Author Topic: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall  (Read 181430 times)

viking1

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1850 on: February 16, 2013, 10:43:46 AM »
Oh Snap!!!!

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1851 on: February 16, 2013, 11:02:31 AM »
\

How do you enforce a 4 to 5 mile perimeter? can you imagine the manpower to create a 5 mile perimeter?

police knew where the media trucks were. 

the media obeys orders.  moved em on down the road.

Agnostic007

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1852 on: February 16, 2013, 11:27:58 AM »
police knew where the media trucks were. 

the media obeys orders.  moved em on down the road.

Typically in a swat/volatile situation, media show up and try and get as close to possible to get their footage, disregarding safety often times. To address this, when there is a barricaded subject like this, areas are designated for the Command Post as well as a media area. The usual criteria we use is it needs to be a place that is out of the inner and outer perimeter and not in direct line of sight for safety reasons. It is a give and take. If we entirely push them so far away they feel they are being taken out of play then they stop cooperating with our designated areas and we have freelancing. So we work with the media and try to get them as close as possible, without causing interference with us, and out of danger for them. It wouldn't be in our best interest to push them 4 miles down the road, and they likely wouldn't stand for it. Plus, there were news helicopters in the air filming so if it were an attempt to cover something up, they sure wasted their time. I looked for links that addressed how the media was handled on the ground and couldn't find any specifically addressing the 4 miles down the road issue. I'd like to read it if you have one.   

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1853 on: February 16, 2013, 11:29:54 AM »
Typically in a swat/volatile situation, media show up and try and get as close to possible to get their footage, disregarding safety often times. To address this, when there is a barricaded subject like this, areas are designated for the Command Post as well as a media area. The usual criteria we use is it needs to be a place that is out of the inner and outer perimeter and not in direct line of sight for safety reasons. It is a give and take. If we entirely push them so far away they feel they are being taken out of play then they stop cooperating with our designated areas and we have freelancing. So we work with the media and try to get them as close as possible, without causing interference with us, and out of danger for them. It wouldn't be in our best interest to push them 4 miles down the road, and they likely wouldn't stand for it. Plus, there were news helicopters in the air filming so if it were an attempt to cover something up, they sure wasted their time. I looked for links that addressed how the media was handled on the ground and couldn't find any specifically addressing the 4 miles down the road issue. I'd like to read it if you have one.   

ok.  i'll look.  i'm sure many people were watching the news at the time and remember when they were pushed back.  the fire came about 30 min after.

Agnostic007

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1854 on: February 16, 2013, 11:32:56 AM »
ok.  i'll look.  i'm sure many people were watching the news at the time and remember when they were pushed back.  the fire came about 30 min after.
I don't doubt for a minute they were pushed back.. if they are filming the cabin, they are too close. It was an active shoot situation. I just fail to see the police logic in moving them 4 miles down the road. 

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1855 on: February 16, 2013, 11:37:36 AM »
I don't doubt for a minute they were pushed back.. if they are filming the cabin, they are too close. It was an active shoot situation.

they were being very cautious not to show any of the ativity and had no cabin shot.  however, at that time, they lost all live feeds, all helicopters were sent out, etc.

they were upset at the time.  Alex jones/prison planet did an immediate piece and predicted a death by fire a few minutes later.  And that's what happened.

He's a nut on many things, but he nailed this one... media were told to get out, and the dude was burned.  Not saying he wasn't a piece of shit worthy of it, but there's certainly a pattern of "you media have been allowed here all day... now we're kicking you out" followed by a huge "accidental" fire.

Palpatine Q

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1856 on: February 16, 2013, 11:48:44 AM »
they were being very cautious not to show any of the ativity and had no cabin shot.  however, at that time, they lost all live feeds, all helicopters were sent out, etc.

they were upset at the time.  Alex jones/prison planet did an immediate piece and predicted a death by fire a few minutes later.  And that's what happened.

He's a nut on many things, but he nailed this one... media were told to get out, and the dude was burned.  Not saying he wasn't a piece of shit worthy of it, but there's certainly a pattern of "you media have been allowed here all day... now we're kicking you out" followed by a huge "accidental" fire.


It was death by self infilcted gunshot, but don't let that stop you.


LOLOL....Rob is funny when he gets behind something, there's no dissuading him.

we have covered this already but apparently you won't acknowledge any info but your own.

The police FREELY and casually described what they are doing, step by step, with comfirmation...over the scanners, knowing full well thousands listen to them.  there were still long shots of the fire , how the fuck do you hide a fire.....LOLOL.

you act as if they were trying to hide what they were doing....they were completely up front about it...and are to this day.

