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Author Topic: Why do citizens need a 30 round mag?  (Read 1762 times)
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« on: January 03, 2013, 03:52:15 AM »


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January 3, 2013
Why Does Anybody Need a 30-Round Magazine?

By William A. Levinson
Senator Dianne Feinstein's latest divide-and-conquer attack on the Second Amendment has made even Senator Joe Manchin (D-WV) a sucker for the argument that private citizens do not need high-capacity magazines. These include not only 30-round rifle magazines, but 17-round magazines for handguns like the Glock.

Why does anybody need a high capacity magazine? If Senator Manchin were to educate himself by, for example, attending Front Sight's four-day defensive handgun class, he would learn the two primary answers:

(1) Failure to stop the aggressor, and

(2) Multiple aggressors

Failure to Stop

The classic .38 caliber revolver, with a capacity of six rounds, was the standard sidearm of the United States Army during the Moro insurrection in the Philippines. The Army found at least one dead Army officer with an empty sidearm, and his head split open by a machete or similar weapon. They also found the soldier's killer, who had finally bled to death. Six rounds of .38 were therefore not enough to convince even one determined attacker.

Police instructor Masaad Ayoob's The Truth About Self Protection adds an incident in which a female police officer saw a crazed gunman murder a woman, who then shot her as well before she could do anything. "She lay helpless as she watched a neighbor empty a .22 rifle into the killer; the neighbor then had to club the madman down with the empty rifle, again and again, before he succumbed."

Ayoob does not report the size of the .22's magazine, but the Moro insurrection exemplifies why even a 30-round rifle clip might not be enough to stop a crazed and determined attacker, such as one hopped up on a drug like PCP. "He had 32 Krag balls through him and was only stopped by the 33rd bullet -- a Colt .45 slug through both ears." The Krag-Jorgensen's 30-caliber cartridge was far more powerful than the .22 in Ayoob's example, but not sufficiently powerful to civilize this particular attacker even when fired in mass.

Colonel Jeff Cooper's To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth adds the case of a man who was prosecuted for shooting his attacker eight times with a .380 automatic pistol. The prosecutor admitted that the dead man had been the aggressor, but argued that the shooter had taken the law into his own hands by continuing to shoot an adversary who had "obviously" been disabled. Cooper, whom the defense called as an expert witness, cited a suicide in which "the deceased shot himself amidships four times with a .380 Webley. Presumably the first three hits did not convince him."

The .45-caliber Automatic Colt Pistol was the Army's specific solution to the "failure to stop" problem in the Philippines. A single hit from a .45 caliber bullet will (per Cooper) stop the aggressor 95 percent of the time. This does not mean, however, that 7 or 8 rounds are enough for all conceivable defensive scenarios. Front Sight teaches students to change magazines in (ideally) less than two seconds. The other issue that Senator Manchin fails to recognize is that of multiple attackers.

Gang Bangers and the Knockout Game

Front Sight's 4-day defensive handgun class included scenarios with multiple aggressors, including four gang bangers on a street and five or more in a house (along with innocent bystanders). Front Sight's standard doctrine is to fire a controlled pair into an aggressor's thoracic cavity and, in the event of failure to stop, another into his cranio-ocular cavity to take out his central nervous system.

In the street gang situation, though, one shot is fired into each gang member due to the need to economize on both time and ammunition; only those that don't go down (or flee) then get "seconds." You might conceivably stop four gang members with seven or eight rounds of .45 ACP; that is what the cartridge was designed to do. A small man or woman who can handle only a 9 mm comfortably might not be able to end the incident even with 15 or 17 rounds, unless he or she can make the far more difficult head shots. It is particularly telling that most police officers carry either .45s or high-capacity 9 mm sidearms.

Then there is the knockout game, in which a street gang selects a victim at random, knocks him or her down, and then maybe beats him or her to a pulp. Here is an example that involved six individuals; only one struck a blow, but the others seemed to approve. Although the Web page and the book it promotes focuses on black racial violence, there is similar Caucasian-on-black crime, such as that perpetrated by the Ku Klux Klan. In any event, if there are six (or more) bad guys, you are obviously going to need far more than six bullets.

