amendment may need updating but legislation should evolve to fit the current needs of society. For an industrialised nation you have a horrendous problem with gun crime, but you're not going to act because you're too scared to touch something that was written hundreds of years ago?

And if your aunt had balls...


If the criminals are not happy to take part in the buy back program, when you introduce mandatory minimum 10yr sentence for simple unauthorised possession of a firearm, illegal gun ownership may become somewhat less attractive.

The penalties for possession of a gun by a felon are already quite stiff. Yet they aren't really a deterrent, are they?

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2012, 12:43:14 PM »
::)
Yeah, thats fair.


What's unfair about it? We have a mandatory no quibble minimum 5 year sentence for unauthorised gun possession in the UK, and there is never more than 30 or so gun murders per year, with a population of 60million.

You have a horrible problem with gun crime in general and domestic terrorism (61 mass shootings since 1981)... desperate times call for drastic measures.

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 12:51:49 PM »
Australia is Australia. The simple fact is that you cannot do this in the United States without amending the Constitution. The chances of that happening are exactly zero.

And if your aunt had balls...


The penalties for possession of a gun by a felon are already quite stiff. Yet they aren't really a deterrent, are they?


So you won't attempt anything meaningful to solve your current problems because you can't alter ancient laws...Sounds reasonable!

The penalties for felon possession(across the board) are nowhere near a minumum 10yrs on average, I've seen them.

The True Adonis

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2012, 12:57:01 PM »
What's unfair about it? We have a mandatory no quibble minimum 5 year sentence for unauthorised gun possession in the UK, and there is never more than 30 or so gun murders per year, with a population of 60million.

You have a horrible problem with gun crime in general and domestic terrorism (61 mass shootings since 1981)... desperate times call for drastic measures.


Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2012, 01:06:54 PM »



LOL I think you'll find that the difference between how each country classifies and compiles "violent crime" figs skews any comparisons.

For instance the UK apparently has more violent crimes per capita than South Africa....Yeh right!


The True Adonis

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2012, 01:07:39 PM »

LOL I think you'll find that the difference between how each country classifies and compiles "violent crime" figs skews any comparisons.

For instance the UK apparently has more violent crimes per capita than South Africa....Yeh right!


It does. 

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2012, 01:09:25 PM »

avxo

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2012, 01:14:49 PM »
So you won't attempt anything meaningful to solve your current problems because you can't alter ancient laws...Sounds reasonable!

Banning firearms isn't "meaningful" anymore than it's reasonable. And it's got nothing to do with ancient laws (by the way, I find it ironic that a Britton would talk about ancient laws and reluctance to change them). It's got everything to do with freedom, a topic I expect someone who lives in a close-circuit television monitored country would know little about.

The "current problems" won't be solved by banning guns. The thing is that guns are a tool. Take those away and violent people will use homemade explosives. Knives. Screwdrivers. Baseball bats. Even fits. Violence doesn't require guns, something that should be obvious to someone living in the U.K., which has, by far, the largest number of violent crimes per capita in the world.


The penalties for felon possession(across the board) are nowhere near a minumum 10yrs on average, I've seen them.

I don't know that the length of the penalty will make a difference to hardened criminals, but in my opinion, the specific penalty is open to debate.

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2012, 01:42:54 PM »
Banning firearms isn't "meaningful" anymore than it's reasonable. And it's got nothing to do with ancient laws (by the way, I find it ironic that a Britton would talk about ancient laws and reluctance to change them). It's got everything to do with freedom, a topic I expect someone who lives in a close-circuit television monitored country would know little about.

The "current problems" won't be solved by banning guns. The thing is that guns are a tool. Take those away and violent people will use homemade explosives. Knives. Screwdrivers. Baseball bats. Even fits. Violence doesn't require guns, something that should be obvious to someone living in the U.K., which has, by far, the largest number of violent crimes per capita in the world.


I don't know that the length of the penalty will make a difference to hardened criminals, but in my opinion, the specific penalty is open to debate.


Hahaa that old chestnut! You have no more freedom than we have here, in fact probably less. You have prohibited items same as every other nation. You have some of the most restrictive alcohol laws in the developed world, possession of steroids is a crime in the US it's perfectly legal here...

Your nation has just made a bad choice not including firearms on your list of prohibited items.