JUst like i said about the news conference...."we used CS gas after conventional gas failed, a fire ensued, no we didn't intentionally burn the cabin down....next question"

now it turns out he shot himself....so he couldn't flee the burning cabin because he was dead....explain how that's the polices fault, or that they can predict the future and knew dumbass was going to kill himself and his corpse burned.

che

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1857 on: February 16, 2013, 11:56:30 AM »

It was death by self infilcted gunshot, but don't let that stop you.


LOLOL....Rob is funny when he gets behind something, there's no dissuading him.

we have covered this already but apparently you won't acknowledge any info but your own.

The police FREELY and casually described what they are doing, step by step, with comfirmation...over the scanners, knowing full well thousands listen to them.  there were still long shots of the fire , how the fuck do you hide a fire.....LOLOL.

you act as if they were trying to hide what they were doing....they were completely up front about it...and are to this day.

JUst like i said about the news conference...."we used CS gas after conventional gas failed, a fire ensued, no we didn't intentionally burn the cabin down....next question"

now it turns out he shot himself....so he couldn't flee the burning cabin because he was dead....explain how that's the polices fault, or that they can predict the future and knew dumbass was going to kill himself and his corpse burned.

 Maybe 240 knows something that nobody  else knows .

Obvious Gimmick

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1858 on: February 16, 2013, 11:58:15 AM »
Hahaha......shot himself like the bitch he was  ;)

Agnostic007

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1859 on: February 16, 2013, 11:59:04 AM »
they were being very cautious not to show any of the ativity and had no cabin shot.  however, at that time, they lost all live feeds, all helicopters were sent out, etc.

they were upset at the time.  Alex jones/prison planet did an immediate piece and predicted a death by fire a few minutes later.  And that's what happened.

He's a nut on many things, but he nailed this one... media were told to get out, and the dude was burned.  Not saying he wasn't a piece of shit worthy of it, but there's certainly a pattern of "you media have been allowed here all day... now we're kicking you out" followed by a huge "accidental" fire.

Again, having been at barricaded/armed situations more than a couple dozen times there should be no media allowed in the inner or inside the outer perimeter at anytime once the perimeters are established. We operate on the assumption the subject can start shooting at any time so you won't find reporters sitting on cop car hoods chatting it up with the officers in the perimeter. You shouldn't HAVE to "kick" media out when the shit hits the fan, they should have already been out.

Police have to assume bad guys watch TV and the local live news. Can you picture starting an assault on a residence and everything you are doing is being broadcast on live TV via the news copter? Not a very safe situation.

Now, I'll give you my personal opinion of what happened just based on the same news everyone else has.  I could be way off base but at the moment, this may have been what happened..

a killer who has said he would not be taken alive and has recently killed cops and civilians is inside a cabin. he has fired shots at officers and it's reasonable to assume this isnt going to end well. They tried making contact and likely had a negotiator on scene with the intention of trying to go the easy way. The hard way has ended up with cops getting killed in the past. Dynamic entry, while cool to watch in the movies, still gives the bad guy the advantage of knowing you have to come through a door. And this bad guy was a guy familiar with dynamic entry. Likely negotiating wasn't going anywhere if he even responded at all other than gunfire. Next was the OC gas. This didn't work. Night time was coming and with darkness comes loss of visibility and increased the danger for the cops on the inner perimeter. A plan (there is ALWAYS a plan ) was created in which CS gas would be inserted in several windows at once. Turns out 7 were fired. Usually when these are deployed there are commands given over a P.A. system to come out with hands empty and up in the air. I'm guessing they knew there was a good chance the cabin would catch fire. I'm also guessing their hope was this would be the thing that forces Dormer out. If he came out with hands empty and in the air (He should know the drill) then he would be given commands and eventually taken into custody. If he came out armed, he would be shot. However when the CS was deployed, Dormer chose to kill himself, which underscores the fact he wasn't going to be taken alive either way.

If it went down that way, which makes sense to me from a tactical, strategical and logical standpoint, I really have no problem with it.      

  

Jadeveon Clowney

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1860 on: February 16, 2013, 12:03:16 PM »
Again, having been at barricaded/armed situations more than a couple dozen times there should be no media allowed in the inner or inside the outer perimeter at anytime once the perimeters are established. We operate on the assumption the subject can start shooting at any time so you won't find reporters sitting on cop car hoods chatting it up with the officers in the perimeter. You shouldn't HAVE to "kick" media out when the shit hits the fan, they should have already been out.

Police have to assume bad guys watch TV and the local live news. Can you picture starting an assault on a residence and everything you are doing is being broadcast on live TV via the news copter? Not a very safe situation.