The anti-Second Amendment camp may argue that the teacher who was assaulted in this video would not have had time to defend himself with a firearm or anything else, because his attacker hit him by surprise. (While use of a firearm in response to a fist might normally be considered excessive force, multiple aggressors, even unarmed ones, create a disparity of force situation that might indeed justify a lethal response. The same applies if a single unarmed aggressor is much younger, bigger, and/or stronger than the victim, e.g. a teenage punk against a senior citizen or woman.) This is where the five conditions of mental awareness, as taught by Front Sight, come into play.

States of Mental Awareness

The knockout game victim was in what Front Sight calls Condition White, which means he was not paying attention to his surroundings. Front Sight recommends living in Condition Yellow. This does not mean a state of paranoia but it includes, for example, not getting too close to alleys or other positions from which you can be ambushed. It also means looking around you when you are handling your car keys in a parking lot. Violent criminals often avoid people who are clearly alert; they, like all predators in the animal kingdom, don't want to take a chance with anybody or anything that might hurt them.

Condition Orange means you have identified a potential threat. Had the teacher been in Condition Yellow, he would have seen the six young males in time to recognize them as such. Condition Orange can prevent a confrontation before it even becomes a confrontation. You don't get hurt, and you don't have to explain to the police why you hurt somebody else.

Condition Red means a known threat is in front of you. In the case of an imminent "knockout game," you have laid out in your mind how you are going to put the gang bangers down if they escalate to Condition Black by initiating hostilities.

Senator Feinstein's latest attack on the Second Amendment relies entirely on public ignorance of firearms and their legitimate uses, and this ignorance extends even to many people who support the principles of the Second Amendment. Education is the cure for ignorance and Front Sight, along with Gunsite (founded by Colonel Cooper) offers some of the best.

William A. Levinson, P.E. is the author of several books on business management including content on organizational psychology, as well as manufacturing productivity and quality.


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« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2013, 07:27:18 AM »

fucking great post, spot on.
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« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2013, 08:30:01 AM »

The letter follows Joshua's posting to CNN's iReport:
 
Senator Dianne Feinstein,
 
I will not register my weapons should this bill be passed, as I do not believe it is the government's right to know what I own. Nor do I think it prudent to tell you what I own so that it may be taken from me by a group of people who enjoy armed protection yet decry me having the same a crime. You ma'am have overstepped a line that is not your domain. I am a Marine Corps Veteran of 8 years, and I will not have some woman who proclaims the evil of an inanimate object, yet carries one, tell me I may not have one.
 
I am not your subject. I am the man who keeps you free. I am not your servant. I am the person whom you serve. I am not your peasant. I am the flesh and blood of America.
I am the man who fought for my country. I am the man who learned. I am an American. You will not tell me that I must register my semi-automatic AR-15 because of the actions of some evil man.
 
I will not be disarmed to suit the fear that has been established by the media and your misinformation campaign against the American public.
 
We, the people, deserve better than you.
 
Respectfully Submitted,
Joshua Boston
Cpl, United States Marine Corps
2004-2012


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/marine-joshua-boston-sen-feinstein-gun-control-legislation-california-cnn-ireport-2013-1#ixzz2GvWSJnJR

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« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2013, 09:09:53 AM »

Op/Ed

|http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/12/28/assault-weapon-is-just-a-pr-stunt-meant-to-fool-the-gullible


 12/28/2012 @ 9:23AM |61,891 views

'Assault Weapon' Is Just A PR Stunt Meant To Fool The Gullible



Piers Morgan (Photo credit: Wikipedia)

Senator Diane Feinstein (D-CA) has announced that she will be introducing legislation to reenact the ban on so-called assault weapons that she authored in 1994. The evidence is in on the effect of her previous assault weapons ban: zero, zilch, nada, as the saying goes. The ban made no perceptible difference in the gun violence statistics when it went into effect, and no perceptible difference when it was allowed to expire 10 years later, in 2003.

That is because the term “assault weapon” is just a PR stunt that fools the gullible and easily deluded. It is defined in legislation by cosmetic features that frighten white bread suburbanites, but do not involve any functionality of any gun. We tried it, conservatives said it wouldn’t work, and it didn’t work. Yet, it is the liberal answer to the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre in Newtown, Conn.



Why do the hard work of actually making a difference, when with no work at all you can perform a meaningless and irrelevant gesture that won’t make any difference? A Connecticut state law already banned assault weapons. The difference that made in stopping the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary: zero, zilch, nada, as the saying goes.

