how is it possible to judge "muscle density" by looking at skin

[NarcissisticDeity]

lol, keep dodging the question like you always do. Your stubborn refusal to acknowledge that you don't know what the heck you're talking about is all the proof I need that I'm right

It's a non-issue , there is NO debate if Dorian had better conditioning , it's not open for discussion EVERYONE knows it except you.

Peter McGough

While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.

Go away kid , your shit is boring. You go owned get over it. You thought you knew what you were talking about and you didn't and you got burned 

[NeoSeminole]

^^^ translation: I don't have an intelligent response so I will quote another man's opinion rather than provide an explanation grounded in reality

[dj181]

did someone say density

[OTHstrong]

says who? Looking at all the past Mr. Olympias, the only one who ever won with rugged-looking skin was Dorian. Where's the evidence to back up the claim that this is what's rewarded on stage?

Cut the horse shit you dumbass.

 This is rewarded by the judges, says the judges. I live at bodybuilding shows. I work with hundreds of judges, I work on stage at hundreds of shows you moron. This is what is rewarded, get over it. FFS this is why I am starting to hate this place, a bunch of dumbassess who don't know shit about bodybuilding and when you are saying stuff. they demand ''prove it'' are you fucken kidding me.

Prove it. The judge reward conditioning, prove it

the judges reward striations, prove it

seriously are you dumb?

and yes this is A FUCKEN MELTDOWN BASED ON STUPIDITY

[NarcissisticDeity]

^^^ translation: I don't have an intelligent response so I will quote another man's opinion rather than provide an explanation grounded in reality

I absolutely will quote another man's opinion and why would I do that? and the fucking irony of you claiming the contrary and have the balls to claim your opinion is some how  'grounded in reality ' when in fact it's reached how? 

Through two fucking pictures posted almost 10 years apart under different lights and the quality of cameras and films improved exponentially within that time. LMFAO this is how your grounded in reality opinion came?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA

You're a fucking moron kid and I'm sorry but there is NO way to be kind about that , you just are. Thinking somehow you're right and Peter McGough is wrong

He seen both Ronnie & Dorian compete at their bests through their entire careers from beginning to end , he's been steps away from both live and in the flesh in 1993 and 2001 , if he says Ronnie doesn't compare it's LAW , he's been in the game since your parents were small , he's been there done that

[NarcissisticDeity]

Cut the horse shit you dumbass.

 This is rewarded by the judges, says the judges. I live at bodybuilding shows. I work with hundreds of judges, I work on stage at hundreds of shows you moron. This is what is rewarded, get over it. FFS this is why I am starting to hate this place, a bunch of dumbassess who don't know shit about bodybuilding and when you are saying stuff. they demand ''prove it'' are you fucken kidding me.

Prove it. The judge reward conditioning, prove it

the judges reward striations, prove it

seriously are you dumb?

and yes this is A FUCKEN MELTDOWN BASED ON STUPIDITY

Great post.

This kid doesn't know shit.

[NeoSeminole]

Cut the horse shit you dumbass.

This is rewarded by the judges, says the judges. I live at bodybuilding shows. I work with hundreds of judges, I work on stage at hundreds of shows you moron. This is what is rewarded, get over it. FFS this is why I am starting to hate this place, a bunch of dumbassess who don't know shit about bodybuilding and when you are saying stuff. they demand ''prove it'' are you fucken kidding me.

Prove it. The judge reward conditioning, prove it

the judges reward striations, prove it

seriously are you dumb?

and yes this is A FUCKEN MELTDOWN BASED ON STUPIDITY

are you being serious? I call you out and your only response is "omg, you're such an idiot. Take my word for it, blah blah. How can you be so dumb? blah blah" and then you proceed to attack a strawman argument. My rebuttal was based on all the previous Mr. Olympia winners. At least I used an objective source instead of you who basically told me to take your word for it. No thanks! I would rather deal with facts instead of opinions. If we expanded our analysis to include all IFBB pro contests, then tell me how many bodybuilders were rewarded for looking "rugged." Surely Dorian Yates and Branch Warren aren't the only two bodybuilders in history to have that look.

[OTHstrong]

are you being serious? I call you out and your only response is "omg, you're such an idiot. Take my word for it, blah blah. How can you be so dumb? blah blah" and then you proceed to attack a strawman argument. My rebuttal was based on all the previous Mr. Olympia winners. At least I used an objective source instead of you who basically told me to take your word for it. No thanks! I would rather deal with facts instead of opinions. If we expanded our analysis to include all IFBB pro contests, then tell me how many bodybuilders were rewarded for looking "rugged." Surely Dorian Yates and Branch Warren aren't the only two bodybuilders in history to have that look.

OK fine, I am a jerk for freaking out, my bad 

Look I never said that having that look will guarantee a win. Obviously there is more to bodybuilding then that, you have size, conditioning, shape, proportions, and the works. So you saying their are others that have won the O without that grainy look, well of course cause they were Superior in other attributes.

