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Author Topic: USA listens to devil's whispers, wants to ruin world  (Read 12188 times)
24KT
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« Reply #175 on: February 26, 2013, 03:49:53 AM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZaU030bjmU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZaU030bjmU</a>
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« Reply #176 on: February 26, 2013, 06:33:38 AM »

No, what ...if anything is paid, is for the gold. Hardly a bad business model, just indicative of the fact that the company is highly profitable and doesn't feel the need to nickle & dime us with unnecessary & superfluous costs.

How can they be profitable if they sell gold at (or, as you'be hinted below) spot price and they have the cost of the plastic on top of the price of the good itself.

Come on 24KT - this is simple stuff: either you pay for the plastic or Karatbars pays for the plastic. It's not free.



If you say so. Roll Eyes

Provide us a definition of what "currency grade" gold is and show us where you got it from please.


It is what I stated it to be. I don't care "how it sounds to you", and I don't stand behind whatever interpretation you choose to take. I've already stated the purpose & function of the holograms & serial numbers.

You stated that anyone can trivially detect a counterfeit. Do you stand behind this assertion of yours or do you want to rescind it?


For the most part, that is what most karatbars owners are doing at the moment. IMO, one would be foolish to spend their karatbars at the moment while cash (paper or digital) is still being accepted. I know personally that if gold is at $1600/oz, and I had to make a $1600 purchase, I would prefer to give $1600 in fiat paper than fork out an ounce worth of karatbars. My karatbars are a hedge against inflation, and if I use those today, ...over the long run when gold does revalue upwards as it is destined to do imo, then that $1600 purchase today becomes essentially a $5,000 purchase if gold goes to $5,000/oz which many experts predict could very well happen.

Your Karatbars are a nothing but a scam to separate a fool from her money. And gold will not go to $5,000 an ounce. Not too long ago you were saying $2,000/ounce was imminent and urging people to buy now, while they still had a chance... we're a long ways from $2,000/ounce and the support at $1,500 doesn't look all too solid either.

The purpose of the K-Exchanges is to provide a convenient point of exchange IF one had a need to quickly exchange some of their gold back into cash. ie: If one found themselves in need of a quick $500 or whatever amount, and an ATM wasn't an option (for whatever reason) they could exchange a minimal amount of karatbars for the small amount of cash they needed without having to liquidate an entire ounce. It conveniently allows people to keep more of their gold in gold for as long as possible.

Then why have you repeatedly stated that the plastic cards can be used in lieu of currency at many establishments?

Let me give you a little scenario as an example:

ie: The year is 1978 and gold is $40/oz. You choose to buy a pair of Calvin Klein jeans priced at $40.
The merchant agrees to accept an ounce of gold in exchange.
Fast forward a few years, and gold is now $400/oz. You've essentially paid $400 for your Calvins.

Wow... are you really that stupid? I'm at a loss for words... Huh

The ability to effect transactions in karatbars is something one should only use quite sparingly imo, and not until you essentially have no choice but to use karatbars.

Don't tell me how to use my Karatbars... You've states that there is extensive network of businesses accepting Karatbars. I asked you to name a restaurant, a car dealer or an airline that accepts Karatbars. You can't. I guess the network isn't quite as extensive as you make I out to be. Hardly a surprise.

Here's another scenario:
ie: The year is 1978 and gold is $40/oz. John acquires a 1 oz coin. Susan acquires 31 x 1g Karatbars.
Fast forward a few years, gold is now $400/oz. John & Susan each are in need of a quick $80

John has to liquidate his entire stockpile of gold and gets $320 in rapidly depreciating paper as change.
He has no more gold left and doesn't have enough to buy another ounce. He has to come up with another $80 to even get back into gold.

Susan on the other hand simply liquidated 6 of her 31 karatbars. She still has 25 karatbars of gold left.

By the time John is able to get his hands on another $80 to get back into gold, Gold is now $800/oz

Susan still has 25g of gold, and was able to acquire 3 more grams (1 gram at a time) before gold went to $800

John's total savings in paper are valued at $400 in depreciated paper
Susan's total savings in gold karatbars are valued at ~ $722 in depreciated paper

Even without replenishing the savings, John's savings would be at $320, and Susan's would be valued at $645

Who has retained their purchasing power and stayed ahead of inflation due to the flexibility afforded by Karatbars?

Let's pretend that your contrived example is accurate. Why couldn't John acquire 1 gram bars from a reputable bullion dealer like Credit Suisse, instead of a plastic card from a company that peddles its wares on Internet fora with crappy presentations made by intellectually challenged people who think that there's such a thing as 999.9% pure gold.

Yes, yes... I know... holograms! Roll Eyes


Having been shopping in multiple jurisdictions that had depreciating currency values, I can tell you merchants readily & eagerly prefer to exchange their goods & services for something that had far greater purchasing power and held value far better than their usual medium of exchange.

Perhaps - but how many of those merchants are willing to take your word that a plastic card they've never seen before actually contains any gold at all? I'll tell you: zero, zip, zilch.


Why are you so concerned with the number of K-Exchanges that may or may not be in Las Vegas anyway? You obviously have no desire to acquire Karatbars, so don't worry if the entire database of Vegas K-Exchanges is not yet published

I want to know how liquid my investment is and how many hoops I have to jump through when I need to use my plastic gold "bars".


