Author Topic: Cowardly Cops  (Read 12192 times)

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #175 on: March 26, 2013, 02:53:32 PM »
I don't know if given the terrain it was even possible to be positioned so that positive ID could be made before it would be too late.

Please go into this statement a bit more, 007, especially the part in bold.

Skip8282

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #176 on: March 26, 2013, 04:58:15 PM »
Jack I don't know. I don't know if given the terrain it was even possible to be positioned so that positive ID could be made before it would be too late. In a perfect setting they would be set up to where there were bright lights, identification of the occupant could be made well in advance. At night, if windows were tinted, that would make it very difficult. I am just making a lot of assumptions here but it might end up being that identification without the occupant leaving the vehicle would not be likely. Another assumption I'm making is it might be possible that the vehicle they shot was for whatever reason, operating in a way that might have added weight to their concern that it was the bad guy. It might be explained that a vehicle matching the description ( I know, it was the wrong make and color but at night, how different would they look?) was ignoring orders to stop. In most cases, when people are ordered to stop by police they stop. However, sometimes it's the bad guy and they don't want to stop. In rare occasions it's people who are completely Innocent, yet panic or get confused. Most times this end with no one getting shot at. In this particular case maybe the officers considered the situation, and with seconds to decide, decided wrongly that the vehicle contained a guy with an automatic weapon with the intent to kill them and others.

I am offering the assumptions because you are asking me, even though I don't have the information. So I'm offering possibilities. But as I said in the past, while I can understand in certain situations making the wrong decision based on the information they had at the time, because their decision was wrong, there should be consequences for their actions. I don't think they were out to kill innocent people. I don't think they take life any less seriously than you or I. I think they had a tough assignment and made the wrong decision under sucky conditions that they may or may not have had the choice to create.             



And what should those consequences be?  And what factors should weigh in?  And would those same factors be applied to citizens?

Agnostic007

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #177 on: March 27, 2013, 05:03:50 AM »
Please go into this statement a bit more, 007, especially the part in bold.

Jack, an example of too late would be like this;

A cop stops a vehicle with four 20 something's on a dark street. As the cop starts to approach the drivers door opens and a male gets out dressed in mostly red with a black trench coat and starts walking towards the cop quickly. His right hand is behind his back. The officer tells the driver to stop but the driver keeps walking quickly towards the officer. Officer draws his weapon, backing up, yelling for the male to stop, put his hands up, etc etc. Passenger door opens and a couple people get out, one of them saying "Cap that pig!" Cops at the back of his car now, male is quickly approaching. Lot of movement from the car as the passengers are starting to come back towards the cop on the passenger side. Now, if you wait until you actually see a gun, you're dead. But what if he only has a cell phone and is just crazy or high? or nothing in his hand? What if he brings that hand around quickly? Will you wait until you actually identify a weapon before shooting?

Obviously the above scenario is an extreme, but the point is, there is limited time to make a decision before you may be shot. If the officer shoots the guy and he doesn't have a weapon, there would be a small group of people who would say the cop murdered the man for no reason. I would argue what he did at that moment given all the circumstance, was reasonable.  

In the case of the officers at the house, again, I don't know all the facts, I'm playing what if for the sake of the conversation.. If the vehicle wasn't responding in a manner that would be conducive to innocent people for whatever reason, panic or confusion and the officers believed it was the vehicle that contained the shooter, action beats reaction every time and they may have been concerned if they didn't act then, at any moment the bad guy could open up on them. By then it might be too late.  In my what if, I'm making assumptions. Maybe the truck didn't do anything out of the ordinary and they clearly over reacted. Even in my what if, I don't make a case for justifying the shots, at best I am introducing possible contributing factors as to how it might happen.        

