Obama voters in state of shock as 2% withholding hike takes hold.

[MCWAY]

So you have no better response, so you return to the "don't make me laugh" argument.

I see...

You only expect better when my opinion agrees with yours... In this instance it does not so you "expect better".

I would expect better from you than to side skirt an issue or to use "technicalities" to appear right.

Either you are paying more this year or you are not... That's really what it comes down to.

Anything else is just spin.

You can refute my statements above?

If so, please do.

Indeed, it is just spin. Unable to admit that Obama lied through his teeth about taxes and the middle class (among other things: halving the deficit, immigration reform in year one of term one, etc), Straw is clucking this preposterous notion that the lion's share of Obama voters KNEW their taxes would go up, along with those of the EEEEVVVVVIIIILLLL rich people but happily voted for it anyway.

[tu_holmes]

ok, let's try this

Can you and I agree that it was a blatant public fact that the payroll cuts were:

1.  only supposed to last one year
2.  were very publicly opposed by Repubs and they also opposed extending them.
3.  eventually only agreed to extend them for 2 months
4.  finally agreed to extend them through 2012

Can we agree that the above information was abundantly available to anyone who bother to pay attention

yes or no and then we can proceed

We can agree that it was information that was available...

That said, you must now agree that society and most people do not read or pay attention and are highly uninformed.

You must also then agree that it is on record that many legislatures who vote on bills do not know what they contain and simply vote based upon the party of the bill originator.

Do you agree with these statements?

[Straw Man]

We can agree that it was information that was available...

That said, you must now agree that society and most people do not read or pay attention and are highly uninformed.

You must also then agree that it is on record that many legislatures who vote on bills do not know what they contain and simply vote based upon the party of the bill originator.

Do you agree with these statements?

I don't agree with your statements

If they were informed enough to know about the payroll tax cut then they would de facto have to been informed enough to know it was only supposed to last 12 months since that was how it was talked about at the time. 

Now, can you tell me when Obama ran for re-election did he promise to extend the payroll tax cuts beyond 2012 (hint - he can't actually do that by himself as I'm sure you know)

Here is another hint for you:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/21/payroll-tax-cut-obama-romney_n_1997274.html

Is your answer to that question yes or no

[tonymctones]

We can agree that it was information that was available...

That said, you must now agree that society and most people do not read or pay attention and are highly uninformed.

You must also then agree that it is on record that many legislatures who vote on bills do not know what they contain and simply vote based upon the party of the bill originator.

Do you agree with these statements?

He will not...

[tu_holmes]

I don't agree with your statements

If they were informed enough to know about the payroll tax cut then they would de facto have to been informed enough to know it was only supposed to last 12 months since that was how it was talked about at the time. 

Now, can you tell me when Obama ran for re-election did he promise to extend the payroll tax cuts beyond 2012 (hint - he can't actually do that by himself as I'm sure you know)

Here is another hint for you:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/21/payroll-tax-cut-obama-romney_n_1997274.html

Is your answer to that question yes or no

If you do not agree with my statements then we have no reason to discuss further... The simple fact is that you are trying very hard to be antagonistic about the well known fact that people in this country are very ill informed and that even the informed people have so much information shoved at them that they often lose sight of some of the more mundane and myopic items at any time.

I'm sure if someone during the debates had actually said, no matter what, your taxes will go up, even on the middle class, that people would have taken notice.

If you insist on saying otherwise, then you are just being disingenuous and there is nothing else to discuss.

[Straw Man]

If you do not agree with my statements then we have no reason to discuss further... The simple fact is that you are trying very hard to be antagonistic about the well known fact that people in this country are very ill informed and that even the informed people have so much information shoved at them that they often lose sight of some of the more mundane and myopic items at any time.

I'm sure if someone during the debates had actually said, no matter what, your taxes will go up, even on the middle class, that people would have taken notice.

If you insist on saying otherwise, then you are just being disingenuous and there is nothing else to discuss.

I gave you my reason for not agreeing with your statement and also provided abundant proof that the temporary status of the tax cuts was a WELL KNOWN PUBLIC FACT

If you knew about the tax cuts then you would have also been HIGHLY LIKELY to know they were temporary

If you don't agree with that then you're right that we have nothing more to talk about

I will just add that Obama NEVER ran for re-election on the premise that he would or could extend this temporary tax cut so no Obama voter would have any reason to feel upset about it.   