Again as I previously stated, I don't have the entire database of k-Exchanges throughout the entire world, and I'm not about to call Germany to request an updated list simply to satisfy the desires of someone who clearly has no interest in acquiring karatbars. If this is something you'd like to know, I suggest you contact the head office in Stuttgart. If you don't want to call to Germany, then perhaps you can wait a few months until everyone is comfortably settled into the new USA office located on Wall Street, 20th floor, and speak with someone there.

Ooh - Wall Street. Now I'm sold. But I'm impatient; what's the number in Germany. I really want to know what coffee shops I can use these plastic cards at. And I have other questions that you, apparently, can't answer. Perhaps they can.

Actually our target date is October 2013 for this feature to be fully functional worldwide. Smiley

But I want coffee now. But with that aside, I'll be sure to check back with you in October to see if this "global" network magically materializes in the next eight months.
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« Reply #177 on: February 26, 2013, 02:45:28 PM »

How can they be profitable if they sell gold at (or, as you'be hinted below) spot price and they have the cost of the plastic on top of the price of the good itself.

Come on 24KT - this is simple stuff: either you pay for the plastic or Karatbars pays for the plastic. It's not free.

Yes it is very simple. Why you insist on twisting it into something complicated is beyond me.

Karatbars Int is profitable because their costs to produce karatbars is less than their selling price.

I never said there is no cost to plastic, simply that the purchaser of the karatbars isn't paying for it.

It's like when someone first requests delivery on 100 grams of karatbars. Shipping is free. That doesn't mean FedEx doesn't charge, simply that the client who is having their 100 grams delivered to them isn't paying for it.

Quote
Provide us a definition of what "currency grade" gold is and show us where you got it from please.

Currency grade gold is the quality of gold used by governments. The same quality of gold you find in government depositories. The quality of gold governments trade with each other and used to settle debts. They do not store jewellry in those vaults, they do not store coins in those vaults, and they do not store dore bars in those vaults, ...only 999.9 LBMA GDL gold.

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You stated that anyone can trivially detect a counterfeit. Do you stand behind this assertion of yours or do you want to rescind it?

I stated that any merchant or store clerk could easily detect a gold bar that has been tampered with.

Quote
Your Karatbars are a nothing but a scam to separate a fool from her money.

If that's what you think, then I suppose you won't be acquiring any then huh?
When it comes to Karatbars, I will gladly wear the label of the fool.

Quote
And gold will not go to $5,000 an ounce. Not too long ago you were saying $2,000/ounce was imminent and urging people to buy now, while they still had a chance... we're a long ways from $2,000/ounce and the support at $1,500 doesn't look all too solid either.

As for support for $1500 not looking too solid, you obviously haven't checked the prices today.  Shocked
Gold is up $21.10 today. As of 17:20 pm Eastern today, Gold is $1614.70

Those prices quoted at kitco btw represent the spot for paper. I believe we will soon see the price for physical separate and diverge from the price for paper. As for when... who know? but i believe it will come.

Quote
Then why have you repeatedly stated that the plastic cards can be used in lieu of currency at many establishments?

Because they can be, and will continue to be at a growing rate. The USA is not the only country in the world, and face to face is not the only way transactions are conducted these days.

It's kind of like telephones, and email addresses. When Alexander graham Bell and his assistant were the only ones who had telephones, it didn't really seem to be a great invention. People still got dressed, saddled up their horses and travelled to send someone a message. As more & more telephones came into existence, there were more people you could call. now telephones are everywhere. The same with fax machines, email addresses etc. When I got my first email address, hardly anyone had an email address. There were very few people with whom one could email. Now, practically EVERYONE has an email addy, most more than one.

Helen Keller was once asked if she thought there was anything worse than being blind.
She responded "Yes, to have sight, but no vision"  

Those with the vision to see where this is, and where it's going will see it. Those without vision will not.

Quote
I'm at a loss for words... Huh

That would be my wish.  Grin

Quote
Don't tell me how to use my Karatbars... You've states that there is extensive network of businesses accepting Karatbars. I asked you to name a restaurant, a car dealer or an airline that accepts Karatbars. You can't. I guess the network isn't quite as extensive as you make I out to be. Hardly a surprise.

Well since you don't have any karatbars, I can't very well tell you how to use them can I?

I do know of one particularly innovative airline that has commissioned private label karatbars with their own logos & artwork. I don't know how they plan to use them, or if they will be accepting them as a form of payment. Until they are published, I don't think it is my place to be speaking publicly about the deal.

As for a restaurant, there's "The Country Bar" its a pub, restaurant, & banquet facility {whispering}...in the Czech Republic
They have free wifi, and dogs & horses are always welcomed especially appaloosas.  Cheesy

Quote
Let's pretend that your contrived example is accurate. Why couldn't John acquire 1 gram bars from a reputable bullion dealer like Credit Suisse, instead of a plastic card from a company that peddles its wares on Internet fora with crappy presentations made by intellectually challenged people who think that there's such a thing as 999.9% pure gold.

Yes, yes... I know... holograms! Roll Eyes

Well there is no need to be rude, or to try to ridicule Karatbars.
That's just juvenile & pedantic. A guy with your intelligence level is better than that.

You do know there have been serious issues with credit suisse don't you?

To answer your question because Credit Suisse is not a gold dealer, they are a refinery.

There are higher upfront costs for a comparable 1g piece, and a lower buyback price.

