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Author Topic: People who have become Muslim  (Read 29307 times)
avxo
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« Reply #325 on: July 02, 2013, 09:35:08 AM »

On the topic of original sin... if there ever was a bigger load of crap, I haven't found it. How could any serious, rational and moral human being support a system that punishes someone for something that's outside of one's choice - something which, supposedly, taints one by virtue of being born.

That concept alone should be enough to have people rushing to abandon Christianity like people rushed to abandoned the Titanic after shit got real...
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« Reply #326 on: July 02, 2013, 01:02:32 PM »

Interesting.  So then does that mean they have salvation and will go to heaven when they die?  Or is it a matter of continued submission or ritual re: the prayers 5x/day etc?  

We go to heaven by God's mercy and secondarily by our good behaviour and good actions. Unlike in Christianity there is a concept of Justice in Islam. That's the key difference. You will be rewarded for good action and held accountable for evil and bad actions. You are held accountable for what you do and do not get a 'free pass' just because you wish so.

Those who profess in worshipping God alone even if they are put in the hellfire for whatever they might have done even if minor for a period of time will ultimately be given heaven but will be held accountable and punished for the evil they did until they are purified and justice is served.

Those who all out deny God or worship other than God will be in hellfire for eternity regardless out of their arrogance.

The question is often asked what about those who never heard the message? They will be tested accordingly in this life with what knowledge they have and what they do wit hit and how they act upon it and after passing away a test as well to test what they chose of their own choosing.

Second question those generations before? Likewise they will be held accountable as to what level of knowledge they were given.

So no one will be able to say they were not warned or not given a fair chance in this life.
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« Reply #327 on: July 02, 2013, 01:34:17 PM »

The problem is Islam has some interesting ideas about what good, especially when dealing with heathens.
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« Reply #328 on: July 02, 2013, 02:07:29 PM »

We go to heaven by God's mercy and secondarily by our good behaviour and good actions. Unlike in Christianity there is a concept of Justice in Islam. That's the key difference. You will be rewarded for good action and held accountable for evil and bad actions. You are held accountable for what you do and do not get a 'free pass' just because you wish so.

Those who profess in worshipping God alone even if they are put in the hellfire for whatever they might have done even if minor for a period of time will ultimately be given heaven but will be held accountable and punished for the evil they did until they are purified and justice is served.

Those who all out deny God or worship other than God will be in hellfire for eternity regardless out of their arrogance.

The question is often asked what about those who never heard the message? They will be tested accordingly in this life with what knowledge they have and what they do wit hit and how they act upon it and after passing away a test as well to test what they chose of their own choosing.

Second question those generations before? Likewise they will be held accountable as to what level of knowledge they were given.

So no one will be able to say they were not warned or not given a fair chance in this life.

hey ahmed, hope all is well with you.

within Christianity salvation through Christ is not about a "free pass to continue sinning".....it's actually quite the opposite.   As believers in Christ we are saved by grace through faith and thereby justified before God and found righteous.  We are not saved from sin or death, we are saved from the wrath and judgement of God....his divine justice at work.  And thereinlies the indwelling of the Holy Spirt that comes upon new believers and guides the believer in all that they do…the spirit of the living God made manifest and tangible in our lives.  The new believer doesn't simply "turn from sin", but changes their mind about the sin altogether (this is the meaning of repentance) and has chosen to life in accordance with the will of God in their life.  Certainly we'll make mistakes along the way, but it's because of Christ's act on Calvary's cross that we are saved from the wrath of God.  Life is in the blood and it’s only through the perfectly shed blood of Jesus Christ that all can be free from the ravages of sin in our lives.  As believers we are certainly to engage in works of righteousness in accordance with God’s will, but those works alone are not to enough to reconcile us with God.  It is only through Jesus Christ that we are made whole, made anew and sin removed from us and scattered as far as the east is from the west.  

