Author Topic: Federal judge rules morning-after pill must be available for women of all ages  (Read 16095 times)

Archer77

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No that's not what I'm saying at all. And parental consent laws would do nothing to prevent the above scenario. If a pedophile teacher were having sex with his 9 yr old students, he could STILL make a MAP available to the 9 yr old even with parental consent laws in place.

There are laws against marijuana, heroin, crystal meth, crack etc.... yet those are still available are they not?

I think your argument is rubbish. make it illegal... yah, ...that'll stop it. ::)  ::)

Let's have no laws then.  If people are doing to kill or rob other people, what's the point in making laws?  The point is, that a child should not have access to potentially dangerous medications without someone being made aware.
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Archer77

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From the time she finds out, and the time she tells you is seconds?  YOU ARE DREAMING!

I understand what you want, and why you want it, ...but legislation isn't going to make that happen.

My point is that there is a law already in place that makes this situation easy to resolve, the age of consent law.  No need to further legislate.
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bears

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It's NOT an abortion pill.



whatever it is.  its a resource to hide evidence of a crime.  i'm not against the pill at all.  i'm not even against an abortion pill.  what i am against is this new obsession with making abortions as easy as possible for children to get without theit parents knowing.

tu_holmes

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whatever it is.  its a resource to hide evidence of a crime.  i'm not against the pill at all.  i'm not even against an abortion pill.  what i am against is this new obsession with making abortions as easy as possible for children to get without theit parents knowing.

I do see your point... When you make things easy, people use it to their advantage and that can definitely be negative.

What should the age be then?

I've seen archer say age of consent... But I do know girls who were having sex at 12... They certainly were not telling their parents.

24KT

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whatever it is.  its a resource to hide evidence of a crime.

So is a shower.

Quote
 i'm not against the pill at all.  i'm not even against an abortion pill.  what i am against is this new obsession with making abortions as easy as possible for children to get without theit parents knowing.

What does easy access to abortion have to do with contraception. Seems to me more availability of contraception would reduce the numbers of abortions, wouldn't you agree?
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avxo

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I would let them purchase the condoms no questions asked.  The main difference being condoms are not medicine that is ingested with potential side effects to anyone other than those with a latex allergy.  My point isn't even a moral one necessarily ot an objection to the use of the morning after pill itself.

That's a very reasonable answer. I think that we are more or less on the same page, and yes, ideally I think that parents should have a say in their children's lives - and most of us would agree on that I suspect. However, as I noted in my post (edited after your answer) we don't live in an idea world. And that's why I think that the benefits of making the pill available without parental notification outweigh the risks.

There's also a distinction between parental notification and parental consent. Where do you stand on that issue?

avxo

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whatever it is.  its a resource to hide evidence of a crime.  i'm not against the pill at all.  i'm not even against an abortion pill.  what i am against is this new obsession with making abortions as easy as possible for children to get without theit parents knowing.

Evidence of a crime?!? Really?

Archer77

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I do see your point... When you make things easy, people use it to their advantage and that can definitely be negative.

What should the age be then?

I've seen archer say age of consent... But I do know girls who were having sex at 12... They certainly were not telling their parents.

And kids drink before they are twent-one and dont tell their parents  It happens. I did it. The law clearly states what it thinks is the acceptable age for consenting to sexual activity.  Will people have sex before that age, of course, but the law serves as a guide post.  Anyone, regardless of whether the underage girl consented, and we can argue all day about whether they are capable of truely consenting, can be prosecuted for engaging in sexual activity with a minor.  

Anytime an underage girl purchases the morning after pill there is a possibility that, under the law, a crime might have occurred. This is why it is vital that someone be notified if a minor purchases the MAP.  Notification is already a requirement for other things.Here is an example I think is appropriate.  When a child comes to school with unsual or habitual injuries it is the obligation of the school to contact authorities in case abuse is being perpetrated against that child.    
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bears

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I do see your point... When you make things easy, people use it to their advantage and that can definitely be negative.