Purchasing currency grade 1g LBMA, credit-suisse bars require a minimum order of 50 units or more units to get 1g weights, and Credit Suisse dealers cannot deliver to as many countries as Karatbars. Try doing a search for 1g Credit Suisse gold bars, and see how many dealers are indefinitely "out-of-stock". For that matter, see how many gold dealers will sell you 1 gram at a time.

The same issue applies with DeGussa weights as well. DeGussa is one of the oldest and most respected refineries in Europe. You can get a sheet of gold that you can snap off into 1g sizes similar to the squares in a Caramilk bar, however, you must buy a larger quantity in order to be able to break off 1g transaction friendly weights.

Unless... you purchase those 1g DeGussa units through Karatbars. In addition to our production facilities within the Atasay refinery, we also have a regular production run by DeGussa as well. We also have another well known LBMA GDL refinery coming on board with us as well. I won't mention the name until Karatbars issues this statement publicly. Seems alot of LBMA GDL refineries are beginning to get the vision when it comes to Karatbars. Since Karatbars is the world's largest producer and seller of 1g LBMA GDL gold bars, maybe they figure... "If you can't beat 'em, ...join em? {shrug}

Karatbars is a very reputable gold dealer. Reputable enough to have both The Vatican AND The British Royal family commission their own private label collectible karatbars. That's credible & reputable enough for me.
 
Quote
Perhaps - but how many of those merchants are willing to take your word that a plastic card they've never seen before actually contains any gold at all? I'll tell you: zero, zip, zilch.

You know, surprisingly enough, my experience has been that those who know gold have instantly accepted and recognized the karatbars to be real. The only skepticism I have found was from those who don't regularly deal in gold. This was very surprising to me because I would have expected it to be the other way around.

Last summer, I was walking by one of those corporate "We Buy Gold" types of places and saw some large novelty 400 oz replica piggy banks being used as display items. Since I was on friendly terms with the store clerk I rushed in to ask her where she had gotten them. She didn't have a clue, and referred me to the store mgr, who also didn't know. She said you'd have to ask my boss, he was the one who got them. As luck would have it, Regional Mgr for Southern ON happened to be in the store at the moment, and they asked him to come speak with me. I was desperate to know where he had acquired them because I had been trying for months. He laughed saying he also had the hardest time since they were sold out all over, but he had managed to buy up the suppliers last remaining stock for the display cases for his retail outlets throughout Southern ON. Anyways, he asked me why I wanted them, and we got to chatting, I showed him a gold bar and he instantly recognized the hallmarks on the karatbars, and knew they were the genuine thing. I asked him how he knew they were real without testing them, and his response was "I know the refinery well... I'm Turkish"  He said he might be able to see if he could scrape up 3 or 4 more of them for me, and that perhaps we could discuss it over coffee, or dinner etc. I decided I wasn't that desperate to get them, and that I'd wait until the supplier restocked their inventory.

The same thing happened back in November when having coffee with a former colleague from the film industry that I ran into in another city. I was telling him about Karatbars, and as we left the coffee shop, he said "Let's go see a friend of mine and show him these, I wanna know what he thinks about them." We went 2 blocks over to a Jewellery store and we showed it to the owner. Bill asked him how much would you give if someone wanted to sell you one of these? The owner immediately said about $45 / $50 a piece. Bill seemed surprised, and said "Don't you need to test it first?" and Perry's response was, "Naw, I can just look at them and see that they're real." That surprised even me because he had never seen nor even heard of Karatbars before. Bill exclaimed that he was surprised that Perry would offer that price, and you know what? Perry blushed, failed to meet my gaze, and stated he couldn't really go much higher because he had to make a profit when he resold it, either to a buyer or a refinery, who in turn needed their profit margin as well. Perry thought Bill was saying it wasn't high enough, when in fact Bill was surprised that a gold bar could even be resold for that much. As I said Perry had never even heard of the Karatbars concept. You should have seen his eyes light up when I told him about the concept of the K-Exchange, and the ability to be incentivized at a guaranteed 2% over buy back.

Quote
I want to know how liquid my investment is and how many hoops I have to jump through when I need to use my plastic gold "bars".

karatbars are not an "investment". They are a unique collectible store of value. They are extremely liquid. You can simply sell them back to Karatbars, and have the funds loaded onto an international debit mastercard in a few days, just like when you transfer funds online from one account to another (easy peasy), ...or you can go directly to the nearest local K-Exchange.


Quote
Ooh - Wall Street. Now I'm sold. But I'm impatient; what's the number in Germany. I really want to know what coffee shops I can use these plastic cards at. And I have other questions that you, apparently, can't answer. Perhaps they can.

In Germany, I really don't know {shrug} I'm not in Germany and I don't keep track of that market.
Can you tell me the precise number of coffee shops in Las Vegas that accept American Express?
Do you even actively keep track of that on a daily basis?

Quote
But I want coffee now.

Well there is a specialty coffee dealer in the Czech Republic that takes orders online. I'm sure you can buy some specialty coffee there, and have them delivery it to you, ...unfortunately, you'll have to make the coffee yourself though.

I do know of a holding company with a chain of coffee shops, convenience store, and gas pumps throughout the USA that has signed a K-Exchange agreement. I don't know when they will be published though. Personally, I can't wait for that. It will shut up a lot of detractors. I know our target this year is to have a million K-Exchanges on board. Whether we reach that this year or next, I can't say. It has been my experience that the only speed records Germans are known for making is on the autobahn. Things may progress slowly & methodically, ...however they are known for their thoroughness & precision.

