Jesus tempted by the devli

[loco]

MOS will disagree with you there, if he stays consistent with his disagreement with me that Unitarians are still considered "Christians."  

And have you ever wondered why not all Christians believe that Jesus is God?  The answer is simple - because it doesn't make sense.  You have some verses which can imply that Jesus is divine, then you have other verses that imply he is human, then you have this 325 years post-Jesus non-scriptural doctrine called the Trinity that tries to mend these two conflicting views into something that does not make sense.  So every Christian has their own interpretation, yet some arrogantly claim that their interpretation is the only one which fits the definition of "Christianity," for example MOS even said that no Catholics are Christians.

Yesterday I was talking to a Christian and asked, "Do you believe Jesus is God?  Jesus prays in the Bible.  Who was he praying to, himself?"  He goes, "No...Jesus is not God, but a "human vessel" which God entered into to live in earth."  Like I said, everyone has their own interpretation and it usually requires non-scriptural phrases/beliefs, for example MOS has said, "God limited himself" even though nowhere does it say this in the Bible.

I'm not saying Christianity is all wrong - it came from the same God who sent the Qur'an to Muhammad.  But because there are proven inconsistencies which people can't make sense of, due to lost, changed and added scripts (for ex. there are numerous versions of the Bible already) - why not check the Quran for clarification and see if it makes sense.

I was born and raised in a country with a population that is 99% Roman Catholic.  I grew up Southern Baptist and believing, like MOS, that Roman Catholics are not Christians.  Now I believe differently for my own reasons.  That in itself can make for a very long discussion that is not relevant to this thread.

Just because many believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God.  Truth is not a Democracy.

Christians do agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will return some day. 

The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message.  I have read many of them, in different languages and that is yet another piece of evidence to me that the Bible is indeed the inerrant word of God.

I have actually been wanting to read the Qur'an for many years, and I did actually start reading it at the library at the university I attended many years ago.  I admit I got bored and sleepy and quit reading it, but I still want to finish it some day, in English or in Spanish...forget that Arabic stuff.

I know forum discussions can seem ugly and confrontational, but in real life I actually had many good Muslim friends, male and female, in college.  We got along great and that is probably one of the reasons I took an interest in reading the Qur'an to begin with.  I personally believe that's the way it should be, freedom of religion for all.  Christians are commanded by Jesus to spread the Gospel, but that doesn't mean we should force it on anyone.  And it doesn't mean we can't be friends with everyone, whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist. 

[bigbobs]

I was born and raised in a country with a population that is 99% Roman Catholic.  I grew up Southern Baptist and believing, like MOS, that Roman Catholics are not Christians.  Now I believe differently for my own reasons.  That in itself can make for a very long discussion that is not relevant to this thread.

Just because many believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God.  Truth is not a Democracy.

Christians do agree that, according to the Bible, Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and will return some day.  

The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message.  I have read many of them, in different languages and that is yet another piece of evidence to me that the Bible is indeed the inerrant word of God.

I have actually been wanting to read the Qur'an for many years, and I did actually start reading it at the library at the university I attended many years ago.  I admit I got bored and sleepy and quit reading it, but I still want to finish it some day, in English or in Spanish...forget that Arabic stuff.

I know forum discussions can seem ugly and confrontational, but in real life I actually had many good Muslim friends, male and female, in college.  We got along great and that is probably one of the reasons I took an interest in reading the Qur'an to begin with.  I personally believe that's the way it should be, freedom of religion for all.  Christians are commanded by Jesus to spread the Gospel, but that doesn't mean we should force it on anyone.  And it doesn't mean we can't be friends with everyone, whether they are Christian, Jew, Muslim or Atheist.  

Good post loco.  I feel the same way in that I don't judge anyone for their beliefs and you'll probably be surprised by this but my wife is a Christian.  Of course I do intend to bring her to Islam  But that doesn't create any animosity between us and there's no ultimatum given.

I do want to point out one thing which struck out at me from your post.

You said, a) many believe that Jesus is not God, and
b)  The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message

Now don't you think that such a significant fundamental disagreement over whether Jesus, the most influential character in the NT, is God or human, is considered as part of the "main message"?  What then is the "main message" if there's disagreement over such a a "main" factor?

[bigbobs]

Yes, I deny that unitarians are actually Christians.  