I'm not saying I know what exact sentence would deter criminals, I was just throwing a figure out there buts it's obvious you need some quite radical change.

whork

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2012, 01:44:26 PM »

Shockwave

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2012, 02:25:32 PM »

whork

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2012, 02:32:48 PM »

LOL I think you'll find that the difference between how each country classifies and compiles "violent crime" figs skews any comparisons.

For instance the UK apparently has more violent crimes per capita than South Africa....Yeh right!



This

avxo

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2012, 02:37:11 PM »
Hahaa that old chestnut! You have no more freedom than we have here, in fact probably less. You have prohibited items same as every other nation. You have some of the most restrictive alcohol laws in the developed world, possession of steroids is a crime in the US it's perfectly legal here...

This may come as quite a big surprise to you, but freedom isn't only about prohibited items. And I never argued that every one of our laws is a shining example. I can (and do) disagree with a number of laws currently on the books, most often on the grounds that I don't think that it's the Government's business to tell me how to live my life, handle my affairs and eat, drink or inject. To address a specific example you cited, I find our alcohol laws to be highly moronic and a reflection of a society that is trying a bit too hard to remain puritanical.


Your nation has just made a bad choice not including firearms on your list of prohibited items.

No. Your opinion is that our nation has made a bad choice. But your opinion on how our nations does things is meaningless to us to begin with, and even if it wasn't you know what they say about opinions and assholes...


I'm not saying I know what exact sentence would deter criminals, I was just throwing a figure out there buts it's obvious you need some quite radical change.

Perhaps. But more prison time for unlawful possession of a firearm by a felon is hardly the place to start.

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2012, 02:43:50 PM »
This may come as quite a big surprise to you, but freedom isn't only about prohibited items. And I never argued that every one of our laws is a shining example. I can (and do) disagree with a number of laws currently on the books, most often on the grounds that I don't think that it's the Government's business to tell me how to live my life, handle my affairs and eat, drink or inject. To address a specific example you cited, I find our alcohol laws to be highly moronic and a reflection of a society that is trying a bit too hard to remain puritanical.


No. Your opinion is that our nation has made a bad choice. But your opinion on how our nations does things is meaningless to us to begin with, and even if it wasn't you know what they say about opinions and assholes...


Perhaps. But more prison time for unlawful possession of a firearm by a felon is hardly the place to start.


Well what is freedom about then? Why do you think you have more freedom in the US than we do in the UK?

Newsflash! This is the internet bro, everyone's opinion is pretty meaningless here lol

It seems like as good a place as any to start, along with reducing the amount of legal guns in circulation.

tonymctones

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2012, 03:47:46 PM »
All a ban on guns or a mandatory buy back would do would be to make law abiding citizens into criminals b/c many would not give back their guns and rightfully so.


avxo

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2012, 05:12:08 PM »
Well what is freedom about then? Why do you think you have more freedom in the US than we do in the UK?

We can start with the simple fact that there is no freedom of speech in the U.K.: Can citizens be prosecuted for criticizing Judges? Check. Can police investigate citizens over a picture of a burning poppy? Check. Can citizens be convicted and put in jail over calling someone else names? Check. I can go on, but I think that I've made my point.


Newsflash! This is the internet bro, everyone's opinion is pretty meaningless here lol

Perhaps. But at least I can't be prosecuted for offending someone, and that's something you can't say.

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2012, 12:29:11 AM »
We can start with the simple fact that there is no freedom of speech in the U.K.: Can citizens be prosecuted for criticizing Judges? Check. Can police investigate citizens over a picture of a burning poppy? Check. Can citizens be convicted and put in jail over calling someone else names? Check. I can go on, but I think that I've made my point.


Perhaps. But at least I can't be prosecuted for offending someone, and that's something you can't say.


Do you mind highlighting the text in your link that says it's illegal to criticise a judge? that is an absolute crock of sh@t.
Yes we do have "incitement laws" in the UK, if it's suspected that someone has done something with the intention of stirring up hatred/prejudice against a certain group they can be investigated/prosecuted.

Does the word "McCarthyism" ring any bells

"The Communist Control Act" ...Not much freedom of speech/expression there then!
We have no such restrictions in the UK...

So we have laws that are designed to prevent people from intentionally stirring up hatred against another group, you outlaw certain political parties.