Why don't you send me those questions via PM?

Quote
But with that aside, I'll be sure to check back with you in October to see if this "global" network magically materializes in the next eight months.

HA! Oh trust me, ...I have no doubt that you will. lol  Grin
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« Reply #178 on: February 26, 2013, 04:04:13 PM »

Yes it is very simple. Why you insist on twisting it into something complicated is beyond me.

Karatbars Int is profitable because their costs to produce karatbars is less than their selling price.

How can this be? Clearly the cost of gold is out of their control; let's call it X per unit of weight, and they then need to manufacture the card itself at some cost Y. In order to make a profit they need to sell a Karabat with W units of gold for at least ((W * X) + Y + 1). If they don't, they don't make a profit.

In other words, they must charge a premium over the price of the raw gold itself. In which case, why not fucking buy the gold to begin with?!? You are paying for the fucking plastic!


I never said there is no cost to plastic, simply that the purchaser of the karatbars isn't paying for it.

Then who is? Karatbars can't be both profitable and selling this stuff for less than cost. You can't have your cake and eat it too.


It's like when someone first requests delivery on 100 grams of karatbars. Shipping is free. That doesn't mean FedEx doesn't charge, simply that the client who is having their 100 grams delivered to them isn't paying for it.

Right. But Karatbars is. So unless the price on the bars is sufficient to actually cover the cost of the gold, the cost of the manufacturing and the cost of the shipping, Karatbars wouldn't be making any money. Yet they are. 2 + 2 is... what?


Currency grade gold is the quality of gold used by governments. The same quality of gold you find in government depositories. The quality of gold governments trade with each other and used to settle debts. They do not store jewellry in those vaults, they do not store coins in those vaults, and they do not store dore bars in those vaults, ...only 999.9 LBMA GDL gold.

995.0 gold is LBMA GLD. And you need at least 350 ounces. So a 1 gram gold bar isn't GDL anything... But don't take my word for it, check out http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/index.cfm?page_id=27.

Plus, I suggest that you don't have a fucking idea what "999.9" means; the gold in a gold bar is somehow mixed with the plastic. This means that it cannot possibly have a millesimal fineness of 999.9 since 999.9 parts out of a thousand would have to be gold, and we've already established that a gold bar is 98.6% plastic and 1.4% gold.


I stated that any merchant or store clerk could easily detect a gold bar that has been tampered with.

But they can't detect a counterfeit one? What's the point in being able to detect tampering if I can produce "untampered" fakes?


If that's what you think, then I suppose you won't be acquiring any then huh?

You bet. If I want gold, I will buy gold; not plastic. And I certainly don't pay a premium for plastic.


As for support for $1500 not looking too solid, you obviously haven't checked the prices today.  Shocked
Gold is up $21.10 today. As of 17:20 pm Eastern today, Gold is $1614.70

So, let me get this straight. A 1.3% increase suggests the floor of $1,500 is solid? Boy howdy!


Those prices quoted at kitco btw represent the spot for paper. I believe we will soon see the price for physical separate and diverge from the price for paper. As for when... who know? but i believe it will come.

You know what they say about beliefs - they're like assholes: everybody has one and yours stinks.


Because they can be, and will continue to be at a growing rate. The USA is not the only country in the world, and face to face is not the only way transactions are conducted these days.

Find me one person with 100 square miles of Las Vegas willing to sell me a car and will accept payment in Karatbars.


It's kind of like telephones, and email addresses. When Alexander graham Bell and his assistant were the only ones who had telephones, it didn't really seem to be a great invention. People still got dressed, saddled up their horses and travelled to send someone a message. As more & more telephones came into existence, there were more people you could call. now telephones are everywhere. The same with fax machines, email addresses etc. When I got my first email address, hardly anyone had an email address. There were very few people with whom one could email. Now, practically EVERYONE has an email addy, most more than one.

The problem is that Karatbars aren't practical as a currency: they don't satisfy the property of easy divisibility, which is of paramount importance. If I need to buy a $1.50 sprocket, you can't scrape off a $1.50 of gold from my gold bar and all is well.


Helen Keller was once asked if she thought there was anything worse than being blind.
She responded "Yes, to have sight, but no vision"

No, sorry. I have no vision for silly little plastic collectibles.


Those with the vision to see where this is, and where it's going will see it. Those without vision will not.

Those with vision see that you are peddling a product that makes no sense, hoping to make commissions.


Well since you don't have any karatbars, I can't very well tell you how to use them can I?

But let's assume I did. Let's assume I have $1,000,000 in gold in convenient Karatbars form. I haul them around in a big truck, because of all the extra plastic surrounding the gold (Hmm... maybe not so convenient after all). With my Karatbars in tow, I set out to spend some money. Where can I go to spend my hard earned plastic gold? Tell me ONE FUCKING PLACE in my area that will accept payment with Karatbars. Not in a year. Today.


I do know of one particularly innovative airline that has commissioned private label karatbars with their own logos & artwork. I don't know how they plan to use them, or if they will be accepting them as a form of payment. Until they are published, I don't think it is my place to be speaking publicly about the deal.

Right... a mysterious and anonymous airline... yeah.


