us citizens sold out

[Radical Plato]

Goddamn, you're one negative, miserable person.  I truly don't know what else to say.  I really don't know how you can ever succeed in life with your attitude.  You seem to think that everythign is predetermined, and that we have no control over our lives.    I wish you the best though.

I don't really know what you mean by success in life, the majority of people you would consider successful, I Imagine I would see as Life's losers, serfs who have sold out to help some corporate master live his dream at the expense of theirs.  As for me I have found a way to utilise my time the way I want and still have all the resources I ever dreamed of.   And seeing reality for what it is is not miserable, it just indicates an intellectual honest mindset, and I didn't say we have no control but limited control over our lives.  If people had control over their lives, why would they choose to be raped, beaten or shot or to get cancer or any other number of crappy things happen to them.  The fact is, we have very little control over what happens to us, if people have avoided these crappy things, it is not because of anything they have done, it is called good fortune.  Too many people take good fortune and claim it as their own doing.

You seem to have an unrealistic optimistic mindset, perhaps the result of reading too many New Age books.  I had to laugh because recently their was a study done on some older people, and they discovered the pessimists outlived the optimists, mainly because they had a more realistic appraisal of things and took the necessary precautions.  Too often I think people force themselves to be optimistic as a way of avoiding reality and warding of some grief within their lives.  For some reason people expect to be happy, not realising that the middle ground is the most desirable.  Like abject misery, extreme happiness or optimism is dangerous and to be avoided.

[The True Adonis]

I don't really know what you mean by success in life, the majority of people you would consider successful, I Imagine I would see as Life's losers, serfs who have sold out to help some corporate master live his dream at the expense of theirs.  As for me I have found a way to utilise my time the way I want and still have all the resources I ever dreamed of.   And seeing reality for what it is is not miserable, it just indicates an intellectual honest mindset, and I didn't say we have no control but limited control over our lives.  If people had control over their lives, why would they choose to be raped, beaten or shot or to get cancer or any other number of crappy things happen to them.  The fact is, we have very little control over what happens to us, if people have avoided these crappy things, it is not because of anything they have done, it is called good fortune.  Too many people take good fortune and claim it as their own doing.

You seem to have an unrealistic optimistic mindset, perhaps the result of reading too many New Age books.  I had to laugh because recently their was a study done on some older people, and they discovered the pessimists outlived the optimists, mainly because they had a more realistic appraisal of things and took the necessary precautions.  Too often I think people force themselves to be optimistic as a way of avoiding reality and warding of some grief within their lives.  For some reason people expect to be happy, not realising that the middle ground is the most desirable.  Like abject misery, extreme happiness or optimism is dangerous and to be avoided.

Let me remind you of the famous words of a promiscuous man who, in 1993 stood beside an Ice Machine outside Room 7 at the Mirage Hotel and declared, "Sometimes you get the elevator, sometimes you get the shaft".

[Twaddle]

I don't really know what you mean by success in life, the majority of people you would consider successful, I Imagine I would see as Life's losers, serfs who have sold out to help some corporate master live his dream at the expense of theirs.  As for me I have found a way to utilise my time the way I want and still have all the resources I ever dreamed of.   And seeing reality for what it is is not miserable, it just indicates an intellectual honest mindset, and I didn't say we have no control but limited control over our lives.  If people had control over their lives, why would they choose to be raped, beaten or shot or to get cancer or any other number of crappy things happen to them.  The fact is, we have very little control over what happens to us, if people have avoided these crappy things, it is not because of anything they have done, it is called good fortune.  Too many people take good fortune and claim it as their own doing.

You seem to have an unrealistic optimistic mindset, perhaps the result of reading too many New Age books.  I had to laugh because recently their was a study done on some older people, and they discovered the pessimists outlived the optimists, mainly because they had a more realistic appraisal of things and took the necessary precautions.  Too often I think people force themselves to be optimistic as a way of avoiding reality and warding of some grief within their lives.  For some reason people expect to be happy, not realising that the middle ground is the most desirable.  Like abject misery, extreme happiness or optimism is dangerous and to be avoided.

What you call optomism, I call realism.  I grab the bull by the horns, and I take it for a ride.  I control my life, and my life has only improved, and will only continue to improve.  HTH.

PS, when do you want to go shoot?   

[Radical Plato]

What you call optomism, I call realism.  I grab the bull by the horns, and I take it for a ride.  I control my life, and my life has only improved, and will only continue to improve.  HTH.

PS, when do you want to go shoot?  

That's cool man, I actually like you and am glad your life is fulfilling.  If I ever come to America, which I doubt, I would consider shooting guns at a range, but to tell the truth, I don't feel any compulsion too, not because of my views on the Gun issue, it is just something that doesn't appeal to me.  No different if someone invited my to try lawn bowls or badminton., I love where I live now, I truly do, and feel little to no compulsion to travel.  it is a beautiful part of the world and close to a bush mountain range which I enjoy regular trail walks in.