This is definitely a feature judges will reward but very few have this type of look, obviously Yates is known for this and is king, other notable ones to a lesser degree are Pavol Jablonicky and Branch. Even Coleman is grainy from his thighs only though. Centopani is another with a grainy look. Not many in bodybuilding at all, but when you do see a bodybuilder with this type of look it gives the judges a hard on.

[NeoSeminole]

I absolutely will quote another man's opinion and why would I do that? and the fucking irony of you claiming the contrary and have the balls to claim your opinion is some how  'grounded in reality ' when in fact it's reached how?

Through two fucking pictures posted almost 10 years apart under different lights and the quality of cameras and films improved exponentially within that time. LMFAO this is how your grounded in reality opinion came?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHA

You're a fucking moron kid and I'm sorry but there is NO way to be kind about that , you just are. Thinking somehow you're right and Peter McGough is wrong

He seen both Ronnie & Dorian compete at their bests through their entire careers from beginning to end , he's been steps away from both live and in the flesh in 1993 and 2001 , if he says Ronnie doesn't compare it's LAW , he's been in the game since your parents were small , he's been there done that

you can quote another man's opinion all you want. I never told you not to. However, continuing to quote him doesn't help your argument

likewise, I could post quotes from multiple sources saying Ronnie had better conditioning than Dorian. I guess that means Ronnie was better

Nasser El Sonbaty – http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/greatest-olympia-winner-of-all-time.htm

"Without any doubt I feel the best Mr. Olympia winner ever is Ronnie Coleman. If you take a look at Coleman in his prime, compared to any one of the other Mr. Olympia winners in theirs, you could say that Ronnie had more size and hardness and greater longevity.

Flex Wheeler - MD, February 2004

"I'll go on record as saying Ronnie is truly the biggest, hardest, most shredded Mr. Olympia in history. No disrespect to anybody at all, but I'd to identify Ronnie Coleman as the greatest Mr. Olympia of all time."

Jim Stoppani - Flex, July 2005

"Has anyone ever displayed a more muscular, more shredded, higher-quality physique than a 247-pound Ronnie Coleman at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic?"

[NeoSeminole]

OK fine, I am a jerk for freaking out, my bad

Look I never said that having that look will guarantee a win. Obviously there is more to bodybuilding then that, you have size, conditioning, shape, proportions, and the works. So you saying their are others that have won the O without that grainy look, well of course cause they were Superior in other attributes.

This is definitely a feature judges will reward but very few have this type of look, obviously Yates is known for this and is king, other notable ones to a lesser degree are Pavol Jablonicky and Branch. Even Coleman is grainy from his thighs only though. Centopani is another with a grainy look. Not many in bodybuilding at all, but when you do see a bodybuilder with this type of look it gives the judges a hard on.

it's all good, brah. No feelings hurt. I do think as bodybuilders reach the epitome of conditioning, their skin takes on a characteristic texture that looks like saran wrapping over the muscle. Dorian had this. Menzer had this. Ronnie had this (look at his 98 Mr. Olympia or 01 ASC pics). Several other bodybuilders have had it too. So I don't think it's as rare as some people make it out to be

[OTHstrong]

Everyone has it to some degree if they get shredded enough I suppose but with the outlined people, it was dramatic, so much that even Yates had in off-season mood, not fully off-season but 25lb out, he was still grainy so it was more pronounced.

[NarcissisticDeity]

you can quote another man's opinion all you want. I never told you not to. However, continuing to quote him doesn't help your argument

likewise, I could post quotes from multiple sources saying Ronnie had better conditioning than Dorian. I guess that means Ronnie was better

Nasser El Sonbaty – http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/greatest-olympia-winner-of-all-time.htm

"Without any doubt I feel the best Mr. Olympia winner ever is Ronnie Coleman. If you take a look at Coleman in his prime, compared to any one of the other Mr. Olympia winners in theirs, you could say that Ronnie had more size and hardness and greater longevity.

Flex Wheeler - MD, February 2004

"I'll go on record as saying Ronnie is truly the biggest, hardest, most shredded Mr. Olympia in history. No disrespect to anybody at all, but I'd to identify Ronnie Coleman as the greatest Mr. Olympia of all time."

Jim Stoppani - Flex, July 2005

"Has anyone ever displayed a more muscular, more shredded, higher-quality physique than a 247-pound Ronnie Coleman at the 2001 Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic?"