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #178 on: March 27, 2013, 08:39:32 AM »
Jack, an example of too late would be like this;

A cop stops a vehicle with four 20 something's on a dark street. As the cop starts to approach the drivers door opens and a male gets out dressed in mostly red with a black trench coat and starts walking towards the cop quickly. His right hand is behind his back. The officer tells the driver to stop but the driver keeps walking quickly towards the officer. Officer draws his weapon, backing up, yelling for the male to stop, put his hands up, etc etc. Passenger door opens and a couple people get out, one of them saying "Cap that pig!" Cops at the back of his car now, male is quickly approaching. Lot of movement from the car as the passengers are starting to come back towards the cop on the passenger side. Now, if you wait until you actually see a gun, you're dead. But what if he only has a cell phone and is just crazy or high? or nothing in his hand? What if he brings that hand around quickly? Will you wait until you actually identify a weapon before shooting?

Obviously the above scenario is an extreme, but the point is, there is limited time to make a decision before you may be shot. If the officer shoots the guy and he doesn't have a weapon, there would be a small group of people who would say the cop murdered the man for no reason. I would argue what he did at that moment given all the circumstance, was reasonable. 

In the case of the officers at the house, again, I don't know all the facts, I'm playing what if for the sake of the conversation.. If the vehicle wasn't responding in a manner that would be conducive to innocent people for whatever reason, panic or confusion and the officers believed it was the vehicle that contained the shooter, action beats reaction every time and they may have been concerned if they didn't act then, at any moment the bad guy could open up on them. By then it might be too late.  In my what if, I'm making assumptions. Maybe the truck didn't do anything out of the ordinary and they clearly over reacted. Even in my what if, I don't make a case for justifying the shots, at best I am introducing possible contributing factors as to how it might happen.       

In that scenerio would you not draw your weapon and let the person know you were going to shoot them in some way?

Also, there's a huge difference between that and what happened with this vehicle... There was no imminent threat to anyone's lives in that scenario... They simply shot first and asked questions later.

Of course, your scenario is an extreme, but this was not an extreme scenario where this happened.

Do you disagree?

You will most likely say that these "heightened circumstances" were the issue, but really, you're just saying it's ok to shoot people without validating who they are.

That is defeating our entire system of law by eliminating the courts.

Agnostic007

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #179 on: March 27, 2013, 12:41:57 PM »
In that scenerio would you not draw your weapon and let the person know you were going to shoot them in some way?

Also, there's a huge difference between that and what happened with this vehicle... There was no imminent threat to anyone's lives in that scenario... They simply shot first and asked questions later.

Of course, your scenario is an extreme, but this was not an extreme scenario where this happened.

Do you disagree?

You will most likely say that these "heightened circumstances" were the issue, but really, you're just saying it's ok to shoot people without validating who they are.

That is defeating our entire system of law by eliminating the courts.  


In the scenario, the officer did draw his weapon.

Again, I don't have the details of what happened in front of the house. I can't speak to how "huge" a difference there was though there will be differences.

It appears you are answering for me in the rest of the post so there is no need for me to give my own answer.

Agnostic007

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #180 on: March 27, 2013, 12:55:58 PM »


And what should those consequences be?  And what factors should weigh in?  And would those same factors be applied to citizens?

Skip, it would all depend on the totality of the circumstances.

Usually, a "reasonableness" standard is used. Would a reasonable person, in those same set of circumstances, without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight react the same way. Below is an article that goes into more detail.

The True Legal Standard
In 1989, the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) handed down one of the landmark decisions regarding an officer’s use of force. The case was Graham v. Connor (490 U.S. 386). This decision created a national standard that is still in place today. In its decision, the SCOTUS made it clear that an officer’s use of force on a free citizen is to be evaluated as a seizure of the person under the Fourth Amendment. Indeed, the SCOTUS said in its holding:

All claims that law enforcement officials have used excessive force - deadly or not - in the course of an arrest, investigatory stop, or other "seizure" of a free citizen are properly analyzed under the Fourth Amendment's "objective reasonableness" standard, rather than under a substantive due process standard.