What should the age be then?

I've seen archer say age of consent... But I do know girls who were having sex at 12... They certainly were not telling their parents.

when it comes to issues like this, there is no good answer. as long as two people who don't love eachother are having sex with eachother, nothing good comes out of it.  thats a hard truth that i personally had to learn.  my generation has always preached the idea of treating sex lightly.  it's all a lie.  and we are facing the consequences of our actions today.  and so far our only answer has been abortion. abortion, abortion.  and its not working.

i have 2 boys.  and i don't know how i am going to teach them to respect women and to not take sex lightly when eveyone else around them is doing the opposite.  it's going to be a hard road.  but my only weapons are to stand on principal and to be honest to a fault with them.

bears

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So is a shower.

What does easy access to abortion have to do with contraception. Seems to me more availability of contraception would reduce the numbers of abortions, wouldn't you agree?

yeah but it doesn't.  people don't fuck chicks without condoms because they can't find condoms.  people fuck chicks without condoms because they don't like to use condoms. 

sorry.  but thats a hard truth that they don't tell you on tv because people don't like to hear it.  because it reminds people that they are accountable for where they put their penis and what they allow in their pussy.  most people nowadays would rather blame someone else for their sons and daughters irreponsible decisions.

"It's not your faulty honey, the repubicans won't give out enough condoms".  You know because its so hard to get condoms.  ::)

avxo

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yeah but it doesn't.  people don't fuck chicks without condoms because they can't find condoms.  people fuck chicks without condoms because they don't like to use condoms.

Who are you to speak on behalf of all people who fuck chicks without a condom?

It's also quite disingenuous to pretend as if the only time problems can happen is when people consciously choose to fuck without using condoms. No method of birth control (note: abstinence is not a form of birth control) is 100% reliable.

Dos Equis

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Is it your position that a 13-year old who becomes pregnant should be required to keep the child if her parents so desire? In other words, do you believe that a 13-year old pregnant woman should be forced to carry a child to term against her wishes? If so, do you realize that you are treating 13-year olds as incubation chambers?


Yes.  
Yes.
No.

I'm in favor of the broader principle of a parent making decisions on behalf of their minor children, which they do with medicine, medical treatment, school, religion, food, clothes, language, etc., etc.  

Dos Equis

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yeah but it doesn't.  people don't fuck chicks without condoms because they can't find condoms.  people fuck chicks without condoms because they don't like to use condoms. 

sorry.  but thats a hard truth that they don't tell you on tv because people don't like to hear it.  because it reminds people that they are accountable for where they put their penis and what they allow in their pussy.  most people nowadays would rather blame someone else for their sons and daughters irreponsible decisions.

"It's not your faulty honey, the repubicans won't give out enough condoms".  You know because its so hard to get condoms.  ::)

Exactly.  That's why I say they don't work, because people (especially young people) will not consistently use them. 

bears

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Who are you to speak on behalf of all people who fuck chicks without a condom?

It's also quite disingenuous to pretend as if the only time problems can happen is when people consciously choose to fuck without using condoms. No method of birth control (note: abstinence is not a form of birth control) is 100% reliable.


stop it.  you're living in a dream world.  i'm speaking the truth and you don't like to hear it.  

let's put it this way.  if everyone used condoms or responsibly took their birth control we wouldn't have 1.2 million abortions per year in the US.  we would have something closer to 50,000.  you're buying into the liberal left bullshit where abortion isn't about personal responsibility, it's about access to birth control.  do you honestly think that most of the 1.2 million abortions in the US last year were because the people were using birth control and it failed?  sorry but if you think that you're either fucking stupid or a virgin who doesn't know how sex works.



bears

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Exactly.  That's why I say they don't work, because people (especially young people) will not consistently use them. 

like i said before people don't want to believe that this is an issue of personal responsibility.

bears

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Yes.  
Yes.
No.