As for a restaurant, there's "The Country Bar" its a pub, restaurant, & banquet facility {whispering}...in the Czech Republic
They have free wifi, and dogs & horses are always welcomed especially appaloosas.  Cheesy

Well, at least that's something. Now, I just wonder how I can order a beer, pay with a gold bar and get change back...


You do know there have been serious issues with credit suisse don't you?

What issues? As far as I know, their bullion bars are second to none and their name is well-known and respected. Have they delivered any bars that weren't as represented?

To answer your question because Credit Suisse is not a gold dealer, they are a refinery.

So? What do I care? I'm only interested in the gold. Not their business model.


There are higher upfront costs for a comparable 1g piece, and a lower buyback price.

So, a refinery has higher up front costs, but a middle man, who will buy from the refinery, massage the gold a bit and sell it to me doesn't? How does that make sense?


Purchasing currency grade 1g LBMA, credit-suisse bars require a minimum order of 50 units or more units to get 1g weights, and Credit Suisse dealers cannot deliver to as many countries as Karatbars. Try doing a search for 1g Credit Suisse gold bars, and see how many dealers are indefinitely "out-of-stock". For that matter, see how many gold dealers will sell you 1 gram at a time.

I don't want to buy 1 gram of gold anymore than I want to buy one pea or one walnut.


Karatbars is a very reputable gold dealer. Reputable enough to have both The Vatican AND The British Royal family commission their own private label collectible karatbars. That's credible & reputable enough for me.

Perhaps. But that doesn't mean their product makes sense. I mean, shit, Microsoft is a reputable software company and Windows 8 sucks.
 

Last summer, blah blah blah

Yeah... right.


The same thing happened back in November when having coffee with a former colleague from the film industry that I ran into in another city. I was telling him about Karatbars, and as we left the coffee shop, he said "Let's go see a friend of mine and show him these, I wanna know what he thinks about them." We went 2 blocks over to a Jewellery store and we showed it to the owner. Bill asked him how much would you give if someone wanted to sell you one of these? The owner immediately said about $45 / $50 a piece. Bill seemed surprised, and said "Don't you need to test it first?" and Perry's response was, "Naw, I can just look at them and see that they're real." That surprised even me because he had never seen nor even heard of Karatbars before. Bill exclaimed that he was surprised that Perry would offer that price, and you know what? Perry blushed, failed to meet my gaze, and stated he couldn't really go much higher because he had to make a profit when he resold it, either to a buyer or a refinery, who in turn needed their profit margin as well. Perry thought Bill was saying it wasn't high enough, when in fact Bill was surprised that a gold bar could even be resold for that much. As I said Perry had never even heard of the Karatbars concept. You should have seen his eyes light up when I told him about the concept of the K-Exchange, and the ability to be incentivized at a guaranteed 2% over buy back.

Where is that jeweler who can tell that a plastic card he's never seen before contains gold?


karatbars are not an "investment". They are a unique collectible store of value. They are extremely liquid. You can simply sell them back to Karatbars, and have the funds loaded onto an international debit mastercard in a few days, just like when you transfer funds online from one account to another (easy peasy), ...or you can go directly to the nearest local K-Exchange.

"A few days" isn't liquid...


Can you tell me the precise number of coffee shops in Las Vegas that accept American Express?
Do you even actively keep track of that on a daily basis?

I don't need to - I know that my card will be accepted in every place I go.


I do know of a holding company with a chain of coffee shops, convenience store, and gas pumps throughout the USA that has signed a K-Exchange agreement. I don't know when they will be published though. Personally, I can't wait for that. It will shut up a lot of detractors. I know our target this year is to have a million K-Exchanges on board. Whether we reach that this year or next, I can't say. It has been my experience that the only speed records Germans are known for making is on the autobahn. Things may progress slowly & methodically, ...however they are known for their thoroughness & precision.

How convenient. Just like the airline, you know it's there but can't reveal information... I'll bet you a shiny 1 oz Gold Maple that not a single gas station in the United States will accept payments in Karatbars in 2013 or 2014. Care to put your money where your mouth is?


HA! Oh trust me, ...I have no doubt that you will. lol  Grin

At least we agree on something Smiley
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« Reply #179 on: February 26, 2013, 04:06:41 PM »

Wow my thread  is kicking ass go 24kt you go girl haha. Oh and the mods on this section are the biggest hypocrites. They delete and edit posts/threaten selectively. For example they let slide anti-muslim anti-islam comments in this section including ones inciting violence, murder of Muslims, encouraging it, complimenting it, cheering it on, , etc...In fact some of them partake in it.  However often times they go out of their way to censor stuff that makes the US or US army look like shit.
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« Reply #180 on: February 26, 2013, 04:09:37 PM »

Now you're getting the picture!

The rest of your irrelevant drivel was snipped to get to the crux of things.

G'Night honeybunny  Kiss

Still can't construct an actual argument huh?

You failed to show we are losing any significant rights.  What you showed were restrictions or adjustments.

Other than the two I listed, not you, those are the only changes any here has been able to serve up.

Whavenue have done is exactly what I said you would do:  clips, images, dodging and deflection.   I will add blatant denial to the list now.

The weakness of your arguments similar to me saying that Canada is a nazi state because if you get caught with pepper spray in the capital building you will spend 3-5 years in prison.

Which would be completely retarded....as usual from you.

PS:  jag is that all you got, is that all you are?  All you have are weak ass arguments and jibberish backed by retarded clips made on final cut studio?