The sharpest analyst in America, and probably the whole world, on the issue of guns and crime is economist John Lott, the author of the classic book, More Guns, Less Crime. Early in his career, Lott served as an economist for the U.S. Sentencing Commission, which adopted uniform, mandatory, criminal sentencing guidelines for the federal courts. That led to his subsequent career as the world’s foremost expert on statistics relating to violent crime and guns.

Now in its Third Edition, Lott’s book is neither an opinion piece nor a lawyer’s brief. What it does is present highly sophisticated regression analysis of copious data relating to violent crime and guns city by city, county by county, and state by state, for several recent decades. Lott’s regression equations,


“account for not only all the law enforcement variables (arrest, execution, and     imprisonment rates), income and poverty measures, (poverty and unemployment rates, per capita real income, as well as income maintenance, retirement and unemployment payments), the thirty-six measures of demographic changes, and the national average changes in crime rates from year-to-year and average differences across states …. In addition, the [regressions] account for the difference in various concealed handgun laws and other types of gun control laws.”
 
In short, this is the most sophisticated and comprehensive presentation of the data relating to violent crime and guns in the world.

This and similar work relating to other countries worldwide shows that where the local population owns more guns, there is less crime. That it is because criminals avoid victims who are or might be armed, and prefer to prey on the defenseless and unarmed, such as in “gun-free” zones. And because the presence of guns that can be used in self defense stops the commission of the more violent crimes, such as murder.

This unparalleled scholarship has swept the states with newly enacted “concealed carry” laws. These laws require local authorities to issue permits to carry concealed handguns to those who meet the specified qualifications, known as “shall issue” laws. Alternative state laws authorize local authorities with the discretion to issue such concealed carry permits, known as “may issue’ laws. In the early 1980s, just 8 states had any such right to carry laws. Today, 39 states have shall issue laws and 9 more have may issue laws. That leaves just two states, Illinois and Wisconsin, that completely ban citizens from carrying concealed handguns, and the Seventh Circuit just ruled the Illinois ban to be unconstitutional under the Second Amendment.

As a result, by 2007 about 5 million Americans held permits to carry concealed handguns. Lott’ s Third Edition published in 2010 includes regressions that show these concealed carry laws result in:


“large drops in overall violent crime, murder, rape, and aggravated assault that begin right after the right to carry laws have gone into effect. In all those crime categories, the crime rates consistently stay much lower than they were before the law. The murder rate for these right to carry states fell consistently every year relative to non-right-to-carry states.”
 
Lott summarizes,


“All the results indicate that violent crime falls after right-to-carry laws are passed …. There is a large, statistically significant drop in murder rates across all specifications. The before-and-after average comparison implies that right-to-carry laws reduce murder by roughly 20 percent. In all cases, right-to-carry laws cause the trends in murder, rape, and robbery rates to fall.”
 
As David Kopel explained in the Wall Street Journal on December 17, armed permit holders often serve as the first line of defense against mass murderers:


“The media rarely mentions the mass murders that were thwarted by armed citizens at the Shoney Restaurant in Anniston, Ala (1991 ), the high school in Pearl, Miss. ( 1997), the middle school dance in Edinboro, Penn. ( 1998), and the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. (2007), among others. At the Clackamas Mall in Oregon last week, an active shooter murdered two people and then saw that a shopper, who had a handgun carry permit, had drawn a gun and was aiming at him. The murderer’s next shot was to kill himself.”
 
Israel, which can’t afford the weak minded irrationality of American liberals, has learned from all this and its own experience to stop terrorist attacks in its schools by arming its teachers. That has worked spectacularly to shut down terrorist attacks in Isreali schools, without a single accident or misuse of guns.

But CNN anchor Piers Morgan showed recently that he does not learn from experience when he unprofessionally attacked Gun Owners of America President Larry Pratt on the air as “an incredibly stupid man” because Pratt was aware of the above evidence, while Morgan was not. Morgan, who demonstrates on air every day why people have said that America and Britain are two nations separated by a common language, ignorantly insisted that America adopt the benighted gun control laws of his formerly great country of Britain.

George Mason Law School Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm, author of Guns and Violence: The English Experience (Harvard, 2002), explained why Morgan’s position was so silly in Thursday’s Wall Street Journal. In March, 1996, Thomas Hamilton, known to suffer mental illness, shot and killed 16 young children and their teacher in a primary school in the Scottish town of Dumb lane, wounding 10 other children and 3 more teachers before killing himself. That resulted in the Firearms Act of 1998, “which instituted a nearly complete ban on handguns. Owners of pistols were required to turn them in. The penalty for illegal possession of a pistol is up to 10 years in prison.”