Overall you really have no more freedom than us and the probably actually have less than most of the rest of developed world. Because you still have loads of lunatic puritanical(as you call them) right wingers with massive influence over your society.


avxo

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #44 on: December 19, 2012, 01:30:03 AM »
Do you mind highlighting the text in your link that says it's illegal to criticise a judge? that is an absolute crock of sh@t.

Sure. Read the last sentence of the second paragraph on page 53: "The law also contains an absolute prohibition against post-trial interviews with jurors; and gives judges the power to postpone reports of proceedings, ban the mention of names or other items of evidence. It was used against The Independent's reporting on the Spycatcher litigation even though it was not a party to earlier cases involving The Guardian and The Observer. It also also an offense, though rarely invoked, to "scandalize" the court by criticizing (in Scotland, "murmuring") judges."


Yes we do have "incitement laws" in the UK, if it's suspected that someone has done something with the intention of stirring up hatred/prejudice against a certain group they can be investigated/prosecuted.

Right... that's why police investigate pictures of burning poppies. What you have in the UK goes far beond "incitement laws."


Does the word "McCarthyism" ring any bells

It sure does. What bells did you mean to ring? Joe McCarthy was a drunk who made grandiose statements that he was never able to prove; he was, ultimately, censured by his peers and died disgraced and destroyed by his own hubris. As far as I'm concerned his actions were against the spirit of the Constitution, if not its letter, and most Americans would, I suspect, agree, considering that his name lives on, to this day, as an insult.

Please note that I never said that we are perfect, nor do I claim that our politicians can do no wrong. Indeed, that's why I don't trust politicians and want their power tightly circumscribed by a Constitution that they cannot change without true support from the citizens.


"The Communist Control Act" ...Not much freedom of speech/expression there then!
We have no such restrictions in the UK...

Another shameful historical relic. Although still technically on the books, I don't think any Administration has tried to enforce it and there are Communist Parties in most states. Luckily, they're relegated to the thrash can, where Communist Parties belong, and not because of any legislative action.

As for having no such restrictions in the UK, all I have to say is "Really?" You mean that the British Union of Fascists was not banned? What about Sinn Féin?


So we have laws that are designed to prevent people from intentionally stirring up hatred against another group, you outlaw certain political parties.

While that's true, you are omiting a critical detail: you enforce those laws, we don't. And besides, you have much more than laws that prevent people from "intention stirring up hatred." You have laws that prohibit speech.


Overall you really have no more freedom than us and the probably actually have less than most of the rest of developed world. Because you still have loads of lunatic puritanical(as you call them) right wingers with massive influence over your society.

Actually we do. You want examples?

Police in the United States cannot (generally) stop you or demand identification withour meeting a minimum standard which depends on the jurisdiction. In the UK, police can stop and demand that you produce identification without any reason.

The United States Government cannot censor the media; they can't even do it when they are about to post classified papers, something which the Court made clear in the case involving the Pentagon Papers. In the UK, the various Official Secrets Acts mean that the Government can censor anything it cares to censor.

As for the religious nutjobs, they are mostly limited to complaining about our moral decay and yearning for the days of olde, when boys and girls shared malts at the local malt shop, music was pure and pompadours were painstakingly styled with Brylcreem. While they still hold some sway and their influence is felt on particularly contentious issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) they are on their way out.

Radical Plato

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2012, 03:45:52 AM »
Why would it only reach a limited audience ,does Australia have a more advanced media network than the US?, and it wasn't a voluntary scheme where citizens "who wished" to give up there guns could, it was a mandatory buy up, if they didn't give them up they would become criminals.

All of the illegal guns you have were manufactured legally and filter down to the criminals, you will only ever cut the amount of illegal guns when you cut off the supply by reducing the number of guns being manufactured and in general circulation. The majority of gun murders and shootings are committed by criminals on criminals. So the real fallacy is that you need all these guns to protect yourselves from criminals, when innocent people are rarely the target anyway and having all the guns just makes it easier for criminals to get hold of them.

 "The majority of homicide victims have extensive criminal histories. This is simply the way that the world of criminal homicide works. It's a fact," said David Kennedy, head of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control. "When we act as if this fact of prior criminal activity isn't true, we send the signal that everybody's at risk all the time."

Kennedy emphasizes that every city also has "innocent victims who didn't do anything wrong and never have." But statistically, those victims are "an exception," he said
."