It’s why the Son of God left the eternal, the divine, the infinite and entered into his finite creation on earth as a man.  First he came to demonstrate that he was God, then he showed us how to life for him and with one another in harmony and then he it made it possible for all to life forever with him.
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« Reply #329 on: July 02, 2013, 03:33:44 PM »

hey ahmed, hope all is well with you.

within Christianity salvation through Christ is not about a "free pass to continue sinning".....it's actually quite the opposite.   As believers in Christ we are saved by grace through faith and thereby justified before God and found righteous.  We are not saved from sin or death, we are saved from the wrath and judgement of God....his divine justice at work.  And thereinlies the indwelling of the Holy Spirt that comes upon new believers and guides the believer in all that they do…the spirit of the living God made manifest and tangible in our lives.  The new believer doesn't simply "turn from sin", but changes their mind about the sin altogether (this is the meaning of repentance) and has chosen to life in accordance with the will of God in their life.  Certainly we'll make mistakes along the way, but it's because of Christ's act on Calvary's cross that we are saved from the wrath of God.  Life is in the blood and it’s only through the perfectly shed blood of Jesus Christ that all can be free from the ravages of sin in our lives.  As believers we are certainly to engage in works of righteousness in accordance with God’s will, but those works alone are not to enough to reconcile us with God.  It is only through Jesus Christ that we are made whole, made anew and sin removed from us and scattered as far as the east is from the west.  

It’s why the Son of God left the eternal, the divine, the infinite and entered into his finite creation on earth as a man.  First he came to demonstrate that he was God, then he showed us how to life for him and with one another in harmony and then he it made it possible for all to life forever with him.


Why is the Christian God angry and wrathful? And if he is angry and wrathful, why would he devise a plan that requires that he sacrifice himself (as Jesus) to himself (as God) so that others may gain salvation? Why not just forgive everyone outright, let us live our live free of threats of the “love me or else...” kind?
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« Reply #330 on: July 02, 2013, 04:47:37 PM »

Why is the Christian God angry and wrathful? And if he is angry and wrathful, why would he devise a plan that requires that he sacrifice himself (as Jesus) to himself (as God) so that others may gain salvation? Why not just forgive everyone outright, let us live our live free of threats of the “love me or else...” kind?

In Islam God forgives outright if you are sincere and repentant and proceed to do good. No intermediary or sacrifice needed. However if you die in a state of criminality or sin or evil or immorality you will be held accountable to it on the day of judgement.
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« Reply #331 on: July 02, 2013, 04:51:10 PM »

In Islam God forgives outright if you are sincere and repentant and proceed to do good. No intermediary or sacrifice needed. However if you die in a state of criminality or sin or evil or immorality you will be held accountable to it on the day of judgement.

But why is forgiveness necessary? Why would an all-knowing deity create me to judge me? Your deity sounds little different from a kid with a magnifying glass that burns ants by focusing the sunlight on them.
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« Reply #332 on: July 02, 2013, 04:51:39 PM »

hey ahmed, hope all is well with you.

...


Hey MOS, no matter how you sugar coat it, it really dose come down to you are 'saved' just because you accept Jesus as God and if you don't you go to hell. In practice Christians do all kinds of immoral stuff and are saved just because works and deeds don't matter 'faith' matters. As long a syou believe in jesus dying for your sins.

It's an unjust, illogical, and unfair make belief. Because in the end you have no assurance from God Himself that you are going to heaven but you are professing it like so. That's exactly what God says to those who claim they are 'going to heaven' with assurance and God responds to them in exactly that way.

I've worked with evangelical Christians and they are all emotion about this stuff, but I just ask them where do you have this signed and approved by God? Sorry I don't buy into it.

Islam teaches accountability and responsibility and yes we go to heaven by what I mentioned in the previous post, number one first and foremost God's mercy and secondly faith and deeds because of justice being served to all. What good is your so called faith if you sin and do immoral things but just speak of faith through words and emotions.

Likewise where is justice for the oppressed? Why should criminals be unpunished or held accountable for the things you did to them?
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« Reply #333 on: July 02, 2013, 04:53:48 PM »

But why is forgiveness necessary? Why would an all-knowing deity create me to judge me? Your deity sounds little different from a kid with a magnifying glass that burns ants by focusing the sunlight on them.

Because the world is not an accident and just chaos, it's justice and order. When there is chaos and imbalance there are problems. God is just and He gave us free will and choices but also set about rules and set forth consequences. You are in no place to set rules upon God but certainly the one that created you has the authority to place rules and conditions upon you. And you are not all knowing and God is all knowing and knows what's better than what you think is better.
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« Reply #334 on: July 02, 2013, 04:55:04 PM »

Because the world is not an accident and just chaos, it's justice and order. When there is chaos and imbalance there are problems. God is just and He gave us free will and choices but also set about rules and set forth consequences. You are in no place to set rules upon God but certainly the one that created you has the authority to place rules and conditions upon you. And you are not all knowing and God is all knowing and knows what's better than what you think is better.