The results of that law, which would be unconstitutional in the U.S. no matter how many guests Piers Morgan calls stupid on his show, were:


“Within a decade of the handgun ban and the confiscation of handguns from registered owners, crime with handguns had doubled according to British government crime reports. Gun crime, not a serious problem in the past, now is. Armed street gangs have some British police carrying guns for the first time.”
 
Lott adds, “The evidence should make gun control advocates pause, as all the gun bans that I have studied show that murder rates increase after the ban is enacted.”

The draconian British law nullifying self defense in that country did not end mass shootings there. In June 2010, “Derrick Bird, a taxi driver in Cumbria, shot his brother and a colleague then drove off through rural villages killing 12 people and injuring 11 more before killing himself.”

Based on all the evidence and experience above, what would work to stop tragedies like Sandy Hook Elementary is to offer a bonus of $2,500 a year to all teachers who obtain a conceal and carry permit, which requires training in every state, and who bring their gun to school every day, where it would be available in case of emergency. That would deter even mentally ill people from even trying mass murders at schools.

Lott explains that mass murderers choose so-called gun free zones such as schools or movie theaters or shopping malls where guns are prohibited because they know they can carry out their plan for mass murder there without being stopped. All gun free zone signs should be required to include a skull and crossbones with the admonition to the innocent “Enter at your own risk.”

Lott adds that these mass murderers are consciously choosing to commit suicide in carrying out their crimes. But they don’t want to go out quietly. They want to go out with a big bang to draw national and even worldwide attention to their pain and their plight. This is all a reflection of their mental illness.

Only the above policy of arming the teachers can stop such crazed madmen. The government does not even have the power to take away guns from dangerous criminals and insane mass murderers. We can’t even stop drugs and illegal aliens from crossing the border, and drugs and illegal guns even show up in prisons. Guns will always be available to those who want to obtain them. Legally mandated helplessness by the victims and those who could protect them only results in maximum vulnerability, as at Sandy Hook Elementary.

Moreover, Kopel also reports in Monday’s Journal, “A 2011 paper by Steven P. Segal at the University of California, Berkeley, Civil Commitment Law, Mental Health Services, and U.S. Homicide Rates, ‘found that a third of the state-to-state variation in homicide rates was attributable to the strength or weakness of involuntary civil commitment laws.” Wednesday’s Journal notes that a Hartford, Connecticut Judge Robert K. Killian, Jr. has been arguing for Connecticut to adopt stronger civil commitment laws, based on his own experience with repeat offenders. But the ACLU

was focused on protecting Adam Lanza’s civil liberties to mow down kindergarten students at Sandy Hook Elementary, so the Connecticut legislature never acted.

 The same paper editorializes that a better solution would be mandatory outpatient treatment laws for the mentally ill who are a danger to others without taking their medication, which has “shown results in limiting violence among the mentally ill.”

These policies would constitute a complete and effective program to prevent the next Sandy Hook Elementary atrocity. But they are based on evidence and reason, not mindless emotion, so don’t expect any “liberal” support.
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« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 09:24:47 AM »

They have so hijacked this topic it's not even funny... we need large mags and assault weapons because the government has them... not to stop a home invasion. FFS what part of that don't libtards get? WE NEED TO FIGHT THE GOVERNMENT IF THEY TRY TO TAKE OUR FREEDOM HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU DO THAT WITHOUT ASSAULT WEAPONS.

This topic is just like seperation of church and state... been high jacked to be no religion at all. But the original intent was the government can't force a certain religion on you. If an individual poloitician makes his decisions based on his or her religion THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT DON'T FUCKING VOTE FOR THEM IF YOU DISAGGREE.

Yes libtards make me meltdown. I feel like shaking you fucking morons.
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« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 09:30:10 AM »

If the police feel they need 30 rd mags to deal w the criminal element the rest of us have to deal with and live next to - why should they have means to deal w the thugs and the law abiding citizen not? 
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« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2013, 10:52:44 AM »

They have so hijacked this topic it's not even funny... we need large mags and assault weapons because the government has them... not to stop a home invasion. FFS what part of that don't libtards get? WE NEED TO FIGHT THE GOVERNMENT IF THEY TRY TO TAKE OUR FREEDOM HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU DO THAT WITHOUT ASSAULT WEAPONS.

