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Author Topic: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall  (Read 49859 times)
tu_holmes
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« Reply #1900 on: February 19, 2013, 09:56:16 AM »

I'm waiting for all the facts.. See, I understand that we ask cops to do a tough job and most times they are doing the best they can, and that is better than what most people can do without the training. So we sit back on our couch and watch the news and see that a bunch of renegade cops shot up a truck for no apparent reason because they're out of control and we demand they be fired, hung, put in prison..

But having been in situation myself where what appeared to be a logical conclusion based on the available information I had at the time, turns out to be different than what it appears. Sometimes there are just a chain of unfortunate events that lead to bad endings. I gave a possible scenario to paint a picture of what may have been going through their minds at the time. Often times there isn't the luxury of wait and see. I would expect that the shooting be examined extensively and if it is found the officers responded in a manner that a reasonable person would not respond in, given the same set of circumstances and with the same information the officers had at the time, then certainly they should be held accountable. But I'm waiting to see what was going on.   



7 cops and 100+ rounds and they were little asian ladies.

Yeah... That's what we should wait for.
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Jack T. Cross
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« Reply #1901 on: February 19, 2013, 10:00:04 AM »

This is a no-win, 007.  You should back away from this one.  Some friendly advice, bro.
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« Reply #1902 on: February 19, 2013, 10:01:16 AM »

7 cops and 100+ rounds and they were little asian ladies.

Yeah... That's what we should wait for.


Again, you are an anti cop closed minded shill for the anti police crowd. Nothing they do is right so I don't expect you to ever get past the 7 cops and 100 plus rounds thing... luckily you won't be involved in reviewing and investigating it so that it has a chance to be fair and impartial.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #1903 on: February 19, 2013, 10:02:31 AM »

This is a no-win, 007.  You should back away from this one.  Some friendly advice, bro.


Yeah, I see that.. thanks I'll follow your advice
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Jack T. Cross
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« Reply #1904 on: February 19, 2013, 10:08:56 AM »

By the way, some props to 007.  He is on here to communicate, and to learn, just like the rest of us. 

(And even though he'd probably be the last person to admit it, this sets him way ahead of the average cop, without question.)
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tu_holmes
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« Reply #1905 on: February 19, 2013, 10:20:53 AM »

Again, you are an anti cop closed minded shill for the anti police crowd. Nothing they do is right so I don't expect you to ever get past the 7 cops and 100 plus rounds thing... luckily you won't be involved in reviewing and investigating it so that it has a chance to be fair and impartial.

That's not true... I expect cops to actually help people. Do some good.

IF they do, then I have, even on getbig, said good things about them.

I am anti-police STATE, not anti-police.

HUGE difference, but I don't expect you to see it.
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chaos
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« Reply #1906 on: February 19, 2013, 10:27:56 AM »

Shouldn't the cops at least ask them to step out of the vehicle before opening fire Huh
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Liar!!!!Filt!!!!
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« Reply #1907 on: February 19, 2013, 10:31:32 AM »

Shouldn't the cops at least ask them to step out of the vehicle before opening fire Huh

This begins to approach the reason why it is a no-win for anyone who would attempt to explain the behavior of the cops.
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Jack T. Cross
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« Reply #1908 on: February 19, 2013, 10:34:22 AM »

It becomes very difficult to defend the idea that the goal was in fact to preserve innocent life.
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« Reply #1909 on: February 19, 2013, 10:35:08 AM »

It becomes very difficult to defend the idea that the goal was in fact to preserve innocent life.

Exactly... It's completely unbelievable you could excuse this act.
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che
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« Reply #1910 on: February 19, 2013, 10:35:15 AM »

Again, you are an anti cop closed minded shill for the anti police crowd.
I'm not  ,

Shooting at two vehicles, with no warning, in separate incidents minutes apart .............

You can't defend that.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #1911 on: February 19, 2013, 10:41:44 AM »

Shouldn't the cops at least ask them to step out of the vehicle before opening fire Huh

damn it...here I go..

I think by the 100+ shots we can draw a pretty likely conclusion that at the moment they opened fire they believed Chris Dormer was in the truck. Why they believed it I can only speculate but it appears they did. Now in most cases cops don't just open fire like a scene out of a movie. Their first step usually is to give verbal commands to show their hands, toss the keys out, open the door, get out with your hands above your head..etc etc.. If those commands aren't followed then things escalate. Usually a repeat of the commands in a we mean business tone and so on. So yes, cops usually do ask bad guys to give up first... in this case, since I'm fairly certain they really thought they had Dormer, there likely was some attempt to get the vehicle to stop but considering Dormer

1. Said he wouldn't be taken alive
2. Was likely heavily armed
3. Had already shown he would shoot on sight
4. Had already killed cops and citizens

They didn't feel they had a lot of time or leeway to work with and responded with deadly force. Turns out, whatever reasons they thought they had that the vehicle contained Dorner was not correct. Innocent people were hurt, almost killed and in fact 1 was shot twice. Certainly a fucked up situation all around    
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #1912 on: February 19, 2013, 10:46:14 AM »

I'm not  ,

Shooting at two vehicles, with no warning, in separate incidents minutes apart .............