Unitarians actually now refer to themselves as Unitarian Universalists and it was stated that a large percent of the population no longer identify with or refer to themselves as Christians.  The reality is, we're comparing Unitarians with Trinitarians with Islamic assumption that Unitarianism is a significant, divergent portion of the whole of "Christianity".  My position has been that although I do not deny the existence and/or growth of unitarians that I don't agree that their belief are significant as compared to the whole.

In 2002, America and Canada had a total Unitarian Universalist population of 234,000.  In the 90s it was determined that the worldwide population of Unitarians was upwards of 600,000 members.  So, I considered a generous growth rate of +230% and said let's say the current Unitarians Universalist worldwide population is 2,000,000.  Then let's compare that to the worldwide Trinitarian population that adhere to Nicene Creed (Protestant, East Ortho and Catholic) which was estimated at between approximately 2,181,000,000 and 1,999,000,000 members only a couple of years ago (notice I don't refer to this population as total Christianity).  I decided to average the two census estimates and arrive at a comparative base of 2,090,000,000 members (no additional growth rate considered...which is approx 1.3% to 1.5% annaully for "Christianity").  

Sorry, did some quick math in the image below and didn't get to check it, but you get the point.  In order for Unitarians to make an impact upon Trinitarian belief you have to severely inflate the Unitarian numbers (whose base is already inflated) to grossly fallcious heigts and then severely deflate the current trinitarian population in a grossly fallacious manner to show a total unitarian percentage that is even worth considering.

I was just pointing out to loco that his beliefs were in conflict with yours regarding who is considered a Christian or not.  Unitarians aside, regardless of their # or precentage among Christians, you don't consider Catholics to be Christian either and they are a very significant portion of the total "Christian population."  Also, just because individuals don't identify themselves as "Unitarian" does not mean they definitely believe in the Trinity or Jesus' divinity.  For example Thick Nick said he's unsure of whether Jesus is man or divine, however he would not be included in your stats about the # of Unitarians.

[Man of Steel]

I was just pointing out to loco that his beliefs were in conflict with yours regarding who is considered a Christian or not.  Unitarians aside, regardless of their # or precentage among Christians, you don't consider Catholics to be Christian either and they are a very significant portion of the total "Christian population."  Also, just because individuals don't identify themselves as "Unitarian" does not mean they definitely believe in the Trinity or Jesus' divinity.  For example Thick Nick said he's unsure of whether Jesus is man or divine, however he would not be included in your stats about the # of Unitarians.

Notice I didn't say total Christian population, I compared total Unitarians to total Trinitarians (those that belief in Father, Son, Spirit) and Catholics are Trinitarians. 

[bigbobs]

Notice I didn't say total Christian population, I compared total Unitarians to total Trinitarians (those that belief in Father, Son, Spirit) and Catholics are Trinitarians. 

But you said Catholics are not Chrsitian?  So you're using non-Christians in your statistics when it helps

Anyway my point wasn't the # or percentage of Christians with various beliefs, but the fact that there are various beliefs and confusion over extremely fundamental issues. 

The # of those who identify themselves as "Unitarian" is irrelevant because a) many mainstream christians who do not call themselves "Unitarian" do not believe in the Trinity as you do.

[loco]

Good post loco.  I feel the same way in that I don't judge anyone for their beliefs and you'll probably be surprised by this but my wife is a Christian.  Of course I do intend to bring her to Islam  But that doesn't create any animosity between us and there's no ultimatum given.

I do want to point out one thing which struck out at me from your post.

You said, a) many believe that Jesus is not God, and
b)  The numerous versions of the Bible in numerous languages do not change the main message

Now don't you think that such a significant fundamental disagreement over whether Jesus, the most influential character in the NT, is God or human, is considered as part of the "main message"?  What then is the "main message" if there's disagreement over such a a "main" factor?

Thanks bigbobs!  That's nice, that your wife is a Christian.  Who knows, maybe she will bring your to Christianity.    

What then is the "main message"?

That God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die for ours sins, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, that he ascended into Heaven, and that he will return, that we must follow Jesus and preach this Gospel to all nations.

That is the message, and it is the same across Bible versions and languages.  

By the way, Muslims do have serious disagreements among themselves when it comes to Jesus, about the crucifixion, about his "death" and about his return.  I will start separate threads on this later.