This answers nothing at all. When you can provide a sane, rational answer, we can talk about it.
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« Reply #335 on: July 02, 2013, 04:56:49 PM »

This answers nothing at all. When you can provide a sane, rational answer, we can talk about it.

Take up knitting because you'll be waiting a long time.
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« Reply #336 on: July 02, 2013, 04:58:22 PM »

This answers nothing at all. When you can provide a sane, rational answer, we can talk about it.

So you ask why God the all knowing does something and you who don't know everything are not satisfied why God would ever tell you anything because he knows everything and you don't.

You want to impose rules upon God or question why God does something, yet you ask why God would ever impose rules upon YOU and why you should do something because God says so or be held accountable?

Truly irony in everything being said.

Why should a computer do what it's told? Should it rebel against us for creating it? Simpleton example. It doesn't even equate in the slightest, but to make you think. The computer doesn't know beyond what it's instructed to do, it doesn't know beyond it's inputs and outputs the reality of this realm. If it messes up or crashes it's done for and you likewise are created with certain instructions and conditions. Who is the computer to question us it's creator, likewise with you questioning your creator.

The creator has the authority to do whatever is deemed right and being all knowing vs us being in our limited form factor, it makes alot more sense that we don't know what's best for us but God would.
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« Reply #337 on: July 02, 2013, 05:02:05 PM »

So you ask why God the all knowing does something and you who don't know everything are not satisfied why God would ever tell you anything because he knows everything and you don't.

You want to impose rules upon God or question why God does something, yet you ask why God would ever impose rules upon YOU and why you should do something because God says so or be held accountable?

Truly irony in everything being said.

Why should a computer do what it's told? Should it rebel against us for creating it? Simpleton example. It doesn't even equate in the slightest, but to make you think. The computer doesn't know beyond what it's instructed to do, if it messes up it crashes and you are created with certain instructions and who is the computer to question it's creator, likewise with you questioning your creator.

Your answer assumes that god exists and created us. That's a baseless assertion. And your question asking about computers shows exactly what you consider and see people as - objects with no free will or self-determination that must do as they're told.

Congratulations.
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« Reply #338 on: July 02, 2013, 05:06:07 PM »

Your answer assumes that god exists and created us. That's a baseless assertion. And your question asking about computers shows exactly what you consider and see people as - objects with no free will or self-determination that must do as they're told.

Congratulations.

What I don't see is an automaton poster but I believe at the other end is someone, and I have no idea why IT is congratulating myself or rather itself on its own assertion of superiority and arrogance. Meaning you.

I said it's a simpleton example to make you thing, not the same in the slightest. The creation of the computer doesn't even come close to the creation and construct of the human.

So you outright deny that God exists or created us and therefore you are done. Well good for you. It's in fact you who only sees existence of things being objects and materials alone. So really you are just an object waiting to disintegrate, you have no conciousness or soul or purpose. You just have this assumption that you have a conciousness, because uhm oh your own self indulgence in your own existence? You are just a thing waiting to hit the ground, a useless construct of earth's elements.

Arrogance and this type of rational gets you ego points not results through any sort of rational deductive reasoning.

You are an atheist so you deny God and ridicule any rational discussion on the topic.

You are the one that posed a rhetorical even question as an atheist why would an all knowing being set rules or ask for conduct, I answered you but you don't like the answer that you have an authority above you nor the example of being compared to a computer which is a simpleton construct for US, likewise we are simpleton to an all knowing being.

How significant do you think you are? An ant? Really that's true, you're just but an ant, and yet you argue like you are your own god with arrogance. You have an anger at the idea that an All knowing Creator/God would ever impose anything on you. IMAGINE THAT, why should you ever be greatful for existing or being created?

You think God is arrogant for setting rules upon you? Nope, it's you who's arrogant.
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« Reply #339 on: July 02, 2013, 06:14:09 PM »

What I don't see is an automaton poster but I believe at the other end is someone, and I have no idea why IT is congratulating myself or rather itself on its own assertion of superiority and arrogance. Meaning you.

I'm congratulating you because in one post you managed to highlight your worldview perfectly - human beings are nothing but "things" to you and the Master whose ideology you serve and to whom you bow down to.

I said it's a simpleton example to make you thing, not the same in the slightest. The creation of the computer doesn't even come close to the creation and construct of the human.