Now, I'll give you my personal opinion of what happened just based on the same news everyone else has.  I could be way off base but at the moment, this may have been what happened..

a killer who has said he would not be taken alive and has recently killed cops and civilians is inside a cabin. he has fired shots at officers and it's reasonable to assume this isnt going to end well. They tried making contact and likely had a negotiator on scene with the intention of trying to go the easy way. The hard way has ended up with cops getting killed in the past. Dynamic entry, while cool to watch in the movies, still gives the bad guy the advantage of knowing you have to come through a door. And this bad guy was a guy familiar with dynamic entry. Likely negotiating wasn't going anywhere if he even responded at all other than gunfire. Next was the OC gas. This didn't work. Night time was coming and with darkness comes loss of visibility and increased the danger for the cops on the inner perimeter. A plan (there is ALWAYS a plan ) was created in which CS gas would be inserted in several windows at once. Turns out 7 were fired. Usually when these are deployed there are commands given over a P.A. system to come out with hands empty and up in the air. I'm guessing they knew there was a good chance the cabin would catch fire. I'm also guessing their hope was this would be the thing that forces Dormer out. If he came out with hands empty and in the air (He should know the drill) then he would be given commands and eventually taken into custody. If he came out armed, he would be shot. However when the CS was deployed, Dormer chose to kill himself, which underscores the fact he wasn't going to be taken alive either way.

If it went down that way, which makes sense to me from a tactical, strategical and logical standpoint, I really have no problem with it.      

  

good analysis, benchmstr

Palpatine Q

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1861 on: February 16, 2013, 12:05:21 PM »
Again, having been at barricaded/armed situations more than a couple dozen times there should be no media allowed in the inner or inside the outer perimeter at anytime once the perimeters are established. We operate on the assumption the subject can start shooting at any time so you won't find reporters sitting on cop car hoods chatting it up with the officers in the perimeter. You shouldn't HAVE to "kick" media out when the shit hits the fan, they should have already been out.

Police have to assume bad guys watch TV and the local live news. Can you picture starting an assault on a residence and everything you are doing is being broadcast on live TV via the news copter? Not a very safe situation.

Now, I'll give you my personal opinion of what happened just based on the same news everyone else has.  I could be way off base but at the moment, this may have been what happened..

a killer who has said he would not be taken alive and has recently killed cops and civilians is inside a cabin. he has fired shots at officers and it's reasonable to assume this isnt going to end well. They tried making contact and likely had a negotiator on scene with the intention of trying to go the easy way. The hard way has ended up with cops getting killed in the past. Dynamic entry, while cool to watch in the movies, still gives the bad guy the advantage of knowing you have to come through a door. And this bad guy was a guy familiar with dynamic entry. Likely negotiating wasn't going anywhere if he even responded at all other than gunfire. Next was the OC gas. This didn't work. Night time was coming and with darkness comes loss of visibility and increased the danger for the cops on the inner perimeter. A plan (there is ALWAYS a plan ) was created in which CS gas would be inserted in several windows at once. Turns out 7 were fired. Usually when these are deployed there are commands given over a P.A. system to come out with hands empty and up in the air. I'm guessing they knew there was a good chance the cabin would catch fire. I'm also guessing their hope was this would be the thing that forces Dormer out. If he came out with hands empty and in the air (He should know the drill) then he would be given commands and eventually taken into custody. If he came out armed, he would be shot. However when the CS was deployed, Dormer chose to kill himself, which underscores the fact he wasn't going to be taken alive either way.

If it went down that way, which makes sense to me from a tactical, strategical and logical standpoint, I really have no problem with it.      

  

Another completely rational and unbiased post....which will be rebuked with "They KNEW !!!!! They are murderers!!!! It says BURN on the audiotape !!!!!!!.......aaaaaarrrggh!!!"

 ;D ;D

Agnostic007

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1862 on: February 16, 2013, 12:13:16 PM »
Yeah Groink, I'm certain the cops were pissed at Dormer, and I'm certain they were not at all upset to see the flames. I also think they were hoping he would come out armed, but I believe had he come out empty handed we'd be waiting for his arraignment. I wish, on a professional level they would have kept the remarks to themselves that wasn't related to the task, but I can understand it. I understood the sentiment of the officers who commented "Burn baby Burn" when a local disco burned up, but I also agreed with the days off they got for being unprofessional.

It does bother me probably more than it should that some people are anti police no matter what. Not saying everyone here that commented against the LAPD or Sheriff Dept are "anti cop" but you know the ones I mean. While I think it is a small percentage of the public, it still disappoints me. Some of them have real reasons, real life experiences that were brought on by some ass hole in a police uniform.  I think the police in general are mostly stand up individuals who want to make a difference and help people. But we still have a ways to go in policing our own and gaining more of the publics trust.   

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1863 on: February 16, 2013, 01:49:38 PM »
It was death by self infilcted gunshot, but don't let that stop you.

Um, he was in a basement underneath a cabin fire.  I don't know that I can assign a lot of "choice" in that matter? 