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/01/nopd_release_of_murder_victims.html
Yeah, apparently those Grade 1 children were drug smugglers!  Blaming the victim is universal, it's based on the just world belief (which is bullshit) and it enables those who hold such a belief to do absolutely nothing about injustice (as in their mind, when bad shit happens, their must be a reason why those victims were targeted).  I can't think of anything more damaging than blaming victims, it prevents people from doing anything to prevent such tragedies, it also makes them feel more righteous.

This ridiculous "Just World" belief has it's origins in Religion. "There but for the grace of God, go I"  meaning that when witnessing others misfortune, it is possible that I could also encounter the same fate, if it were not for God's mercy, in other words, God protects the righteous and the pious.  The story that is widely circulated is that the phrase was first spoken by the English evangelical preacher and martyr, John Bradford (circa 1510–1555). He is said to have uttered the variant of the expression - "There but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford", when seeing criminals being led to the scaffold. He didn't enjoy that grace for long, however. He was burned at the stake in 1555.
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whork

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2012, 05:58:44 AM »
Guns > kids

Its very simple.

Conker

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Re: Gun Control Fallacies
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2012, 01:35:10 PM »
Sure. Read the last sentence of the second paragraph on page 53: "The law also contains an absolute prohibition against post-trial interviews with jurors; and gives judges the power to postpone reports of proceedings, ban the mention of names or other items of evidence. It was used against The Independent's reporting on the Spycatcher litigation even though it was not a party to earlier cases involving The Guardian and The Observer. It also also an offense, though rarely invoked, to "scandalize" the court by criticizing (in Scotland, "murmuring") judges."


Right... that's why police investigate pictures of burning poppies. What you have in the UK goes far beond "incitement laws."


It sure does. What bells did you mean to ring? Joe McCarthy was a drunk who made grandiose statements that he was never able to prove; he was, ultimately, censured by his peers and died disgraced and destroyed by his own hubris. As far as I'm concerned his actions were against the spirit of the Constitution, if not its letter, and most Americans would, I suspect, agree, considering that his name lives on, to this day, as an insult.

Please note that I never said that we are perfect, nor do I claim that our politicians can do no wrong. Indeed, that's why I don't trust politicians and want their power tightly circumscribed by a Constitution that they cannot change without true support from the citizens.


Another shameful historical relic. Although still technically on the books, I don't think any Administration has tried to enforce it and there are Communist Parties in most states. Luckily, they're relegated to the thrash can, where Communist Parties belong, and not because of any legislative action.

As for having no such restrictions in the UK, all I have to say is "Really?" You mean that the British Union of Fascists was not banned? What about Sinn Féin?


While that's true, you are omiting a critical detail: you enforce those laws, we don't. And besides, you have much more than laws that prevent people from "intention stirring up hatred." You have laws that prohibit speech.


Actually we do. You want examples?

Police in the United States cannot (generally) stop you or demand identification withour meeting a minimum standard which depends on the jurisdiction. In the UK, police can stop and demand that you produce identification without any reason.

The United States Government cannot censor the media; they can't even do it when they are about to post classified papers, something which the Court made clear in the case involving the Pentagon Papers. In the UK, the various Official Secrets Acts mean that the Government can censor anything it cares to censor.

As for the religious nutjobs, they are mostly limited to complaining about our moral decay and yearning for the days of olde, when boys and girls shared malts at the local malt shop, music was pure and pompadours were painstakingly styled with Brylcreem. While they still hold some sway and their influence is felt on particularly contentious issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) they are on their way out.

We could probably go around in circles with this forever, you probably do have slightly more freedom of speech than we do due to our incitement of hatred laws, but your own freedom of speech is not limitless, and contrary to your claim you can also actually be arrested for causing offence if you breach "obscenity" laws.

And there are plenty of areas where we have more freedoms than you, as already mentioned we have less restrictive alcohol sale and consumption laws, you have more restrictive gambling laws than us, with a blanket ban on internet gambling. Individual prostitution(as long as not solicited in a public place) is legal in the UK, where as it's illegal in the US apart from in Nevada.

We tend to have more lenient drug laws especially in terms of punishment for simple possession. Gays have more freedom here, gay marriage is legal nationwide, hell you only decriminalised anal sex in 2003!

Overall you really have no more freedom.