And yet you think that the computer, which is something mindless and does not possess consciousness is an appropriate example to use. A much better example would have been a child - a distinct and separate entity created from two people, which cannot care for itself and completely reliant upon then for many years. And yet, you didn't use that example. Not that it would make your argument any stronger if you had - after all, one only needs to point out that parents routinely treat their children much better than your god treats his.


So you outright deny that God exists or created us and therefore you are done.

You assert there's a god, it's incumbent upon you to prove it using logic and solid arguments, and without resorting to faith or to elements that must be believed on faith.


It's in fact you who only sees existence of things being objects and materials alone. So really you are just an object waiting to disintegrate, you have no conciousness or soul or purpose. You just have this assumption that you have a conciousness, because uhm oh your own self indulgence in your own existence? You are just a thing waiting to hit the ground, a useless construct of earth's elements.

I believe we each have consciousness. What I don't believe is that this consciousness is distinct and separate from our bodies. I don't believe in a "spirit" which you do, neither do I believe in an afterlife.

You're welcome to believe in those things if you want, but I submit to you that in doing so you forego rationality, but you devalue and cheapen the concept your own life and the life of everyone else.

Tell me one thing Ahmed... if you really believe there's an afterlife waiting for you, why are you still around? Why not just kill yourself now? Don't hide behind cowardly excuses. If you believe in an afterlife then you should be eager to shed this corporeal body and go into that higher plane of existence as soon as possible. And yet


Arrogance and this type of rational gets you ego points not results through any sort of rational deductive reasoning.

You are welcome to point out any irrational or unsubstantiated statement I have made.


You are an atheist so you deny God and ridicule any rational discussion on the topic.

I am an atheist, yes. I deny the concept of deities generally, yes. As for rational discussion on this topic, when you choose to deal with the supernatural, you are automatically outside the realm of logic and rationality.


You are the one that posed a rhetorical even question as an atheist why would an all knowing being set rules or ask for conduct, I answered you but you don't like the answer that you have an authority above you nor the example of being compared to a computer which is a simpleton construct for US, likewise we are simpleton to an all knowing being.

Right. I asked that question and I will ask it again. Your answer boiled down to "who are you to question God?" Well, you know what. I am me and I am asking the damn question. And if God (or his supporters, in his stead) can't answer it rationally and without resorting to "because God said so! BELIEVE OR ELSE!" and shaking their fists at me that speaks volumes.


How significant do you think you are? An ant? Really that's true, you're just but an ant, and yet you argue like you are your own god with arrogance. You have an anger at the idea that an All knowing Creator/God would ever impose anything on you. IMAGINE THAT, why should you ever be greatful for existing or being created?

How significant I am isn't important; if I spoke your language, I'd say that I am as significant as any other of Allah's children. But I don't speak bullshit.

You imply that I have "an anger at the idea that an All knowing Creator/God would ever impose anything on you." I don't. I don't get angry at imaginary beings or religious stories dreamed up long centuries ago. I just don't understand how any rational, self-respecting person could believe those stories.

But even if your religious nonsense was true and I was, indeed, created, I would find the idea of someone creating me in order to function as his servant offensive. Why would I be grateful to or show any fealty towards a creature that created me only to force me to do his bidding at the threat of eternal punishment? Such a creature wouldn't be worthy of worship or fealty. It would be worthy of contempt.


You think God is arrogant for setting rules upon you? Nope, it's you who's arrogant

No, I don't think that God is arrogant anymore than I think a pink unicorn-platypus hybrid or a Pokemon is arrogant. I do not think about God at all because I concern myself with the rational, the real, the here and the now; not the irrational, the fictional, the supernatural and the after.

I do, however, think that believers have chosen to forego logic and rationality and focus on faith and mysticism. But I don't think that's arrogant at all; just a natural conclusion based on their behavior.

If your answer to this post is going to consist of "who are you to tell god what he can do" then don't bother; that answer would only prove that you either didn't read or didn't understand anything I said on here.
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« Reply #340 on: July 02, 2013, 11:04:15 PM »

You are the one that asked why would an all knowing being require such and such. So then when you get a response you turn around oh it's all baseless because you are making a premise that there is a God/Creator.

Cynical much? You ask a question you get an answer then despite your rhetorical question (as an atheist) you turn into a further arrogant cynic.