This topic is just like seperation of church and state... been high jacked to be no religion at all. But the original intent was the government can't force a certain religion on you. If an individual poloitician makes his decisions based on his or her religion THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT DON'T FUCKING VOTE FOR THEM IF YOU DISAGGREE.

Yes libtards make me meltdown. I feel like shaking you fucking morons.

wow - retarded much

the government has a lot more than 30 round magazines

shouldn't you also need drones, heavy artillery, and even nuclear weapons

I mean if you actually think you're going to be fighting your own government you're a absolute fool if you think a 30 round magazine is going to do you any good

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« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2013, 11:05:08 AM »

We outnumber them idiot. Why do think they want to disarm us? If you aren't willing to participate in the system the founders set up... freedom by being armed against the gov...move somewhere where you can't fight back and accept your a bitch ass pussy who accepts what is given to you. Now go kill yourself.
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« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2013, 11:08:05 AM »

We outnumber them idiot. Why do think they want to disarm us? If you aren't willing to participate in the system the founders set up... freedom by being armed against the gov...move somewhere where you can't fight back and accept your a bitch ass pussy who accepts what is given to you. Now go kill yourself.

paranoid much

no one is trying to disarm you though from your posts it seems like it would be a good idea

you really think your 30 round magazines are going to do you and a handful of other nuts any good against the military.

think about it for more than a few seconds before answering
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« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2013, 11:22:01 AM »

paranoid much

no one is trying to disarm you though from your posts it seems like it would be a good idea

you really think your 30 round magazines are going to do you and a handful of other nuts any good against the military.

think about it for more than a few seconds before answering

This the problem...we are nuts for wanting to defend our families freedoms... but knuceheads like you are willing to toss your freedom away so easily... your completely normal. Give me a fucking break. If they don't want to disarm us for the reasons I said, please enlighten us with your wisdom of why they do. I'm sure it will be so brilliant you'll change my mind.
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« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2013, 11:29:22 AM »

This the problem...we are nuts for wanting to defend our families freedoms... but knuceheads like you are willing to toss your freedom away so easily... your completely normal. Give me a fucking break. If they don't want to disarm us for the reasons I said, please enlighten us with your wisdom of why they do. I'm sure it will be so brilliant you'll change my mind.

you're nut for thinking a 30 round clip is going to do you a damn bit of good

you're also nuts for thinking it's more likely you'll need to defend yourself against your government than it is that another mentally ill person will use that high mag clip to execute another 20 to 30 innocent people

I'm also thinking you're just plain old nuts and probably more likely to be the next "crazy shooter" than freedom fighter
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2013, 11:56:56 AM »

you're nut for thinking a 30 round clip is going to do you a damn bit of good

you're also nuts for thinking it's more likely you'll need to defend yourself against your government than it is that another mentally ill person will use that high mag clip to execute another 20 to 30 innocent people

I'm also thinking you're just plain old nuts and probably more likely to be the next "crazy shooter" than freedom fighter

Nice way to dodge the question. It starts with a clip it ends with unarmed citizens, which is the end of rule by the people. Believe what you will.
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2013, 11:58:39 AM »

you're nut for thinking a 30 round clip is going to do you a damn bit of good

you're also nuts for thinking it's more likely you'll need to defend yourself against your government than it is that another mentally ill person will use that high mag clip to execute another 20 to 30 innocent people

I'm also thinking you're just plain old nuts and probably more likely to be the next "crazy shooter" than freedom fighter

So why stop at 30 and not go for the 10 round too?
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2013, 12:36:41 PM »

LOL @ actually fighting the gov't through physical means and conflicts.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA AAA
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2013, 12:38:21 PM »

LOL @ actually fighting the gov't through physical means and conflicts.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA AAA

Good thing you were not around in 1776.   
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2013, 12:47:12 PM »

Good thing you were not around in 1776.   