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« Reply #181 on: February 26, 2013, 04:10:58 PM »

lol americans in denial, thinking they have not lost any rights in the last decade. That's really really funny. "Freedom" the american delusion just like the 'american dream' you have to be asleep to believe it.
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« Reply #182 on: February 26, 2013, 04:12:51 PM »

Wow my thread  is kicking ass go 24kt you go girl haha. Oh and the mods on this section are the biggest hypocrites. They delete and edit posts/threaten selectively. For example they let slide anti-muslim anti-islam comments in this section including ones inciting violence, murder, etc... of Muslims, encouraging it, complimenting it, cheering it on, etc... but then go out of their way often times to censor stuff that makes the US or US army look like shit.

No one called you any names Ahmed.  Read the rules again.  Get an English translator if you need to.

Mean while as we continue to bomb the shit out of the cave dwelling AQ smelly animals in Afghanistan and else where perhaps you can leave your nice western country, our northern colony and actually support their cause.
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« Reply #183 on: February 26, 2013, 04:14:56 PM »

lol americans in denial, thinking they have not lost any rights in the last decade. That's really really funny. "Freedom" the american delusion just like the 'american dream' you have to be asleep to believe it.

List them and explain how they are leading to pour demise.  None of these other retards can. 

Meanwhile as we turn away millions every year trying to get into this country you go on believing the is no American Drean.

Let me ask you Ahmed, do you believe in a smelly cave dwelling animal dream?  You know one where you can stone women in the town square or beat them to death?
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« Reply #184 on: February 26, 2013, 04:23:01 PM »

Wow this thread sucks ass go avxo haha. Oh and the mods on this section are very professional. They don't let their own opinions get in the way. For example they let obvious bullshit posted by Muslim extremists slide...  However often times they're critical of their own country.  They never censor or delete stuff posted by foreigners that obviously hold a hateful grudge against the United States (and its people) that makes the US or US army look like shit.

Fixed
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« Reply #185 on: February 26, 2013, 04:34:54 PM »

I smell trash but I won't point to it, it's in the viscinity  Grin Oh wait what were we talking about again? How the US sucks balls and wants to make the rest of the world suck more in order to make itself look good through perpetual warfare?
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« Reply #186 on: February 26, 2013, 05:00:40 PM »

I smell trash but I won't point to it, it's in the viscinity  Grin Oh wait what were we talking about again? How the US sucks balls and wants to make the rest of the world suck more in order to make itself look good through perpetual warfare?



So....you gonna post the evidence Ozmo asked?
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« Reply #187 on: February 27, 2013, 01:37:35 AM »

How can this be? Clearly the cost of gold is out of their control; let's call it X per unit of weight, and they then need to manufacture the card itself at some cost Y. In order to make a profit they need to sell a Karabat with W units of gold for at least ((W * X) + Y + 1). If they don't, they don't make a profit.

In other words, they must charge a premium over the price of the raw gold itself. In which case, why not fucking buy the gold to begin with?!? You are paying for the fucking plastic!

Then who is? Karatbars can't be both profitable and selling this stuff for less than cost. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Right. But Karatbars is. So unless the price on the bars is sufficient to actually cover the cost of the gold, the cost of the manufacturing and the cost of the shipping, Karatbars wouldn't be making any money. Yet they are. 2 + 2 is... what?

There's a HUGE difference between a manufacturers cost per unit, and the going market rate per unit.

Maybe a simple analogy would help make it clearer for you.

If I was a big name fancy haute couture designer, whose actual costs for material, thread, beading, lace, buttons & labour etc came to a total of $40 to make a floor length evening gown, ...and the going rate for a comparable haute couture floor length evening gown was $5,000 ...don't you suppose that I could sell my evening gowns for $3995 and still be highly profitable? ...so profitable in fact that I could afford to throw in an extra button?

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995.0 gold is LBMA GLD. And you need at least 350 ounces. So a 1 gram gold bar isn't GDL anything... But don't take my word for it, check out http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/index.cfm?page_id=27.

Actually I said GDL gold, as in Good Delivery List gold. I didn't say Good Delivery Bars.
A Good Delivery Bar is a 400 oz bar.

And if you scroll through the list you will indeed find the Atasay refinery on the Good Delivery List

http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/index.cfm?page_id=147&title=good_delivery_lists

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Plus, I suggest that you don't have a fucking idea what "999.9" means; the gold in a gold bar is somehow mixed with the plastic. This means that it cannot possibly have a millesimal fineness of 999.9 since 999.9 parts out of a thousand would have to be gold, and we've already established that a gold bar is 98.6% plastic and 1.4% gold.

You can suggest whatever you want. it doesn't make it so.
And the gold is NOT mixed with the plastic. That's ridiculous.
I'm embarrased for you that you would even make such a ridiculous allegation.

And in actuality, the card is 100% plastic, and the gold ingot embedded in the card is gold refined to a purity of 999.9.The gold and the card are 2 separate substances. Your argument is not only a specious and intentionally misleading one, it's also ridiculous beyond words, and I'm even further embarassed for you that you would even make it. Heaven help those for whom it made any sense to. That's like saying a bottle of wine is not 100% wine because the bottle is made of glass, the label is made of paper, and the cork is etc., etc., Therefore the wine isn't 100% pure wine, it's X% glass, X% paper, and X% cork. Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

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But they can't detect a counterfeit one? What's the point in being able to detect tampering if I can produce "untampered" fakes?