Will not waste further time or bother more responding to a troll that's derailing this thread. Have a nice life, the grave awaits us all. Be ready for it.
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« Reply #341 on: July 03, 2013, 09:30:08 AM »

You are the one that asked why would an all knowing being require such and such. So then when you get a response you turn around oh it's all baseless because you are making a premise that there is a God/Creator.

Cynical much? You ask a question you get an answer then despite your rhetorical question (as an atheist) you turn into a further arrogant cynic.

Will not waste further time or bother more responding to a troll that's derailing this thread. Have a nice life, the grave awaits us all. Be ready for it.

a_ahmed, since Islam does not guarantee your salvation, according to your faith, you are likely to end up with avxo in the afterlife for eternity.  Be ready for it. 
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« Reply #342 on: July 03, 2013, 09:35:05 AM »

Speak for yourself man worshipper. The arrogance with which you feel so assured you are going to heaven is laughable. As if God signed your ticket personally. All hearsay wishful conjecture on your part.

No matter which way it's sugar coated, Christians believe they go to heaven just because they say Jesus is God and those that reject a human (Jesus) being God go to hell. Deeds and actions don't matter, you are saved. 'God' committed suicide for your sins. You are saved. Such brilliant logic and justice. Because you know Jesus loves you  and that sounds preachy to say over and over again even though Jesus doesn't say things like that in the bible but hye its still preachy!
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« Reply #343 on: July 03, 2013, 09:39:41 AM »

Speak for yourself man worshipper. The arrogance with which you feel so assured you are going to heaven is laughable.

I laugh when religious people say things like this.  Oh the irony.
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« Reply #344 on: July 03, 2013, 10:55:53 AM »

Hey MOS, no matter how you sugar coat it, it really dose come down to you are 'saved' just because you accept Jesus as God and if you don't you go to hell. In practice Christians do all kinds of immoral stuff and are saved just because works and deeds don't matter 'faith' matters. As long a syou believe in jesus dying for your sins.

It's an unjust, illogical, and unfair make belief. Because in the end you have no assurance from God Himself that you are going to heaven but you are professing it like so. That's exactly what God says to those who claim they are 'going to heaven' with assurance and God responds to them in exactly that way.

I've worked with evangelical Christians and they are all emotion about this stuff, but I just ask them where do you have this signed and approved by God? Sorry I don't buy into it.

Islam teaches accountability and responsibility and yes we go to heaven by what I mentioned in the previous post, number one first and foremost God's mercy and secondly faith and deeds because of justice being served to all. What good is your so called faith if you sin and do immoral things but just speak of faith through words and emotions.

Likewise where is justice for the oppressed? Why should criminals be unpunished or held accountable for the things you did to them?


The main disconnect here is the Holy Spirit’s involvement in the lives of believers because this is the point in which you tend to dismiss the discussion via the term “emotion” because this facet of belief is foreign to you (and that’s ok);  still, it’s the crux of the matter and the definite answer to your reservation.   This is why I noted previously that Holy Spirit indwells the believer and guides the believer.   I also noted that the believer repents of their sin…..literally changes their mind about their sin and lives according to the will of God because they’ve been made anew.  Salvation in Christ is not simply an utterance of words, it’s a transformation of character, a transformation of desires, a transformation of vision and perception.    

Sure there are plenty of folks that call themselves Christians, but they are nominal Christians at best.  They simply gave themselves the title “Christian” or deem themselves “spiritual” or “religious” LOL.   These folks remain embroiled in their sin because they are without the Holy Spirit.  The true believer submits and lives according to the will of God in all things.  Their former selves are gone and they are “born again” in the spirit.  New believers are often baptized and this is a public profession of their faith in Jesus Christ….an outward expression of an inner commitment and a life changed.

When Jesus Christ was here on earth he repeatedly held his disciples accountable and corrected their misdeeds.  Prior to Christ’s command for the great commission he told his disciples that Holy Spirit would come at Pentecost to help them (that choice of word “helper” in scripture for the Holy Spirit always made me chuckle a bit….one of the biggest, humblest understatements in the history of mankind LOL…but I digress).  The same Holy Spirit that indwelled the disciples then indwells believers today, guiding them, holding them accountable and helping them align themselves with the will of God…..avoiding sin.    The Lord knows the contents of our character and he absolutely knows those that truly claim him as God, Lord and Savior…..these folks strive to live a new life in Christ devoid of sin.
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« Reply #345 on: July 03, 2013, 11:04:03 AM »

Speak for yourself man worshipper. The arrogance with which you feel so assured you are going to heaven is laughable. As if God signed your ticket personally. All hearsay wishful conjecture on your part.