I'm in favor of the broader principle of a parent making decisions on behalf of their minor children, which they do with medicine, medical treatment, school, religion, food, clothes, language, etc., etc.  

but to axvo and hard left liberals,  abortion is NEVER the wrong choice.  its ALWAYS the right choice.

Dos Equis

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but to axvo and hard left liberals,  abortion is NEVER the wrong choice.  its ALWAYS the right choice.

At any stage before birth, and in some instances after birth. 

Dos Equis

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like i said before people don't want to believe that this is an issue of personal responsibility.

It absolutely is.  It's not about access/availability.  Condoms are everywhere. 

avxo

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but to axvo and hard left liberals,  abortion is NEVER the wrong choice.  its ALWAYS the right choice.

I'm a hard left liberal? Really? Damn...

The weird thing about being a libertarian is that the nutjobs from the left call me a far-right loonie and the nutjobs from the right call me a far-left loonie.

Archer77

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I'm a hard left liberal? Really? Damn...

The weird thing about being a libertarian is that the nutjobs from the left call me a far-right loonie and the nutjobs from the right call me a far-left loonie.

I've had a similar problem here.
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avxo

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stop it.  you're living in a dream world.  i'm speaking the truth and you don't like to hear it.

If by "truth" you mean "feces" and if by "speak" you mean "flinging" then yes, you speak the truth.
 

let's put it this way.  if everyone used condoms or responsibly took their birth control we wouldn't have 1.2 million abortions per year in the US.

And if pigs flew... something something!


we would have something closer to 50,000.

And you'd still be bitching and moaning even then. Also, I'm not going to ask how you reached that number because I don't want to have to hear about any part of your anatomy.


you're buying into the liberal left bullshit where abortion isn't about personal responsibility, it's about access to birth control.

It's always about personal responsibility - even if birth control measures fail it's still about personal responsibility. And sometimes, being responsible means getting an abortion. You may not like that, and you may feel it's wrong but the fact is that your feelings have no bearing on reality.


do you honestly think that most of the 1.2 million abortions in the US last year were because the people were using birth control and it failed?

I'm not interested whether it's the result of failed birth control or a stupid decision, because to me it's largely irrelevant. And since I have not metrics that I can use to ascertain the reason behind abortions or analyze how many are the result of condom failure vs. missed birth control pills vs. bareback encounters I will avoid drawing conclusions like you have.


sorry but if you think that you're either fucking stupid or a virgin who doesn't know how sex works.

Perhaps - but only if I thought that. Since I don't, your petty insults don't apply.

avxo

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Yes.  

You believe that a 13-year old woman should be required to function as an incubator for 9 months? That's... extraordinary! And tell me, what then? Should the 13-year old have any say on what happens to the resulting baby, or should her parents be able to just put it up for adoption


Yes.

It's amazing to see someone in this day and age arguing that someone should be compelled, against their wishes, to carry a pregnancy to term.


No.

What, exactly, are you treating them as then?


I'm in favor of the broader principle of a parent making decisions on behalf of their minor children, which they do with medicine, medical treatment, school, religion, food, clothes, language, etc., etc.  

While I am in favor of that principle as well, I don't think that parents should be able to force their minor children to continue pregnancies to term against the child's express wishes.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of broader principles, are you only in favor of that broader principle when the decisions parents make are ones you approve of, or would you support a parent's right to decide his pregnant 13-year old daughter must have an abortion (perhaps against her will)?

Dos Equis

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You believe that a 13-year old woman should be required to function as an incubator for 9 months? That's... extraordinary! And tell me, what then? Should the 13-year old have any say on what happens to the resulting baby, or should her parents be able to just put it up for adoption


It's amazing to see someone in this day and age arguing that someone should be compelled, against their wishes, to carry a pregnancy to term.


What, exactly, are you treating them as then?


While I am in favor of that principle as well, I don't think that parents should be able to force their minor children to continue pregnancies to term against the child's express wishes.

Oh, and while we're on the subject of broader principles, are you only in favor of that broader principle when the decisions parents make are ones you approve of, or would you support a parent's right to decide his pregnant 13-year old daughter must have an abortion (perhaps against her will)?


