male gymnasts

[Blake]

I'm not sure why you're hung up on defending his position through the use of semantics, as in the case of curls-i read his comments. It's fairly obvious that shifting bodyweight quickly through space requires the rigorous use of all upper body muscles. Apparent to me and I think to others that they are in fact doing curl variations as part of wide ranges of motions.

Fair enough.

[JPM]

One of the prime functions of the bicep is to twist the hand, wrist and forearm  as well as bringing the lower arm in and towards the body (curling towards= rows, up-rows, chins, actual curling, etc). If you punch a heavy bag the correct way or practice martial art fist/palm strikes you will be twisting the arm in it's natural path, which affects the bicep strongly and where you gain the most power. Still rings, high bar, parallel bars, mounting horse and even floor exercises demand much from the biceps in the way of actuall curling (even partial), static holds and negative releases.  Most of the muscle fiber (think of them as little cables, the more muscle stress the more cables are called into action)  becomes much stronger and larger, due not only to the workload put upon it but the increases circulation (better blood supply) which feeds the muscles with a ready supple of freshed nurishment. So gymnast get super strong while also gaining quality muscle mass. Straight arm work will call upon the bicep/tricep's strongly but not to the extent of being responsible for major bicep muscle growth. I can never say that any one is completely wrong about anythig, so prehaps the coach was misqoited and just has a different view on matters.

I've suggest this before quite a few time; using gymnastic rings or the one's that can turn 360 degrees, are a superior way to build outstanding lats because they follow the natural strength curve of a overhead pulling/chinning motion. Much easier on the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. Also one of my better result producing workouts in the past was to SS chins with Dips. Covers just about all the major upper body muscle groups. I have always favored weighted dips over flat or incline presses for chest/delt/arm mass, but that's just how my body respones. Everyone has different results from different methods. Good Luck.

[Blake]

One of the prime functions of the bicep is to twist the hand, wrist and forearm  as well as bringing the lower arm in and towards the body (curling towards= rows, up-rows, chins, actual curling, etc). If you punch a heavy bag the correct way or practice martial art fist/palm strikes you will be twisting the arm in it's natural path, which affects the bicep strongly and where you gain the most power. Still rings, high bar, parallel bars, mounting horse and even floor exercises demand much from the biceps in the way of actuall curling (even partial), static holds and negative releases.  Most of the muscle fiber (think of them as little cables, the more muscle stress the more cables are called into action)  becomes much stronger and larger, due not only to the workload put upon it but the increases circulation (better blood supply) which feeds the muscles with a ready supple of freshed nurishment. So gymnast get super strong while also gaining quality muscle mass. Straight arm work will call upon the bicep/tricep's strongly but not to the extent of being responsible for major bicep muscle growth. I can never say that any one is completely wrong about anythig, so prehaps the coach was misqoited and just has a different view on matters.

I've suggest this before quite a few time; using gymnastic rings or the one's that can turn 360 degrees, are a superior way to build outstanding lats because they follow the natural strength curve of a overhead pulling/chinning motion. Much easier on the wrist, elbow and shoulder joints. Also one of my better result producing workouts in the past was to SS chins with Dips. Covers just about all the major upper body muscle groups. I have always favored weighted dips over flat or incline presses for chest/delt/arm mass, but that's just how my body respones. Everyone has different results from different methods. Good Luck.

Good points, JPM.

I'm also partial to doing very little direct arm training, and believe heavy weighted dips and chin-ups have contributed a good deal to my arm growth over the past couple years.

[braindx]

Whoa guys, straight arm exercises are the basis for building the HIGH strength and mass on the biceps that gymnasts have. None of the apparatus really require any bicep work except rings. All of floor, high bar, parallel bars, pommel horse and vault require that your arms be straighted or pushed which uses the triceps and not biceps at all. Of course, pullups and rope climbs will stimulate growth in the biceps, but not to the extent at which you can make your arms that big and strong as gymnasts have. Coach Sommer definitely knows what he is talking about when he said it is straight arm movements. For example:



Iron Cross. With the cross, you are supposed to rotate your shoulders foward so that your biceps are facing partly down which, in a straight arm movement will stress the biceps big time. Just think, if you're doing preacher curls how hard it is to do them going with your arms all the way to straight. Imagine holding half your bodyweight with a straight arm.



Planche/straddle planche. Straight arm bicep work. About 50% of your weight depending on the lever angle of the user's planche. So 25% of your weight each arm.



Maltese (half your bodyweight straight arm position in each arm)



Inverted cross (half bodyweight also).

Yeah, there really are no bent arm movements in gymnastics that require biceps. Straight arm movements and training up to them are developing gymnasts biceps alone.