[The True Adonis]

I don't really know what you mean by success in life, the majority of people you would consider successful, I Imagine I would see as Life's losers, serfs who have sold out to help some corporate master live his dream at the expense of theirs.  As for me I have found a way to utilise my time the way I want and still have all the resources I ever dreamed of.   And seeing reality for what it is is not miserable, it just indicates an intellectual honest mindset, and I didn't say we have no control but limited control over our lives.  If people had control over their lives, why would they choose to be raped, beaten or shot or to get cancer or any other number of crappy things happen to them.  The fact is, we have very little control over what happens to us, if people have avoided these crappy things, it is not because of anything they have done, it is called good fortune.  Too many people take good fortune and claim it as their own doing.

You seem to have an unrealistic optimistic mindset, perhaps the result of reading too many New Age books.  I had to laugh because recently their was a study done on some older people, and they discovered the pessimists outlived the optimists, mainly because they had a more realistic appraisal of things and took the necessary precautions.  Too often I think people force themselves to be optimistic as a way of avoiding reality and warding of some grief within their lives.  For some reason people expect to be happy, not realising that the middle ground is the most desirable.  Like abject misery, extreme happiness or optimism is dangerous and to be avoided.

This is relevant.

[V Man]

What I am reading in this thread is that people are equating Freedom = having $ or more opportunities to make money. I actually think the opposite is true, the quest for wealth and money usually makes you a slave to the mechanism that gives it to you.

What people have more freedom than the united states (or any other "free" country for that matter)? Well, for starters, the tribes that live in the Brazilian rain forests, completely separated from civilization. They don't have social security numbers, don't have to pay taxes or bank fees, don't have a boss they have to obey or a job that dictates what time they have to be there at. They get food, water, and shelter from the land and don't have to pay anybody for it. May not be fancy but it's all they need. Once they have food for the day, they can do whatever the fuck they want.

Just think about it, the whole reason this (North America) became known as the "Free World" was because when people started coming here from Europe, there was no government, or very little. People came to escape the oppression and high taxes they were being charged with by the Monarchies in Europe. They came here, built their homes from scratch, and worked the land for food. To them that was freedom, even though they had no money. Since then, this has always been known as the free world, and we have been brainwashed from a young age into thinking "We are so lucky to live in a free country", and blindly believing that it is terrible to live in any other part of the world.

Imagine a country where a civilian, is told he must fight in a war he doesn't believe in, and if he refuses is sent to prison....but of course that wouldn't happen in a free country like the US. Tell that to Muhammad Ali.

So you feel that because you make good money and have a good living that equals freedom? Think about it. The government, the IRS, the bank, your employer, all basically have you by the balls. Still feel free?

[Radical Plato]

Good Post - I remember when I was growing up, their was a definite optimism, a subtle promise of in the not to distant future that technology would take over, make shitty work redundant, there would be a shorter work week and far more leisure time with plenty of the necessary resources to go around.  I guess the Elites didn't like that idea !

[deviant]

What I am reading in this thread is that people are equating Freedom = having $ or more opportunities to make money. I actually think the opposite is true, the quest for wealth and money usually makes you a slave to the mechanism that gives it to you.

What people have more freedom than the united states (or any other "free" country for that matter)? Well, for starters, the tribes that live in the Brazilian rain forests, completely separated from civilization. They don't have social security numbers, don't have to pay taxes or bank fees, don't have a boss they have to obey or a job that dictates what time they have to be there at. They get food, water, and shelter from the land and don't have to pay anybody for it. May not be fancy but it's all they need. Once they have food for the day, they can do whatever the fuck they want.

Just think about it, the whole reason this (North America) became known as the "Free World" was because when people started coming here from Europe, there was no government, or very little. People came to escape the oppression and high taxes they were being charged with by the Monarchies in Europe. They came here, built their homes from scratch, and worked the land for food. To them that was freedom, even though they had no money. Since then, this has always been known as the free world, and we have been brainwashed from a young age into thinking "We are so lucky to live in a free country", and blindly believing that it is terrible to live in any other part of the world.

Imagine a country where a civilian, is told he must fight in a war he doesn't believe in, and if he refuses is sent to prison....but of course that wouldn't happen in a free country like the US. Tell that to Muhammad Ali.

So you feel that because you make good money and have a good living that equals freedom? Think about it. The government, the IRS, the bank, your employer, all basically have you by the balls. Still feel free?

Good post.

As you said, the western world has now developed to the point that you are expected to get a job and your taxes will be required to pay for government projects....opting out is not an option unless you enjoy being on the receiving end of state handouts.