If you think you can produce a passable and untampered fake... go for it. See how far you get.


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You know what they say about beliefs - they're like assholes: everybody has one and yours stinks.

Find me one person with 100 square miles of Las Vegas willing to sell me a car and will accept payment in Karatbars.

You go find yourself someone within 100 square miles of Las Vegas who will sell you a car for karatbars. What do I look like... your own personal shopper? Are you even in the market to buy a car, ...or are you just being an asshole?


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The problem is that Karatbars aren't practical as a currency: they don't satisfy the property of easy divisibility, which is of paramount importance. If I need to buy a $1.50 sprocket, you can't scrape off a $1.50 of gold from my gold bar and all is well.

Karatbars are indeed a practical medium of exchange. Infact, they are a far more practical medium of exchange than American Eagles or Canadian Maples due to the very same argument you just made. You cannot scrape off $1.50 to exchange for a sprocket, or $50 to exchange for a bag of groceries, or a tank of gas or whatever.... It requires the liquidation of the entire oz. which is problematic (see my earlier example with John)

A $1.50 sprocket may be equivalent in value to 0.000X grams of gold. By Oct 2013 (barring no glitches) the holder of a karatbars account will have the ability to exchange a mere fraction of a gram.


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No, sorry. I have no vision for silly little plastic collectibles.

That is quite evident. Now I know how Ray Kinsella must have felt. lol

That's ok. Lack of vision is not always a permanent condition. When I was a kid, I lacked vision as well. I lacked the vision for silly little paper collectibles. I shudder to think of how many mint condition bobby orr rookie cards I threw away / gave away/ skidded off school yard playgrounds. Bobby Orr, Mario LeMeiux, Paul Henderson, Half the time, I threw out the hockey cards, 'cause I only bought them in order to get the 5 cent piece of gum that was stiff like cardboard. If only I knew. OY!

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Those with vision see that you are peddling a product that makes no sense, hoping to make commissions.

Ya know, when Bill Gates & Steve Jobs first presented the idea of PCs, the head of IBM didn't have the vision to see it. He stated uncategorically that there was probably only 4 people on the entire planet... maybe the President of the United States or the President of GM who could possibly have a need for a personal computer. Well history has shown how much of a visionary he was... NOT!


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But let's assume I did. Let's assume I have $1,000,000 in gold in convenient Karatbars form. I haul them around in a big truck, because of all the extra plastic surrounding the gold (Hmm... maybe not so convenient after all). With my Karatbars in tow, I set out to spend some money. Where can I go to spend my hard earned plastic gold?

Why on earth would you be hauling $1,000,000 worth of anything (cash or gold) around with you in the first place? Are you homeless? Are you one of those guys who hauls his possessions around with him everywhere he goes in a supermarket shopping cart?

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Tell me ONE FUCKING PLACE in my area that will accept payment with Karatbars. Not in a year. Today.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Vegas brothels. I heard there was a Mustang Ranch that got taken over and run by the federal government, but it went broke.

I am not personally aware of a K-Exchange in Las Vegas at the moment. That doesn't mean it does not exist, ...only that I am not yet personally aware of one. Understand this has been 3 years in development, ...and all the components are coming together slowly but surely. And as beautiful as it is, ...it is still an unfinished work of art. Remember, Rome was not built in a day.


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Right... a mysterious and anonymous airline... yeah.

No, I wouldn't say it's a mysterious or anonymous airline. I think chaste is more like it.  Wink
{whispering} Feel free to read between the lines on that one

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Well, at least that's something. Now, I just wonder how I can order a beer, pay with a gold bar and get change back...

At the moment, you can exchange physical karatbars and get change back in fiat paper, ...or after Oct 2013, you can exchange physical karatbars and get change back in either fiat paper, or transferred from the establishment's Karatbars account to your karatbars account, ...or you can simply transfer an exact amount without the need for change, just like you do when using a bank debit card.

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What issues? As far as I know, their bullion bars are second to none and their name is well-known and respected. Have they delivered any bars that weren't as represented?

I don't consider it my place to air the dirty linens of my competition in public.
I prefer instead to speak positively about my own brand.

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So? What do I care? I'm only interested in the gold. Not their business model.

You should care about the business model. That's like asking why can't I buy my ketchup from Heinz?
Heinz is the manufacturer, they don't have retail outlets. They rely on retail outlets to sell their products.

IKEA's business model is different however. In IKEA's instance they are both manufacturer AND retailer.
That dual role is conducive to greater profitability. The profitability of a vertically integrated company is "off the chain" as they say... so much so that they can often afford to throw in a few extra buttons or a little piece of plastic at no charge. Kind of like when McDonald's give you a packet of ketchup without charging you for it. Or is it your contention that McDonald's has a bad business model because they don't charge the consumer a nickle to have a packet of ketchup with their fries?

Wait a minute... now I know why you keep insisting I find you a car dealership in Vegas, an airline, and a restaurant that accept karatbars.  You're probably sick & tired of getting turned away every time you show up at the assembly line in Detroit trying to buy a car. Ahhh... I get it now.

Avxo: I wanna buy a car!
Assembly line foreman: no avxo we only make them here, we don't sell them from here.
Avxo: I don't care about your business model, I wanna f'ing car
Assembly line foreman: No avxo, you need to find a dealership in your local area
Avxo: I want a f'ing car NOW!