You can't defend that.

Chris Rock had a line in one of his routines...the punch line was something like..."I don't condone it.......but I understand it...."

When the circumstances and facts come out I may very well be on here saying they were so grossly incompetent they need to be fired. Until then I am willing to entertain the prospect that while it is fucked up, it may be somewhat understandable based on the totality of the circumstances. If you aren't, and have already concluded there is no excuse, that's certainly your prerogative.       
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tu_holmes
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« Reply #1913 on: February 19, 2013, 10:46:21 AM »

damn it...here I go..

I think by the 100+ shots we can draw a pretty likely conclusion that at the moment they opened fire they believed Chris Dormer was in the truck. Why they believed it I can only speculate but it appears they did. Now in most cases cops don't just open fire like a scene out of a movie. Their first step usually is to give verbal commands to show their hands, toss the keys out, open the door, get out with your hands above your head..etc etc.. If those commands aren't followed then things escalate. Usually a repeat of the commands in a we mean business tone and so on. So yes, cops usually do ask bad guys to give up first... in this case, since I'm fairly certain they really thought they had Dormer, there likely was some attempt to get the vehicle to stop but considering Dormer

1. Said he wouldn't be taken alive
2. Was likely heavily armed
3. Had already shown he would shoot on sight
4. Had already killed cops and citizens

They didn't feel they had a lot of time or leeway to work with and responded with deadly force. Turns out, whatever reasons they thought they had that the vehicle contained Dorner was not correct. Innocent people were hurt, almost killed and in fact 1 was shot twice. Certainly a fucked up situation all around     

So what you're saying is that a citizen should be able to shoot first and ask questions later?

Why not?

Apparently your average citizen can be just as accurate as the Police. IE completely wrong.

Effectively you have just said that it is perfectly acceptable under "heightened circumstances" to completely fuck up and shoot people.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #1914 on: February 19, 2013, 10:50:25 AM »

So what you're saying is that a citizen should be able to shoot first and ask questions later?

Why not?

Apparently your average citizen can be just as accurate as the Police. IE completely wrong.

Effectively you have just said that it is perfectly acceptable under "heightened circumstances" to completely fuck up and shoot people.


Average citizens have shot their sons in a closet thinking the son, who was playing a game on dad, was a burglar. Average citizens have shot their kids, in their car in their driveway, thinking it was someone trying to steal the car... I don't think the citizen was out to just kill anyone and their son got in the way. The information they had at the time led them to believe, there was a bad guy in the closet and in their car..unfortunate chains of events sometimes happen..
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« Reply #1915 on: February 19, 2013, 10:55:13 AM »

Average citizens have shot their sons in a closet thinking the son, who was playing a game on dad, was a burglar. Average citizens have shot their kids, in their car in their driveway, thinking it was someone trying to steal the car... I don't think the citizen was out to just kill anyone and their son got in the way. The information they had at the time led them to believe, there was a bad guy in the closet and in their car..unfortunate chains of events sometimes happen..
Roll Eyes
These  cops aren't average citizens.


How do you explain the second incident ?

Torrance, Calif. police cruiser "slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire ,no command, no instruction, no warning .''
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #1916 on: February 19, 2013, 11:00:34 AM »

Roll Eyes
These  cops aren't average citizens.


How do you explain the second incident ?

Torrance, Calif. police cruiser "slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire ,no command, no instruction, no warning .''

I don't have all the facts on that one. I just heard a short clip saying the officer that slammed into the pickup was responding to a shots fired call and saw the truck pulling away from officers and thought it was trying to evade after shooting at police. I have no idea if that is true or not. I really do want to hear what the facts are when the investigation is done. I am hoping the news does a good job of covering it and provides the diagrams, computer mock ups and chronological order of every second of the encounters.    

And if it shows the cops as keystone ish then let the chips fall where they may
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Jack T. Cross
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« Reply #1917 on: February 19, 2013, 11:30:29 AM »

So we have a situation where the police should want to apprehend Dorner to protect from further loss of life.  Not a situation where the police would be controlled by a desire to kill Dorner.  That's the way it is supposed to work, and that's what a person should rightly expect.

Looking at the evidence, however, it would appear that a desire to kill Dorner overcame all else--most importantly, the preservation of innocent life--and it appears there is no way around facing it.  Can anyone explain why this would happen?

So while it may be understandable, it is not acceptable.

Please recognize the irony, in Dorner being fired for allegedly making a false accusation against a supervisor, while the other such behavior has so far been passed upon. This is the message LAPD has chosen to send to the public.  This is why people are angry.
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« Reply #1918 on: February 19, 2013, 12:01:33 PM »

The irony is, in the end, dorner PROVED that there are bad cops , and prolly more than the average joe would think there are.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #1919 on: February 19, 2013, 12:12:23 PM »

So we have a situation where the police should want to apprehend Dorner to protect from further loss of life.  Not a situation where the police would be controlled by a desire to kill Dorner.  That's the way it is supposed to work, and that's what a person should rightly expect.