[bigbobs]

Thanks bigbobs!  That's nice, that your wife is a Christian.  Who knows, maybe she will bring your to Christianity.    

What then is the "main message"?

That God sent his Son, Jesus Christ, to die for ours sins, that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, that he ascended into Heaven, and that he will return, that we must follow Jesus and preach this Gospel to all nations.

That is the message, and it is the same across Bible versions and languages.  

By the way, Muslims do have serious disagreements among themselves when it comes to Jesus, about the crucifixion, about his "death" and about his return.  I will start separate threads on this later.

I don't know, that's for you guys to answer.  IMO there is no clear "main message" because the differences in beliefs among Christians are so fundamental.  Something like whether the most significant character in the NT (Jesus) is God or not is infinitely more fundamental than the differences of beliefs within Muslims.  The Quran clearly states that God is one, begets not, nor is he begotten, and clearly states that prophets were the best of men and not divine.  Depending which Christian you ask, you will get a different response as to what the "main message" is.  However, ask any Muslim what the "main message" of Islam is and it's simple and unified - one God, no Trinity, human prophets, our purpose in life is to submit to God, etc.

[a_ahmed]

I am still waiting on that verse that says that God gave up his powers either from OT or NT. 

Because with all due respect MOS, just how you said in the original response of yours to me, how this new fella is saying too, "absolute", "plainest terms", "totally scriptural". You make allegations and absolute statements which actually are not from the bible.

God-man, God giving up powers, etc... this are your own assertions. However you will not find such things in the bible. I still request kindly that you provide me verses stating God gave up his powers.

Otherwise yet again it proves only that your own conjured beliefs are what are driving your interpretation of the bible.

[loco]

I don't know, that's for you guys to answer.  IMO there is no clear "main message" because the differences in beliefs among Christians are so fundamental.  Something like whether the most significant character in the NT (Jesus) is God or not is infinitely more fundamental than the differences of beliefs within Muslims.  The Quran clearly states that God is one, begets not, nor is he begotten, and clearly states that prophets were the best of men and not divine.  Depending which Christian you ask, you will get a different response as to what the "main message" is.  However, ask any Muslim what the "main message" of Islam is and it's simple and unified - one God, no Trinity, human prophets, our purpose in life is to submit to God, etc.

I have noticed a pattern here over time.  Muslims seem to think that the deity of Jesus Christ is the most important thing to Christianity.  Or maybe the most important thing to Muslims is to deny the deity of Jesus Christ.  Muslims may never understand this, but that isn't the most important thing to Christianity.

Just as important is the belief that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to die for our sins, that he rose from the dead, that he will return and that by putting our faith in Jesus Christ, we are saved.

[bigbobs]

I have noticed a pattern here over time.  Muslims seem to think that the deity of Jesus Christ is the most important thing to Christianity.  Or maybe the most important thing to Muslims is to deny the deity of Jesus Christ.  Muslims may never understand this, but that isn't the most important thing to Christianity.

Just as important is the belief that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to die for our sins, that he rose from the dead, that he will return and that by putting our faith in Jesus Christ, we are saved.

I never said Jesus' being God or Human is the most important thing to Christianity, what I said it is it's a fundamental significant issue which is not agreed upon by Christians.

And re: "dying for our sins" that's a whole other topic altogether and something which does not make sense to me and is not something a just God would allow or require.

[loco]

I never said Jesus' being God or Human is the most important thing to Christianity, what I said it is it's a fundamental significant issue which is not agreed upon by Christians.

And re: "dying for our sins" that's a whole other topic altogether and something which does not make sense to me and is not something a just God would allow or require.

I believe you misunderstood me when I said that just because "many" believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God.  Truth is not a Democracy.

When I said many, I did not mean many Christians.  What I meant was that many people, Jews, Muslims, atheists, and Unitarians, do not believe in the deity of Jesus.  That doesn't mean it isn't true.

I still say that I have noticed what's most important to Muslims is denying the deity of Jesus. I only say that based on what I have seen on this board.

[bigbobs]

I believe you misunderstood me when I said that just because "many" believe that Jesus is not God, it does not automatically follow that Jesus isn't God.  Truth is not a Democracy.

When I said many, I did not mean many Christians.  What I meant was that many people, Jews, Muslims, atheists, and Unitarians, do not believe in the deity of Jesus.  That doesn't mean it isn't true.