The police weren't in a 'chatty' mood... they were shooting at cars blindly.  Dorner could have come out wtih his hands up, and we already know he would have been executed on the spot.  They tried to execute him twice without any warning before (ended up getting the wrong car).

Jadeveon Clowney

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1864 on: February 16, 2013, 02:01:47 PM »
Um, he was in a basement underneath a cabin fire.  I don't know that I can assign a lot of "choice" in that matter? 

The police weren't in a 'chatty' mood... they were shooting at cars blindly.  Dorner could have come out wtih his hands up, and we already know he would have been executed on the spot.  They tried to execute him twice without any warning before (ended up getting the wrong car).

240 trying to spice things up.  was amusing 10 years ago. now it's just sad... like 240's hairline.

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1865 on: February 16, 2013, 02:14:27 PM »
Um, he was in a basement underneath a cabin fire.  I don't know that I can assign a lot of "choice" in that matter? 

The police weren't in a 'chatty' mood... they were shooting at cars blindly.  Dorner could have come out wtih his hands up, and we already know he would have been executed on the spot.  They tried to execute him twice without any warning before (ended up getting the wrong car).


LOL....this whole thing is his choice.


This somehow evades you.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1866 on: February 16, 2013, 03:24:31 PM »
Does anyone know how the report came about, saying that Dorner was generating continual gunfire?

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1867 on: February 16, 2013, 03:30:16 PM »
Does anyone know how the report came about, saying that Dorner was generating continual gunfire?


LOL....what's next, ,you want proof he actually had a gun?

All he has to do is POINT a gun at a cop, and they are LEGALLY allowed to shoot him 700 times if they want.

You like to ask a lot of open ended questions  what's your point...and what are you trying to say?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1868 on: February 16, 2013, 03:31:59 PM »

LOL....what's next, ,you want proof he actually had a gun?

All he has to do is POINT a gun at a cop, and they are LEGALLY allowed to shoot him 700 times if they want.

You like to ask a lot of open ended questions  what's your point...and what are you trying to say?

Simple question, Mr. Roid Rage. 

Do you know the answer, or don't you?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1869 on: February 16, 2013, 03:33:46 PM »
You were one of the people saying it, by the way.

Where did you get the information?  That's all I'm asking.  Calm the fuck down.

BILL ANVIL

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1870 on: February 16, 2013, 03:34:28 PM »
judge jury executioner

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1871 on: February 16, 2013, 03:34:45 PM »
I'm trying to learn, just like everyone else.

Agnostic007

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1872 on: February 17, 2013, 06:41:29 AM »
Um, he was in a basement underneath a cabin fire.  I don't know that I can assign a lot of "choice" in that matter?  

The police weren't in a 'chatty' mood... they were shooting at cars blindly.  Dorner could have come out wtih his hands up, and we already know he would have been executed on the spot.  They tried to execute him twice without any warning before (ended up getting the wrong car).

Police were shooting at cars blindly.. sounds pretty messed up ...but were they?

And "we" don't know shit. You conclude he would have been excecuted on the spot, however, time and time again, when barricaded suspects come out with their hands up, they are taken into custody.

As far as warning... why don't we wait until the facts come out?  What if... once the facts are known about the delivery ladies it went down something like this;

5 am, dark.... residential street. You know, because you have run into it before,  that in the dark, gray, blue, silver on a vehicle look about the same. Hell, you know from experience descriptions are put out all the time on a particular color only to find out it was a light blue vehicle instead of a silver one.

So, it's dark out, residential street. You are guarding a house on the hit list of a cop killing psycho. A vehicle matching the description approaches driving in an erratic manner. Slow, weaving, not the norm. As the vehicle approaches you see it matches the description pretty damn close. You or your partner turn on your overhead lights and give orders to stop over the PA. You can't see inside and you don't know it's two women. The driver, seeing the cops, freaks, doesn't know what to do, but doesn't stop. Lets say in a panic she accelerates. Based on the information you have you have to make a decision pretty damn quick as the vehicle is coming your way fast. So you and your partner blast the hell out of it, it passes by you continue blasting the hell out of it. When it does come to a stop you discover it's two females. You were given a tough task, put in a tough situation and made a decision to the best of your ability based on the information at that very moment. You don't have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight.

Hell no I don't know if any of that happened. But I don't think you know none of it did. So why don't we wait until all the facts come out before we decide cops are blindly shooting at cars?  

    

BILL ANVIL

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1873 on: February 17, 2013, 09:17:09 AM »
not having 20 20 hindsight doesn't justify that. mistakes happen yes but thats a HUGE fuckup. death squad.

che

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Re: Chris Dorner - Southern California - rise and fall
« Reply #1874 on: February 17, 2013, 09:18:58 AM »
Police were shooting at cars blindly.. sounds pretty messed up ...but were they?

Yes , they were .