What is important to the reader for this article is the phrase “objective reasonableness.” How did the SCOTUS come to this term? Perhaps a quick review of the Fourth Amendment can shed some light. The Fourth Amendment protects the people against unreasonable searches and seizures by the government and its agents. Therefore it would logically follow that officers must act reasonably when seizing people.

Graham set forth several evaluation guidelines and factors to be taken into consideration when evaluating an officer’s use of force. These evaluation guidelines include one overarching direction to anybody who chooses to opine about an officer’s force response:

The calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgments - in circumstances that are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving - about the amount of force that is necessary in a particular situation.

Once the person that chooses to render his/her opinion understands this overarching direction, they also need to be aware of these guidelines while making their determination of the reasonableness of the officer’s force response:

1.) Judged through the perspective of a reasonable officer
     a. Officer with same or similar training and experience
     b. Facing similar circumstances
     c. Act the same way or use similar judgment
2.) Based on the totality of the facts known to the officer at the time the force was applied
     a. No matter how compelling the evidence is to be found later
     b. No hindsight evaluation
3.) Based on the facts known to the officer without regard to the underlying intent or motivation
4.) Based on the knowledge the officer acted properly under established law at the time


tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #181 on: March 27, 2013, 01:46:04 PM »
In the scenario, the officer did draw his weapon.

Again, I don't have the details of what happened in front of the house. I can't speak to how "huge" a difference there was though there will be differences.

It appears you are answering for me in the rest of the post so there is no need for me to give my own answer.

You have no answer anyway... You will do what you always do and make excuses.

You have done so in every post.

To you, there must always be an extenuating circumstance, but the onus is almost never on the cop to you... You make excuses for everything.

You are a piece of work.

Agnostic007

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #182 on: March 27, 2013, 02:05:00 PM »
You have no answer anyway... You will do what you always do and make excuses.

You have done so in every post.

To you, there must always be an extenuating circumstance, but the onus is almost never on the cop to you... You make excuses for everything.

You are a piece of work.

Tu, why so angry? Seriously? You know I have said in the past a cop screwed up on several posts..

whork

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #183 on: March 27, 2013, 02:49:16 PM »
Tu, why so angry? Seriously? You know I have said in the past a cop screwed up on several posts..

Did the cops screw up here?

24KT

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #184 on: March 27, 2013, 03:30:52 PM »
Did the cops screw up here?

***bump for an answer***
w

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #185 on: March 27, 2013, 03:44:21 PM »
Tu, why so angry? Seriously? You know I have said in the past a cop screwed up on several posts..

You'll have to forgive me for not noticing when you have done so.

Skip8282

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #186 on: March 27, 2013, 04:35:29 PM »
Skip, it would all depend on the totality of the circumstances.

Usually, a "reasonableness" standard is used. Would a reasonable person, in those same set of circumstances, without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight react the same way. Below is an article that goes into more detail.








Yeah...this is pretty much saying - to me - the cops are gonna walk.



Here's some reasonable predictions from a reasonable person:

1.  ALL of the cops will swear the driving was abnormal, odd, or whatever.  Of course it wasn't normal...they were delivering.  ::)  And if it turns out they saw a bunch of armed men, that probably would have furthered the abnormal, odd, or whatever driving.

2.  ALL of the cops will claim they feared for their lives.

3.  ALL of the cops will claim that they 'reasonably' thought Dorner was in the car.

4.  ALL 3rd party cops examining the case will side with the lapd.

5.  The DA will cover and say something to the effect that their actions do not rise to criminal intent (though you same cops will gladly lock up someone else for life for the EXACT same thing).

6.  The people of LA will sit back, apathetic and accepting.




Maybe not, but I think that scenario is probably the most honest guestimate of what will play out.

whork

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #187 on: March 27, 2013, 04:55:05 PM »



Yeah...this is pretty much saying - to me - the cops are gonna walk.