I still say that I have noticed what's most important to Muslims is denying the deity of Jesus. I only say that based on what I have seen on this board.

I didn't misunderstand.  I did not take your "many believe that Jesus is not God" as evidence that Jesus is not God.  All I meant is that the Christianity has differences in core fundamental beliefs, Islam does not.

[Man of Steel]

I am still waiting on that verse that says that God gave up his powers either from OT or NT.  

Because with all due respect MOS, just how you said in the original response of yours to me, how this new fella is saying too, "absolute", "plainest terms", "totally scriptural". You make allegations and absolute statements which actually are not from the bible.

God-man, God giving up powers, etc... this are your own assertions. However you will not find such things in the bible. I still request kindly that you provide me verses stating God gave up his powers.

Otherwise yet again it proves only that your own conjured beliefs are what are driving your interpretation of the bible.

Well I agree that all of my words are not in the OT or NT and I agree that verses of scripture are more easily interpreted by some than others.  Me personally, I gotta study and study.....always have, probably always will.   Some folks are gifted with discernment by the Holy Spirit, me probably not so much LOL!!  Although, once I put the pieces together topics get seared into my brain.  When I attempt to put things in my own words I don't add things to the scripture, but I concede that sometimes I'm more articulate than at others.  We can make clear inferences and definite conclusions about things in scripture based upon how things were clearly and repeatedly demonstrated.  Honestly, if Christ had said, "I AM GOD!!!  WORSHIP ME!!" it wouldn't have been as effective as were high visible demonstrations of both his humanity and divinity while at the same time forcing people to think about and ponder his words.  I mean, the disciples questioned and repeated things he just said to them over and over.....we're pretty dense as humans LOL.  The disciples were just a pack of dudes, fisherman and laypersons.....they weren't extremely intelligent (well some more than others).  Scripture has required me to read, study, reread, read others books for more understanding, pray, reread again LOL, pray more, read a secondary book from someone smarter than me....ad nauseum.  You know as soon as I wrote "God-man" yesterday I knew y'all would strike at that, but I thought, "hey, it's absolutely true though."

[Man of Steel]

Judaism is a Satanic cult because it rejects Jesus Christ and who is he that is Antichrist but he that denies Jesus? Judaism doesn't even follow the law of God because it rejects its own teaching that Christ is the Messiah. Instead of calling me names I don't even understand or talking illogically why not research the facts more?

Personally, I don't classify Muslims and Jews as Satanic.  Now certainly I agree that any religion that denies Christ is of the antiChrist, but think I that applies to the theology and not the people.  The theology is antiChrist in nature and isn't changing, but people can change.  God loves all of us and desires for everyone of his precious creation to draw close to his will for their lives.  I don't for one minute think ahmed, bigbobs, true, etc....are Satanists or even remotely bad men LOL!   They're all highly intelligent and passionate about their beliefs and I honestly believe they choose mercy and respect and integrity over the more extremist members of Islam that resort to violence and hatred.  I defend them because I belief them to be good men, but unfortunately I can't align myself with the Islamic theology they support.  My heart completely desires for them to accept Christ because I know what absolute powerful witnesses for Christ they could be.....POWERFUL.  Trust me, ahmed, bigbobs, true, loco, myself....we don't always get along LOL (an understatement at times), but I don't think for a minute they align with Satanic qualities even though I do agree that Islam is anti Christ.   Sorry to jump on you like that, but I don't want to see a new board member that's a believer in Christ to assume the worst about the Muslim members of this board....it just ain't so.

[Phillip Rhee]

Personally, I don't classify Muslims and Jews as Satanic.  Now certainly I agree that any religion that denies Christ is of the antiChrist, but think I that applies to the theology and not the people.  The theology is antiChrist in nature and isn't changing, but people can change.  

You are either missing the point or are being deliberately mendacious. Since these false religions are clearly Antichrist in nature as you yourself conceded all adherents thereto must be Satanic as well because that is the creed they have adopted and that is thus a part of them! What you're saying is that just because a devil worshipper/Satanist has Satanic beliefs doesn't mean he's of the devil. Clearly your thinking skills need improving if you still can't see that Muslims and Jews are antichrist/Satanic because that is what they are, deniers of Christ! And who is he that is antichrist that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?