Those quotes are generic and not specific about Dorian at his best , and I can post twenty more all saying Dorian's conditioning is UNMATCHED even to this day including from Dorian himself who is an IFBB judge 

You're the one trying to prove Ronnie had better conditioning than Dorian using two pictures separated by almost 10 years under different lighting and quality , Kevin Horton already explained to you why that comparison is invalid and useless yet that's your proof 

I will NOT debate who had better conditioning between the two it's not open for discussion , you can type all you want Ronnie was it doesn't change the facts.

run along with your bullshit

[NeoSeminole]

Those quotes are generic and not specific about Dorian at his best , and I can post twenty more all saying Dorian's conditioning is UNMATCHED even to this day including from Dorian himself who is an IFBB judge

You're the one trying to prove Ronnie had better conditioning than Dorian using two pictures separated by almost 10 years under different lighting and quality , Kevin Horton already explained to you why that comparison is invalid and useless yet that's your proof  

I will NOT debate who had better conditioning between the two it's not open for discussion , you can type all you want Ronnie was it doesn't change the facts.

run along with your bullshit

you must not be able to read. Here's the first quote I posted again before you go whining how the quotes don't compare Dorian at his prime

Nasser El Sonbaty – http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/greatest-olympia-winner-of-all-time.htm

"Without any doubt I feel the best Mr. Olympia winner ever is Ronnie Coleman. If you take a look at Coleman in his prime, compared to any one of the other Mr. Olympia winners in theirs, you could say that Ronnie had more size and hardness and greater longevity.

[tbombz]

The muscle "appears" dense would be the correct way of saying it.

[cephissus]

great thread, except for the ronnie vs. dorian bullshit

[OTHstrong]

great thread, except for the ronnie vs. dorian bullshit

agree

[tbombz]

Arguments against the term dense in physique evaluations are necessarily arguing that the human eye is incapale of observing the physical characteristics of material

[goomba420]

Arguments against the term dense in physique evaluations are necessarily arguing that the human eye is incapale of observing the physical characteristics of material

You can use a thesaurus but I see spell check is yet to be mastered.

[OTHstrong]

Arguments against the term dense in physique evaluations are necessarily arguing that the human eye is incapale of observing the physical characteristics of material

Look people stop confusing things, the only thing that matters is what the judges mean by this word "dense" and the judges mean the rugged look, that's it, everything else is horse shit. In bodybuilding terms 'dense' means rugged and grainy, why? cause the bodybuilding judges say it does, simple as that.

[NarcissisticDeity]

you must not be able to read. Here's the first quote I posted again before you go whining how the quotes don't compare Dorian at his prime

Nasser El Sonbaty – http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/greatest-olympia-winner-of-all-time.htm

"Without any doubt I feel the best Mr. Olympia winner ever is Ronnie Coleman. If you take a look at Coleman in his prime, compared to any one of the other Mr. Olympia winners in theirs, you could say that Ronnie had more size and hardness and greater longevity.

Irony alert you must not be able to read

Peter McGough

While I’m on record as saying that the best physique I ever saw was Ronnie’s at the 2001 Arnold, he was never drier or harder than Dorian. In fact now that – 14 years after it happened – I recently for the first time saw the video of Dorian posing before the 1993 Olympia I have cause to rethink. I’m now not sure that Ronnie at 245 pounds would beat Dorian at 269 pounds. At a bigger bodyweight I think Ronnie would look soft next to an in-shape rock-hard Dorian.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.


he was never drier or harder than Dorian.

NEVER not 1998 not 2001 not now , not 1996 not EVER

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian. He achieved a hardness and dryness (without losing fullness) that nobody has ever matched. In the flesh he looked even harder than he did in photos. It was like a statue made of granite was standing in front of you.

On the subject of conditioning, no-one did it better than Dorian.

NO-ONE understand?


I can bury you with quotes saying the exact same thing , I wont because it's not open for discussion , keep your denial it's all you have oh and that swell comparison you made LMAO

[tbombz]

It means the muscle actually looks DENSE. Whether or not it actually is dense is irrelevant. Sometimes rough skin can cause a more dense look but so can.... Drum roll please... DENSITY!  Lol

[NarcissisticDeity]

great thread, except for the ronnie vs. dorian bullshit

Thank Neo the fanboy for still crying about Dorian

[NarcissisticDeity]

Density - Muscle hardness, which is also related to muscu-lar definition. A bodybuilder can be well-defined and still have excess fat within each major muscle complex. But when he has muscle density, even this intramuscular fat has been eliminated. A combination of muscle mass and muscle density is highly prized among all competitive bodybuilders.

Dense Ronnie left , Soft Ronnie right

[OTHstrong]

Density - Muscle hardness, which is also related to muscu-lar definition. A bodybuilder can be well-defined and still have excess fat within each major muscle complex. But when he has muscle density, even this intramuscular fat has been eliminated. A combination of muscle mass and muscle density is highly prized among all competitive bodybuilders.

Dense Ronnie left , Soft Ronnie right

This is why Yates is called granite-like cause he is so dense and has no fat in the muscle and it is also why his skin texture looks that way (grainy) cause it is 100% pure muscle.

[dogbowl]

There was another long thread about this  topic (i think it was about "thickness" and "density").   A lot of these differences are due to lighting, bodyfat levels on certain areas of the body, and bending the definitions of words.  

Arguments against the term dense in physique evaluations are necessarily arguing that the human eye is incapale of observing the physical characteristics of material

Density is about the interior too, not just the surface, so it's a mistake to say that something "looks dense".  Even with relatively simple materials like metal or wood or stone, you can't use your eyes to judge their density.