[tu_holmes]

I gave you my reason for not agreeing with your statement and also provided abundant proof that the temporary status of the tax cuts was a WELL KNOWN PUBLIC FACT

If you knew about the tax cuts then you would have also been HIGHLY LIKELY to know they were temporary

If you don't agree with that then you're right that we have nothing more to talk about

I will just add that Obama NEVER ran for re-election on the premise that he would or could extend this temporary tax cut so no Obama voter would have any reason to feel upset about it.   

Yes... as I said... you are being disingenuous and we will go with that.

Let's also not forget the quote that Obama said... "They found a rather all-encompassing quote from Obama in which he said, as a “firm pledge,” familes making less than $250,000 will not “see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.”

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/

So as you can now see quite plainly... unless you again decide to be disingenuous... That Obama DID in fact campaign on that.

Please retort at your leisure.

[tonymctones]

LOL straw just give it a rest bro

[Straw Man]

Yes... as I said... you are being disingenuous and we will go with that.

Let's also not forget the quote that Obama said... "They found a rather all-encompassing quote from Obama in which he said, as a “firm pledge,” familes making less than $250,000 will not “see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.”

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/515/no-family-making-less-250000-will-see-any-form-tax/

So as you can now see quite plainly... unless you again decide to be disingenuous... That Obama DID in fact campaign on that.

Please retort at your leisure.

tell me the date of that quote?

can you?

[tu_holmes]

tell me the date of that quote?

can you?

I can... Does it matter?

Do you believe the date matters... Would there be some reason why a promise made at one date no longer matters at another? Does the quote have some time table attached to it?

[Straw Man]

I can... Does it matter?

Do you believe the date matters... Would there be some reason why a promise made at one date no longer matters at another?

of course it does

what is the date ?

[tu_holmes]

of course it does

what is the date ?

2008 when he was first running for president... I do not believe the date matters.

Again, there is no time table on a promise.

[tonymctones]

Does the quote have some time table attached to it?

when its a liberal making the quote, absolutely

when its a conservative making the quote, absolutely NOT

[tu_holmes]

when its a liberal making the quote, absolutely

when its a conservative making the quote, absolutely NOT

As I already stated... I do not believe a promise to not do something has an expiration date.

[Straw Man]

2008 when he was first running for president... I do not believe the date matters.

Again, there is no time table on a promise.

I believe it does matter and here is why

payroll taxes are not higher now (2013) than they were when he made that statement

[tonymctones]

do you not believe letting lower rates expire is a form of raising tax rates?

[Straw Man]

do you not believe letting lower rates expire is a form of raising tax rates?

seriously dude

why are you asking a question I've personally answered for you at least 2 or 3 times already?

[tu_holmes]

I believe it does matter and here is why

payroll taxes are not higher now (2013) than they were when he made that statement

You and the people over at The Washington Post are in disagreement then... as well as politifact.

At least we can see you are simply disagreeing to be disagreeable... No because you really have any reason of merit.

[Straw Man]

You and the people over at The Washington Post are in disagreement then... as well as politifact.

At least we can see you are simply disagreeing to be disagreeable... No because you really have any reason of merit.

so what  ?

He made that statement in 2008 and taxes are not higher now than they were in 2008 for people making less than 250k

that is a fact

[tonymctones]

The payroll tax rate they are paying now is 3.5% higher than they were paying a week ago straw, do you agree with that?

[tu_holmes]

so what  ?

He made that statement in 2008 and taxes are not higher now than they were in 2008 for people making less than 250k

that is a fact

He did not use the term "today"... He said they would not see ANY tax increase... ANY.

Get used to the 3 letter words.

ANY means ANY... Not just from 2008.

ANY is ALL encompassing... I'm sure you understand the word.

It's like if I say I won't post on getbig more than X posts a day... YOU WILL NOT SEE ANY increase in my posting... and I decrease, then I come back and post the same rate... There IS in fact, an increase.

So I would have lied.

[Straw Man]

The payroll tax rate they are paying now is 3.5% higher than they were paying a week ago straw, do you agree with that?

of course

that exactly how it was intended to be

how could you have missed that after all this time?

[tonymctones]

not only did he say "any"

he said "any form of tax increase"

fact is letting a lower rate expire is a form of tax increase.

[tu_holmes]

not only did he say "any"

he said "any form of tax increase"

fact is letting a lower rate expire is a form of tax increase.

I can not be ANY more clear on the matter.

[Straw Man]

not only did he say "any"

he said "any form of tax increase"

fact is letting a lower rate expire is a form of tax increase.

no it's not but I know you want to believe that so go right ahead