Here's some reasonable predictions from a reasonable person:

1.  ALL of the cops will swear the driving was abnormal, odd, or whatever.  Of course it wasn't normal...they were delivering.  ::)  And if it turns out they saw a bunch of armed men, that probably would have furthered the abnormal, odd, or whatever driving.

2.  ALL of the cops will claim they feared for their lives.

3.  ALL of the cops will claim that they 'reasonably' thought Dorner was in the car.

4.  ALL 3rd party cops examining the case will side with the lapd.

5.  The DA will cover and say something to the effect that their actions do not rise to criminal intent (though you same cops will gladly lock up someone else for life for the EXACT same thing).

6.  The people of LA will sit back, apathetic and accepting.




Maybe not, but I think that scenario is probably the most honest guestimate of what will play out.

We usually disagree but in this thread you are dead on.

Agnostic007

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #188 on: March 28, 2013, 05:32:36 AM »
Did the cops screw up here?

Yes, the fact was they shot multiple times at a vehicle that had nothing to do with the psycho killer and injured and almost killed two innocent people. I'd call that a screw up

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #189 on: March 28, 2013, 10:44:58 AM »
Yes, the fact was they shot multiple times at a vehicle that had nothing to do with the psycho killer and injured and almost killed two innocent people. I'd call that a screw up

So what should the punishment be for this screw up?

Agnostic007

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #190 on: March 28, 2013, 03:37:29 PM »
So what should the punishment be for this screw up?


what do you think it should be?

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #191 on: March 28, 2013, 03:40:50 PM »
what do you think it should be?

I think they should lose their jobs for being trigger happy.

I also believe they should be charged with a crime... Probably Assault with a firearm.

http://www.shouselaw.com/assault-firearm.html

Now will you answer the question? I asked you first after all.

Agnostic007

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #192 on: March 28, 2013, 03:57:51 PM »
I think they should lose their jobs for being trigger happy.

I also believe they should be charged with a crime... Probably Assault with a firearm.

http://www.shouselaw.com/assault-firearm.html

Now will you answer the question? I asked you first after all.

Fair enough.... I think I would want to review all the evidence and facts in the investigation before deciding to what extent the  consequences would be. 

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #193 on: March 28, 2013, 05:14:37 PM »
Fair enough.... I think I would want to review all the evidence and facts in the investigation before deciding to what extent the  consequences would be. 

So you have no answer.

Right.

blacken700

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #194 on: March 28, 2013, 05:29:57 PM »
Fair enough.... I think I would want to review all the evidence and facts in the investigation before deciding to what extent the  consequences would be. 


hey this is getbig,just jump to conclusions like everyone else  :D

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #195 on: March 28, 2013, 05:31:20 PM »

hey this is getbig,just jump to conclusions like everyone else  :D

The investigation has been done already... 7 dudes shot up a truck.

If that was you and 6 of your buds, no excuse would be enough, you'd be charged with a crime.

PERIOD

You're an idiot if you think otherwise.


blacken700

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #196 on: March 28, 2013, 05:35:20 PM »
The investigation has been done already... 7 dudes shot up a truck.

If that was you and 6 of your buds, no excuse would be enough, you'd be charged with a crime.

PERIOD

You're an idiot if you think otherwise.




so what did the investigation say ?

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #197 on: March 28, 2013, 05:35:45 PM »

so what did the investigation say ?

They have not released any information about it.

Does that seem ok to you?

blacken700

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #198 on: March 28, 2013, 05:39:16 PM »
They have not released any information about it.

Does that seem ok to you?

so your telling me you don't know all the facts

tu_holmes

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Re: Cowardly Cops
« Reply #199 on: March 28, 2013, 05:41:26 PM »
so your telling me you don't know all the facts

I know 2 ladies were driving a truck delivering papers minding their own business and they got shot up with 100+ bullets by 7 cops.

They were MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS... That's a FACT.

What facts do I "need to know"?

If it were YOU and 6 of your friends, you'd be in jail awaiting trial, but they are cops so nothing has happened.