A 13-year-old girl is not a "woman."  She's a girl.  A kid.  More importantly, according to society she's a minor who is unable to make any life-changing decisions on her own without parental (or guardian) consent, including obtaining prescription medication, driving a car, going to the doctor, going to the dentist, buying alcohol, buying cigarettes, deciding whether or not to have surgery, deciding whether to be a Mormon, Muslim, or Catholic, etc., etc.  I don't see a decision regarding what should be prescription medication for an abortion pill or a medical decision to have an abortion as any different. 

I'm in favor of the broader principle as it applies to all legal decisions regarding the minor child, which of course would include abortion.

It simply defies common sense to start drawing arbitrary lines for kids and allow them to make adult decisions in situations like this.  What's outrageous too is it may help cover up a crime.  A 13-year-old girl cannot consent to sex, so any 13-year-old girl who is pregnant is a victim.  Her parents should know.  Law enforcement should know.     

bears

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If by "truth" you mean "feces" and if by "speak" you mean "flinging" then yes, you speak the truth.
 

And if pigs flew... something something!


And you'd still be bitching and moaning even then. Also, I'm not going to ask how you reached that number because I don't want to have to hear about any part of your anatomy.


It's always about personal responsibility - even if birth control measures fail it's still about personal responsibility. And sometimes, being responsible means getting an abortion. You may not like that, and you may feel it's wrong but the fact is that your feelings have no bearing on reality.


I'm not interested whether it's the result of failed birth control or a stupid decision, because to me it's largely irrelevant. And since I have not metrics that I can use to ascertain the reason behind abortions or analyze how many are the result of condom failure vs. missed birth control pills vs. bareback encounters I will avoid drawing conclusions like you have.


Perhaps - but only if I thought that. Since I don't, your petty insults don't apply.

first off i'm not against abortion.  i don't harshly judge people who have had abortions.  but i do believe that our end goal should be to have as few of them as possible.  that is, we should strive to miminimize as much as we can, unwanted pregnancies.  i do not believe that goal is achieved by throwing condoms at kids in schools.  its solved by teaching kids about personal responsibility and respect for their bodies.  i know thats a more difficult task than giving away condoms and pills but when is doing the right thing ever the easy thing?

i'm also experienced enough to know that if you treat women with respect and yourself with respect and take the necessary precautions when engaged in sexual activity the chances of unwanted pregnancy go down drastically.  if you don't believe this I can't help you.  People who don't believe this are the reason why we have so many young girls and boys in these predicaments in the first place.  I also don't get the impression that you realize the psychological implications abortion has on young women and men.  again i don't believe that abortion is ALWAYS the answer.  its a band aid solution to a much bigger problem.    

Archer77

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A 13-year-old girl is not a "woman."  She's a girl.  A kid.  More importantly, according to society she's a minor who is unable to make any life-changing decisions on her own without parental (or guardian) consent, including obtaining prescription medication, driving a car, going to the doctor, going to the dentist, buying alcohol, buying cigarettes, deciding whether or not to have surgery, deciding whether to be a Mormon, Muslim, or Catholic, etc., etc.  I don't see a decision regarding what should be prescription medication for an abortion pill or a medical decision to have an abortion as any different.  

I'm in favor of the broader principle as it applies to all legal decisions regarding the minor child, which of course would include abortion.

It simply defies common sense to start drawing arbitrary lines for kids and allow them to make adult decisions in situations like this.  What's outrageous too is it may help cover up a crime.  A 13-year-old girl cannot consent to sex, so any 13-year-old girl who is pregnant is a victim.  Her parents should know.  Law enforcement should know.    

This is pretty much my argument.  Considering that the age of consent in most states is 16, the guide post for when teens are in charge of their sexual behavior is already established, and it isn't t thirteen.  You may disagree and believe that anyone under eighteen is under the authority of their parents and I understand that argument, but  I'm arguing strictly based on the established law.
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