Good thing you were not either.  Or else you would have been curled up in the fetal position crying about the thugs.  Since your usual method of Cut-N-Paste hadn't been invented yet.
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« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2013, 02:07:27 PM »

LOL @ actually fighting the gov't through physical means and conflicts.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA AAA

What part of we out number them don't you get? They could drop every nuke and we still outnumber them. Just look at this year you moron. Did Egypts people fight thier gov? Syria? Libya? You dumb shit laughing about the people fighting the gov when it's in the news every day. You look like a fool for even saying this. I ask again.... Why do you think they want to disarm us? Why does any gov want to disarm its own people?

My answer is SO YOU CAN'T DO WHAT EGYPT AND LIBYA JUST DID THIS YEAR YOU FUCKING JACKASS. What's your answer?


Seriously do you even comprehend how bad I just owned you?
How bad you owned yourself with thus dumbass post? Now go get your shine box. You are now my bitch.
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« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2013, 03:29:08 PM »

What part of we out number them don't you get? They could drop every nuke and we still outnumber them. Just look at this year you moron. Did Egypts people fight thier gov? Syria? Libya? You dumb shit laughing about the people fighting the gov when it's in the news every day. You look like a fool for even saying this. I ask again.... Why do you think they want to disarm us? Why does any gov want to disarm its own people?

My answer is SO YOU CAN'T DO WHAT EGYPT AND LIBYA JUST DID THIS YEAR YOU FUCKING JACKASS. What's your answer?


Seriously do you even comprehend how bad I just owned you?
How bad you owned yourself with thus dumbass post? Now go get your shine box. You are now my bitch.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Meltdown.

That was more entertaining than "fight your own gov't".  Next you will be claiming that Obama is sending black helicopters to get your guns.   One thing for sure, he must have already someone to get your brains.  Evident by the stupidity that reeks from your keyboard.

Keep crying though.


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« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2013, 04:03:35 PM »

Nice way to dodge the question. It starts with a clip it ends with unarmed citizens, which is the end of rule by the people. Believe what you will.
I certainly don't believe that nonsense

you sound seriously paranoid
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« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2013, 05:05:29 PM »

Straw/Lurker just curious if it was possible to get a total ban of all guns through would you guys support it?

If not where do you draw the line?
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« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2013, 05:06:48 PM »

Straw/Lurker just curious if it was possible to get a total ban of all guns through would you guys support it?

If not where do you draw the line?

Where did you ever get the notion I was anything but pro-guns?

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2013, 05:10:07 PM »

Straw/Lurker just curious if it was possible to get a total ban of all guns through would you guys support it?

If not where do you draw the line?

I would not be in favor of that

I'm pretty sure I've said that more than a few times

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« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2013, 05:17:33 PM »

ok, well then where would you draw the line?
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« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2013, 05:47:44 PM »

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January 3, 2013
Why Does Anybody Need a 30-Round Magazine?

By William A. Levinson
Senator Dianne Feinstein's latest divide-and-conquer attack on the Second Amendment has made even Senator Joe Manchin (D-WV) a sucker for the argument that private citizens do not need high-capacity magazines. These include not only 30-round rifle magazines, but 17-round magazines for handguns like the Glock.

Why does anybody need a high capacity magazine? If Senator Manchin were to educate himself by, for example, attending Front Sight's four-day defensive handgun class, he would learn the two primary answers:

(1) Failure to stop the aggressor, and

(2) Multiple aggressors

Failure to Stop

The classic .38 caliber revolver, with a capacity of six rounds, was the standard sidearm of the United States Army during the Moro insurrection in the Philippines. The Army found at least one dead Army officer with an empty sidearm, and his head split open by a machete or similar weapon. They also found the soldier's killer, who had finally bled to death. Six rounds of .38 were therefore not enough to convince even one determined attacker.

Police instructor Masaad Ayoob's The Truth About Self Protection adds an incident in which a female police officer saw a crazed gunman murder a woman, who then shot her as well before she could do anything. "She lay helpless as she watched a neighbor empty a .22 rifle into the killer; the neighbor then had to club the madman down with the empty rifle, again and again, before he succumbed."

Ayoob does not report the size of the .22's magazine, but the Moro insurrection exemplifies why even a 30-round rifle clip might not be enough to stop a crazed and determined attacker, such as one hopped up on a drug like PCP. "He had 32 Krag balls through him and was only stopped by the 33rd bullet -- a Colt .45 slug through both ears." The Krag-Jorgensen's 30-caliber cartridge was far more powerful than the .22 in Ayoob's example, but not sufficiently powerful to civilize this particular attacker even when fired in mass.