No matter which way it's sugar coated, Christians believe they go to heaven just because they say Jesus is God and those that reject a human (Jesus) being God go to hell. Deeds and actions don't matter, you are saved. 'God' committed suicide for your sins. You are saved. Such brilliant logic and justice. Because you know Jesus loves you  and that sounds preachy to say over and over again even though Jesus doesn't say things like that in the bible but hye its still preachy!

I did not say it, Jesus did.

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
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« Reply #346 on: July 03, 2013, 12:26:12 PM »

Mos: no matter how long your paragraphs it still comes down to the same thing. You go to heaven because Jesus died for your sins, 'God' comitted suicide because of man's sins and therefore now you are saved as long as you worship the god-man jesus. You 'should' do good, but hey it doesn't matter its not deeds that matter. No matter which way it's spun it's the same story.

Loco: All those have context, but I am not going to waste time arguing with you again as you just mindlessly copy paste verses a million times even when it's been shown to you before their context (already been done before). After all you thought the old testament 'we', 'us' (the plural royal I) was the trinity. It just shows how much you know and how much you make up on the go to satisfy your emotional beliefs.
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« Reply #347 on: July 03, 2013, 12:38:00 PM »

Mos: no matter how long your paragraphs it still comes down to the same thing. You go to heaven because Jesus died for your sins, 'God' comitted suicide because of man's sins and therefore now you are saved as long as you worship the god-man jesus. You 'should' do good, but hey it doesn't matter its not deeds that matter. No matter which way it's spun it's the same story.

Loco: All those have context, but I am not going to waste time arguing with you again as you just mindlessly copy paste verses a million times even when it's been shown to you before their context (already been done before). After all you thought the old testament 'we', 'us' (the plural royal I) was the trinity. It just shows how much you know and how much you make up on the go to satisfy your emotional beliefs.

Well ahmed, what I've said here in this thread I've already said more times before than I have fingers and toes to count LOL!

How was it you responded to avxo just recently?

So you outright deny that God exists or created us and therefore you are done. Well good for you.

You ask a question you get an answer then despite your rhetorical question (as an atheist) you turn into a further arrogant cynic.

I'm sorry, but there's nothing I can do to overcome selective reading or refusal to acknowledge.   Have a blessed day.


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« Reply #348 on: July 03, 2013, 12:55:06 PM »

The difference is I am not trying to sugarcoat a belief, I am saying it plainly while you are saying the exact same thing as what I said except with extra sugar on top.

You contradict yourself that's the problem. I just summarized what you are trying to say.

The difference between what I believe and what you believe.

I believe:
-----------
-We go to heaven by God's mercy. Do you think you can repay God for even your eye? No.
-Islam teaches JUSTICE, so people will be held accountable for their deeds. Rewarded for good and punished for evil.
-Those that believe in the oneness of God and do not ascribe partners to God will all ultimately go to heaven. Those that arrogantly denounce God or ascribed partners to God will dwell in hell forever.
-Everyone will be judged justly according to their means, status and knowledge so no one will be unfairly treated or be able to say I was unfairly judged. Everyone has a chance and God is not unjust.
-God does not need human sacrifice or any other sacrifice to forgive. He accepts forgiveness of those that are sincere and repentant.
-Everyone is born pure into this world but can be corrupted. Hence the need for guidance.

You believe:
--------------
-God committed suicide because of men's sins in order to 'save mankind'
-Everyone is born with original sin
-God came in human form as Jesus a man, while God is in three persons but still one
-You go to heaven if you accept the above and you go to hell if you reject the above
-Deeds don't matter but to be somewhat sound you should do good because Jesus was good and did good deeds hence being in 'spirit of good', you have the 'holy spirit dwelling in you and guiding you to good' but hey deeds still don't matter and you still go to heaven for worshipping Jesus/trintiy/a man-god.
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« Reply #349 on: July 03, 2013, 01:00:20 PM »

Loco: All those have context, but I am not going to waste time arguing with you again as you just mindlessly copy paste verses a million times even when it's been shown to you before their context (already been done before). After all you thought the old testament 'we', 'us' (the plural royal I) was the trinity. It just shows how much you know and how much you make up on the go to satisfy your emotional beliefs.

How are these verses out of context? 

Luke 23:39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” 

Matthew 19:25-26
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
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