[loco]

Do gymnasts lift weights?  I don't know, but during the 90s Olympic games in the US, I was working out at the gym at a university.  I looked around and I saw about 5 guys working out with their shirts off.  They all looked similar, about same height and same build.  They looked like smaller versions of Lee Priest, with very impressive physiques.  Soon after that, they all put their shirts and jackets back on and left.  The jackets said Ukraine on the back.  After I was done with my workout, I walked by the indoor basketball court, which was filled with gymnastics equipment that day.  I saw those guys and some girls practicing gymnastics.  They were the Ukraine Olympic gymnastics team.  Of course, this does not mean that they built those physiques by lifting weights, but they do lift weights, at least some.

[onlyme]

Very inmporatnt with the Iron Cross is that your wrists are slightly bent.  To many people when they first try the Cross with no coaching try to do it with straight wrists and get discouraged when they can't do it.  This slight bent helps a whole lot.

And in most of the gymnastics events (parrallel bars, high bar, rings, even the horse) you are judged by how straight you can keep your arms.  Bending your arms get mark downs

[pumpster]

straight arm exercises are the basis for building the HIGH strength and mass on the biceps that gymnasts have.

They're but one factor. Curl-type motions are used frequently in transitioning between various ring positions and are at least as intense. Static holds in various curl positions are another huge one.

[braindx]

They're but one factor. Curl-type motions are used frequently in transitioning between various ring positions and are at least as intense. Static holds in various curl positions are another huge one.

No, not really. It is all straight arm work.

Case in point:

Jordan Jovtchev's Rings at the Olympics (about 9 mb).

[pumpster]

Blah, blah. Of course all muscles are used through a variety of angles; it's not based just on one particular motion like crosses. Common sense man.

[romeo]

how do i replicate those movements in the gym? pull ups and dips?

[JPM]

Have to agree with Pumpster, most muscle groups are called upon through a variety of angles in any movement, an opposite muscle will always be involved on some level. . Your using biceps when pressing by the simple fact that it's in accord with stablelizing the bar throughout the pressing and the biceps also aid's when lowering the bar. And anyone doing a still ring or high bar routine are going from one position to another, which will involve the triceps/biceps almost like a giant SS. Any one ever done a heavy straight arm pullover can feel the affect on the biceps as well as the triceps. With the above movements your also going to get a terrific ab & lower back workout.

If you want to replicate the gymnastic movements than do what they do, chins & dips using many different hand positions in the workout. Can also try straight arm pullovers & DB flys (which can be felt strongly in the biceps). I've suggested this delt movement before; press a pair of light DB overhead than lower them slowly (negative) to the sides as if you were doing a reverse laterial raise. Try for 10-12 reps, can be a killer for the whole shoulder girdle. Warm-up very well before doing these press/laterials. Good Luck.

[braindx]

If you guys insist  . I'm just going by what I know because I am actually training these movements, and it is the straight arm work that is building the biceps, not any bent arm movements. Heck, the only bent arm stuff I do on rings would be a press to handstand, and that is all triceps. A stabilizer might be the biceps, but it is not worked enough to stimulate any growth at all. The biceps are only used extensively on rings in the straight arm position and that is the only thing that has given me any growth at all for them. Hate to break it to you, but I think experience here is the key to actually knowing what is going on.

BTW JPM, high bar requires virtually no strength at all. I don't know where you are getting that it requires a lot from. Heck, pbars and pommel horse don't even require that much strength besides in the deltoids.

[JPM]

Braindx: Don't recall saying that the high bar programs required a lot of strength only. Parallel bar,still rings, the horse, ect require stamina (endurance & strength), that I will say, as does the high bar. Static contraction and negative movements play an important role, which I also stated.  All these affects go towards building bicep/tricep/ delts or whatever muscle groups are recuited in gymstics. Good Luck.

[braindx]

I still disagree... and the reason for that is because most competitive gymnastics programs that require the kids to be there 15-20 hours a week and elite programs where you are there anywhere from 25-35 hours per week have their kids/gymnasts spending about 1/5 of that time conditioning and doing strength training. The actually apparatus themselves don't require much strength at all besides still rings. When I was training competitively for 4.5 hours for 4-5 times a week at least the last hour of every practice was spent on conditioning and strength training. I don't see why if the apparatus themselves required so much strength that we would spend that amount of time on strength and conditioning. If what you say is true, we should have overtrained MANY times over and we did not. Most of gymnastics skills are more about technique than strength. Heck, practiaclly all of high bar is technique. There really is no strength required there.

[onlyme]

The high bar takes an incredible amount of hand strength.  The g-force generated is tremendous, so forearms are very important.  Abs and all round core strength is a must in the bars and all events.  The only time biceps are used on the rings is at the start.  The idea of the "still" rings is to do as much with as little ring movement as possible (forward and back). We used to do allot of isometrics to train too.

[JPM]

Braindx...Bud....no offence but your talking in circles. If you don't see the connection between technique and strength training than it would be beyond me to try to explain it to you. The idea of overtraining never came up, which for that level of adaptability is a mute point. So I guess I'll just let you disagree with me. Good Luck.