Colonel Jeff Cooper's To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth adds the case of a man who was prosecuted for shooting his attacker eight times with a .380 automatic pistol. The prosecutor admitted that the dead man had been the aggressor, but argued that the shooter had taken the law into his own hands by continuing to shoot an adversary who had "obviously" been disabled. Cooper, whom the defense called as an expert witness, cited a suicide in which "the deceased shot himself amidships four times with a .380 Webley. Presumably the first three hits did not convince him."

The .45-caliber Automatic Colt Pistol was the Army's specific solution to the "failure to stop" problem in the Philippines. A single hit from a .45 caliber bullet will (per Cooper) stop the aggressor 95 percent of the time. This does not mean, however, that 7 or 8 rounds are enough for all conceivable defensive scenarios. Front Sight teaches students to change magazines in (ideally) less than two seconds. The other issue that Senator Manchin fails to recognize is that of multiple attackers.

Gang Bangers and the Knockout Game

Front Sight's 4-day defensive handgun class included scenarios with multiple aggressors, including four gang bangers on a street and five or more in a house (along with innocent bystanders). Front Sight's standard doctrine is to fire a controlled pair into an aggressor's thoracic cavity and, in the event of failure to stop, another into his cranio-ocular cavity to take out his central nervous system.

In the street gang situation, though, one shot is fired into each gang member due to the need to economize on both time and ammunition; only those that don't go down (or flee) then get "seconds." You might conceivably stop four gang members with seven or eight rounds of .45 ACP; that is what the cartridge was designed to do. A small man or woman who can handle only a 9 mm comfortably might not be able to end the incident even with 15 or 17 rounds, unless he or she can make the far more difficult head shots. It is particularly telling that most police officers carry either .45s or high-capacity 9 mm sidearms.

Then there is the knockout game, in which a street gang selects a victim at random, knocks him or her down, and then maybe beats him or her to a pulp. Here is an example that involved six individuals; only one struck a blow, but the others seemed to approve. Although the Web page and the book it promotes focuses on black racial violence, there is similar Caucasian-on-black crime, such as that perpetrated by the Ku Klux Klan. In any event, if there are six (or more) bad guys, you are obviously going to need far more than six bullets.

The anti-Second Amendment camp may argue that the teacher who was assaulted in this video would not have had time to defend himself with a firearm or anything else, because his attacker hit him by surprise. (While use of a firearm in response to a fist might normally be considered excessive force, multiple aggressors, even unarmed ones, create a disparity of force situation that might indeed justify a lethal response. The same applies if a single unarmed aggressor is much younger, bigger, and/or stronger than the victim, e.g. a teenage punk against a senior citizen or woman.) This is where the five conditions of mental awareness, as taught by Front Sight, come into play.

States of Mental Awareness

The knockout game victim was in what Front Sight calls Condition White, which means he was not paying attention to his surroundings. Front Sight recommends living in Condition Yellow. This does not mean a state of paranoia but it includes, for example, not getting too close to alleys or other positions from which you can be ambushed. It also means looking around you when you are handling your car keys in a parking lot. Violent criminals often avoid people who are clearly alert; they, like all predators in the animal kingdom, don't want to take a chance with anybody or anything that might hurt them.

Condition Orange means you have identified a potential threat. Had the teacher been in Condition Yellow, he would have seen the six young males in time to recognize them as such. Condition Orange can prevent a confrontation before it even becomes a confrontation. You don't get hurt, and you don't have to explain to the police why you hurt somebody else.

Condition Red means a known threat is in front of you. In the case of an imminent "knockout game," you have laid out in your mind how you are going to put the gang bangers down if they escalate to Condition Black by initiating hostilities.

Senator Feinstein's latest attack on the Second Amendment relies entirely on public ignorance of firearms and their legitimate uses, and this ignorance extends even to many people who support the principles of the Second Amendment. Education is the cure for ignorance and Front Sight, along with Gunsite (founded by Colonel Cooper) offers some of the best.

William A. Levinson, P.E. is the author of several books on business management including content on organizational psychology, as well as manufacturing productivity and quality.


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To kill kids?
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« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2013, 04:53:47 AM »

If the police feel they need 30 rd mags to deal w the criminal element the rest of us have to deal with and live next to - why should they have means to deal w the thugs and the law abiding citizen not? 

they are the police, you are not

hope this helps
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