What people in first world countries actually enjoy is the perception of freedom....give somebody an uncensored internet, a car on the driveway and a vote every few years and people are mostly happy to accept this form of freedom.

All the time a government (democratically elected or otherwise) can call the shots and fuck about with people's lives then an individual isnt truly free.

[Radical Plato]

Good post.

As you said, the western world has now developed to the point that you are expected to get a job and your taxes will be required to pay for government projects....opting out is not an option unless you enjoy being on the receiving end of state handouts.

What people in first world countries actually enjoy is the perception of freedom....give somebody an uncensored internet, a car on the driveway and a vote every few years and people are mostly happy to accept this form of freedom.

All the time a government (democratically elected or otherwise) can call the shots and fuck about with people's lives then an individual isnt truly free.

If you really think about it, humans have gradually moved from a truly free state of being to slowly becoming enslaved by a so called civilised system.  Many indigenous cultures had more freedom than we currently do, and they had plenty of time left over for art, music and dance.  I suppose the trade off is we have better health and medical, stable access to clean drinking water and arguably better food management.  If we can only get our time back and still have a roof over our head, food, water and medicine we might be onto something, but I can't see how the system is going to change from here on out, unless their is a catalyst like world war, economic collapse or natural disaster, I think we are stuck with this rigid system that locks you into a narrow state of existence.

[syntaxmachine]

The state and society gave me exactly what is given to everyone else.  Nothing less, nothing more.  What you do with it is up to you.

The goalposts, they are a-changin'.

My post pertained solely to your claim that you weren't given anything that helped you succeed. But what you've said above is certainly false as well, and trivially so: a Romney type who gets an elite, private primary education, free JD/MBA degrees from the Ivy League, and networking opportunities with some of the nation's premier governmental and economic elites from the get-go is not provided the same opportunities as most.

By asserting this I'm not thereby negating the role that personal, psychological factors have to play in determining a person's level of success; I'm simply saying that much, much else besides these factors contribute as well.

[Twaddle]

The goalposts, they are a-changin'.

My post pertained solely to your claim that you weren't given anything that helped you succeed. But what you've said above is certainly false as well, and trivially so: a Romney type who gets an elite, private primary education, free JD/MBA degrees from the Ivy League, and networking opportunities with some of the nation's premier governmental and economic elites from the get-go is not provided the same opportunities as most.

By asserting this I'm not thereby negating the role that personal, psychological factors have to play in determining a person's level of success; I'm simply saying that much, much else besides these factors contribute as well.

And what is stopping any one individual from achieving those same things you just mentioned?  Absolutely nothing.  If a person desires it bad enough, they can achieve the exact same things as a rich kid born with a silver spoon in his mouth.  They will certainly have to work harder, but that is beside the point. 

[The True Adonis]

What I am reading in this thread is that people are equating Freedom = having $ or more opportunities to make money. I actually think the opposite is true, the quest for wealth and money usually makes you a slave to the mechanism that gives it to you.

What people have more freedom than the united states (or any other "free" country for that matter)? Well, for starters, the tribes that live in the Brazilian rain forests, completely separated from civilization. They don't have social security numbers, don't have to pay taxes or bank fees, don't have a boss they have to obey or a job that dictates what time they have to be there at. They get food, water, and shelter from the land and don't have to pay anybody for it. May not be fancy but it's all they need. Once they have food for the day, they can do whatever the fuck they want.

Just think about it, the whole reason this (North America) became known as the "Free World" was because when people started coming here from Europe, there was no government, or very little. People came to escape the oppression and high taxes they were being charged with by the Monarchies in Europe. They came here, built their homes from scratch, and worked the land for food. To them that was freedom, even though they had no money. Since then, this has always been known as the free world, and we have been brainwashed from a young age into thinking "We are so lucky to live in a free country", and blindly believing that it is terrible to live in any other part of the world.

Imagine a country where a civilian, is told he must fight in a war he doesn't believe in, and if he refuses is sent to prison....but of course that wouldn't happen in a free country like the US. Tell that to Muhammad Ali.

So you feel that because you make good money and have a good living that equals freedom? Think about it. The government, the IRS, the bank, your employer, all basically have you by the balls. Still feel free?

Go live in the forest then in Brazilian rain forest.  What is stopping you?  I KNOW you would not last long.

[V Man]

Go live in the forest then in Brazilian rain forest.  What is stopping you?  I KNOW you would not last long.

I didn't say I wanted to live in the rain forest, but lets say I did. You asked what is stopping me? Well, because of governmental restrictions (around the world), I can't just get up and fly to another country to live there...I have to apply for a visa. Now, I've never gone through the process before, but I know it isn't a simple and easy process. The country you are applying to go to has a bunch of rules and qualifications you have to satisfy before they will grant you permanent residency. So, imagine when they ask what I plan to do in their country and I say, "Well, I want to live in the rain forest, live off the land and not work or pay taxes." Do you honestly think they will just say Ok and let me in? lol

And even if they did allow me to do that....I would still be a citizen of my native country, and THEY would still expect me to file a tax return every year. So, after a year of living in the rain forest and not earning a single dime....I file a tax return showing I earned $0. What do you think will happen then?? Well I am damn sure they are gonna have questions for me....so guess what....now they're auditing me! LOL...face it we are all just property of the government.