You're probably running out of cash too, what with all those darned flights back & forth from Vegas to Detroit,
...and you're probably hungry as well huh? Lord knows airline food not always the best.

Poor thing.  Is your tummy grumbling... making scary noises? Cry
 
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So, a refinery has higher up front costs, but a middle man, who will buy from the refinery, massage the gold a bit and sell it to me doesn't? How does that make sense?

I am saying there is a higher upfront cost for the buyer to purchase credit-suisse bars.
In your zeal to be argumentative, belligerent & bellicose, you are not even comprehending what you're reading.

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I don't want to buy 1 gram of gold anymore than I want to buy one pea or one walnut.

That's YOU! One person out of how many billions worldwide? While there may be others who feel the same as you, there are imo a greater majority who either cannot afford to acquire their gold by the ounce or kilo, ...or who may see how clever it is to have gold in smaller, transaction friendly weights. And still more who see the ability to magnify & accelerate their gold accumulation at essentially no out-of-pocket cost as more than ideal. I certainly hope you're not suggesting that karatbars should change it's business model to cater to your individual tastes and preferences rather than to make gold ownership more accessible for the masses? Uh, ...please don't hold your breath on that one.

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Perhaps. But that doesn't mean their product makes sense. I mean, shit, Microsoft is a reputable software company and Windows 8 sucks

Yet you and so many other people felt the need to upgrade the O/S from XP, Vista, & Windows 7...
It's called progress my friend. And when one finds a better, more clever, and more innovative way to achieve the end objective, keeping pace and staying ahead or new technological, or economical paradigmns, then upgrades are necessary if one wants to remain functional. Otherwise you get left behind.
 
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Yeah... right.

Yeah... right!

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Where is that jeweler who can tell that a plastic card he's never seen before contains gold?

Right about now, ...he's probably in bed.

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"A few days" isn't liquid...

It's as liquid as the hold many banks place on cheques deposited either at the teller or through the ATM.
If that's not liquid enough for you, go to a local K-Exchange.

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I don't need to - I know that my card will be accepted in every place I go.

That is not a precise number. I asked for a precise number.

Are you sure American Express is accepted everywhere you go? You probably may not go to that many places then? Or maybe it is a matter of you only go to where your American Express is accepted?

I used to have an American Express card. I switched to Visa & MasterCard. I found it bothersome that many places didn't accept Amex... only Visa or Mastercard.

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How convenient. Just like the airline, you know it's there but can't reveal information... I'll bet you a shiny 1 oz Gold Maple that not a single gas station in the United States will accept payments in Karatbars in 2013 or 2014. Care to put your money where your mouth is?

There you go again with your damned bets. you really DO live in Vegas don't you?  Roll Eyes

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At least we agree on something Smiley

Ya, ...you stink. lol. Cheesy
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« Reply #188 on: February 27, 2013, 09:32:15 AM »

Jack, this is the fallacy. Governments cannot "re-install" rights because they do not grant them in the first place.

The government does not grant rights. According to the bill of Rights, these rights are God- given, therefore no government can grant them, or take them away.

This tells me that an entity that would act against such rights, is an ungodly entity.  It also tells me that an ungodly entity has been extremely busy in the past 12 years.

All the government can do is to either choose to SECURE your rights or choose to DENY them

As unpopular as it may be to put forth, I'd say that we're witnessing what happens when God is pushed out of the picture.  Too many otherwise good people have lost track of what their rights mean, and their role in protecting the rights, and they've allowed mankind to set the score.  We're seeing the result of that arrogance, right now.

My point regarding a reinstallation, or legal restoration, or reconstruction, is that the standing design specifically cannot allow it.  The design states that we have a violator that can only be defined as one that is posing a threat--meaning that it cannot and will not allow a conclusion.

To believe in the design, is to submit to endless fear.  And the only thing to fear...
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« Reply #189 on: February 27, 2013, 05:56:45 PM »

This tells me that an entity that would act against such rights, is an ungodly entity.  It also tells me that an ungodly entity has been extremely busy in the past 12 years.

As unpopular as it may be to put forth, I'd say that we're witnessing what happens when God is pushed out of the picture.  Too many otherwise good people have lost track of what their rights mean, and their role in protecting the rights, and they've allowed mankind to set the score.  We're seeing the result of that arrogance, right now.

My point regarding a reinstallation, or legal restoration, or reconstruction, is that the standing design specifically cannot allow it.  The design states that we have a violator that can only be defined as one that is posing a threat--meaning that it cannot and will not allow a conclusion.

To believe in the design, is to submit to endless fear.  And the only thing to fear...

Hence the title of this thread  Cheesy

It looks like Ahmed has called it accurately. hahaha.

That would be:

Canadians: 758
Americans: 3
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« Reply #190 on: February 27, 2013, 06:34:21 PM »

Hence the title of this thread  Cheesy

It looks like Ahmed has called it accurately. hahaha.

That would be:

Canadians: 758
Americans: 3

Believe me, I read the writing on the wall.

But I wouldn't attempt to pin this on the USA.  It is the result of a mental illness--elitism--that afflicts people from everywhere.  The sickness seems to be exacerbated by excessive, generational wealth, and it is members of that group that are largely responsible for the problems.  Not "the USA", specifically. 

In fact, if the USA was what she's supposed to be, she would be the greatest threat against elitism/fascism/globalism.
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