Looking at the evidence, however, it would appear that a desire to kill Dorner overcame all else--most importantly, the preservation of innocent life--and it appears there is no way around facing it.  Can anyone explain why this would happen?

So while it may be understandable, it is not acceptable.

Please recognize the irony, in Dorner being fired for allegedly making a false accusation against a supervisor, while the other such behavior has so far been passed upon. This is the message LAPD has chosen to send to the public.  This is why people are angry.

Jack, I hear ya, but while you say "it would appear that a desire to kill Dorner overcame all else" I would say a desire to survive what they expected to be a violent confrontation with a killer, was the catalyst.

There are many videos of perfectly innocent people getting shot at by soldiers at blockades because they had to make a quick decision when a vehicle wouldn't stop when approaching them. Because vehicles have been loaded in the past with explosives, and a normal person would stop when they are being confronted by armed personnel, the reasonable conclusion is there is something wrong and if they wait until that vehicle is upon them, they, and those around them could be dead. So they open up after warnings are given. For whatever reason, sometimes it turns out to be a family on the way to market. Sometimes though, it turns out to be a explosive laden vehicle driven by a lunatic. Sometimes they wait too long to decide and then we read about it in the papers.

While I don't condone that, I can certainly understand how it can happen.

As far as Dormer proving his case, we are aren't seeing eye to eye on that. I've had a hand in firing an employee who was a liar and dangerous. He will tell you to this day it was a conspiracy and he was a good cop just trying to do the right thing. He's wrong, he was and is a psycho and a danger to himself and others, not to mention a prolific liar. If every employee who was thought he or she was wrongfully terminated went on a killing spree, and people cheered them on.. it's be pretty fucked up..   
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« Reply #1920 on: February 19, 2013, 12:13:00 PM »

The irony is, in the end, dorner PROVED that there are bad cops , and prolly more than the average joe would think there are.

No, he didnt.. hope this helps. I don't think there are too many people who don't believe there are bad cops. What he proved was he was psycho and they were right in getting him off the force.
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« Reply #1921 on: February 19, 2013, 12:43:46 PM »

No, he didnt.. hope this helps. I don't think there are too many people who don't believe there are bad cops. What he proved was he was psycho and they were right in getting him off the force.

He actually proved both.

I hope THIS helps.
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Jack T. Cross
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« Reply #1922 on: February 19, 2013, 01:33:30 PM »

Jack, I hear ya, but while you say "it would appear that a desire to kill Dorner overcame all else" I would say a desire to survive what they expected to be a violent confrontation with a killer, was the catalyst.

There are many videos of perfectly innocent people getting shot at by soldiers at blockades because they had to make a quick decision when a vehicle wouldn't stop when approaching them. Because vehicles have been loaded in the past with explosives, and a normal person would stop when they are being confronted by armed personnel, the reasonable conclusion is there is something wrong and if they wait until that vehicle is upon them, they, and those around them could be dead. So they open up after warnings are given. For whatever reason, sometimes it turns out to be a family on the way to market. Sometimes though, it turns out to be a explosive laden vehicle driven by a lunatic. Sometimes they wait too long to decide and then we read about it in the papers.

While I don't condone that, I can certainly understand how it can happen.

As far as Dormer proving his case, we are aren't seeing eye to eye on that. I've had a hand in firing an employee who was a liar and dangerous. He will tell you to this day it was a conspiracy and he was a good cop just trying to do the right thing. He's wrong, he was and is a psycho and a danger to himself and others, not to mention a prolific liar. If every employee who was thought he or she was wrongfully terminated went on a killing spree, and people cheered them on.. it's be pretty fucked up..   

The fact that you'd have to draw a comparison between war zones elsewhere and a residential street in America should tell you something, 007.

We have a situation where the police placed themselves in a position where--if Dorner were to appear--they would be apparently unable to secure the situation without opening fire as a first step. 

Do you see where this is going?
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« Reply #1923 on: February 19, 2013, 01:36:32 PM »

The fact that you'd have to draw a comparison between war zones elsewhere and a residential street in America should tell you something, 007.

We have a situation where the police placed themselves in a position where--if Dorner were to appear--they would be apparently unable to secure the situation without opening fire as a first step. 

Do you see where this is going?

Dorner also made it quite clear in his ram ling lunatic diatribe that he wasn't going to surrender without a fight.  How should a man like that be approached?
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« Reply #1924 on: February 19, 2013, 01:41:58 PM »

Dorner also made it quite clear in his ram ling lunatic diatribe that he wasn't going to surrender without a fight.  How should a man like that be approached?

Very fucking carefully, but you see him, you fucking put the gun to his head and if he pulls any shit, you wax him.

You don't shoot up cars that may look alike... Even though it has been determined that he had burned his truck a day or two before.
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