[cephissus]

And what is stopping any one individual from achieving those same things you just mentioned?  Absolutely nothing.  If a person desires it bad enough, they can achieve the exact same things as a rich kid born with a silver spoon in his mouth.  They will certainly have to work harder, but that is beside the point.  

it's easy to say anyone can overcome some obstacle, because to "disprove" that claim seems almost impossible.  but could your average street rat really obtain all these things if they simply "desire it bad enough"?

this leads to another problem for anyone willing to dispute your claim, how can someone's desire be measured?  if we could somehow obtain a distribution of "life achievement" scores for each impoverished soul, no doubt individuals obtaining romney-esque scores would be one the extreme tail end of the curve.  you could just say, "welp, none of the others desired it bad enough."  is there any evidence for such a claim, though?  i think common sense, at least, is not on your side... why would only say, .00001% of vagrants have "strong desire" when, if "desire = achievement", a much higher percentage of rich persons possess this kind of willpower.

And is willpower independent from any societal effect, as you seem to think?  Does being raised in a harsh, depressing, even downright hostile environment have no effect on one's desire to succeed?  If it has a negative effect, then you'll just say, "well that's why someone REALLY has to want it bad when they come 'from circumstances'", but then you've just admitted that society doesn't treat everyone equal, and there are indeed forces which inhibit someone's "freedom to achieve".

[The True Adonis]

I didn't say I wanted to live in the rain forest, but lets say I did. You asked what is stopping me? Well, because of governmental restrictions (around the world), I can't just get up and fly to another country to live there...I have to apply for a visa. Now, I've never gone through the process before, but I know it isn't a simple and easy process. The country you are applying to go to has a bunch of rules and qualifications you have to satisfy before they will grant you permanent residency. So, imagine when they ask what I plan to do in their country and I say, "Well, I want to live in the rain forest, live off the land and not work or pay taxes." Do you honestly think they will just say Ok and let me in? lol

And even if they did allow me to do that....I would still be a citizen of my native country, and THEY would still expect me to file a tax return every year. So, after a year of living in the rain forest and not earning a single dime....I file a tax return showing I earned $0. What do you think will happen then?? Well I am damn sure they are gonna have questions for me....so guess what....now they're auditing me! LOL...face it we are all just property of the government.

Excuses, Excuses...

[ukjeff]

the movie american psycho is a hommage to whatd happen if everyone was rich btw.theres a message in there

I think the message in that movie was that nothing actually happened, it was all in his mind.

[The True Adonis]

[Slapper]

I would bet my left nut most of you would not survive outside the US.

[The True Adonis]

I would bet my left nut most of you would not survive outside the US.

Why would we want to? 

[HTexan]

Why would we want to? 

zing

[TigerStripes]

I would bet my left nut most of you would not survive outside the US.

surviving in the US is actually more difficult than many other countries if you are low on money.

If you are broke, the USA is actually a pretty harsh place.

[Radical Plato]

freedom or liberty.

what do ppl want, i think many confuse these 2 things.

the movie american psycho is a hommage to whatd happen if everyone was rich btw.theres a message in there

I think the message in that movie was that nothing actually happened, it was all in his mind.

I thought the movie was highlighting the inherent danger in excessive self interest like that displayed by the average serious bodybuilder.  Excessive narcissism is encouraged in today's culture, thus increasing the conflict we have with others.

[Radical Plato]

I would bet my left nut most of you would not survive outside the US.

I have no doubt that they would THRIVE in a place like Australia.  Australia must be one of the easiest places in the world to survive.  We have outstanding health and welfare systems and as a Nation are incredibly tolerant of others.

[RRKore]

Great thread. E-Kul speaks the truth.

Those of you who are honestly having a hard time understanding why some of us don't like how the current system makes losers of so many might want to see this video:

[Natural Man]

USA were known as the land of freedom, because you had the freedom to work harder than others and earn what you deserved as a result, while in others countries you would have had to share it with others socialists/communists. Toughest europeans killed indians and developped industries from nothing. This was their only "freedom". Freedom nowadays equals "doing nothing and playing video games, watching tv and porn all life long without having to work" for youths, well, youths raised by...single mothers.

Obviously they dont understand what they re talking about when they use the word "freedom". Freedom to create, dominate, is earned, not given. Nothing is free, and working gives you the freedom to buy others and enslave them instead of being enslaved by them.