Author Topic: What specific rights and freedoms have you lost since 9/11? posted by PIP  (Read 11821 times)

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2013, 03:44:01 PM »
We're talking about both.  I'll give it one last try.  You claim one of the freedoms/rights you have lost after 9/11 is loss of privacy in your communications.  You narrowed that down to communications you send (which should eliminate phone calls).  I think we're talking about your private e-mail and letter communications with someone else.    

Who intercepted your e-mail or letter communications with someone else?  

When did this happen?      

Please explain the differentiation.

OzmO

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2013, 03:46:22 PM »


And?


what does that have to do with asking specifically what he means by "my communication"?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2013, 03:50:25 PM »
Can't try to make differences without explaining them, Beach Bum.  You know this.

Please explain, or say that you can't or won't.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2013, 03:53:23 PM »
Consider yourself owned, Beach Bum. 

Next time, don't attack my country.

Roger Bacon

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2013, 03:58:48 PM »
Consider yourself owned, Beach Bum. 

Next time, don't attack my country.


Dos Equis

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2013, 04:01:03 PM »
Consider yourself owned, Beach Bum. 

Next time, don't attack my country.

Oh you got me.  lol.  Now I know not to waste my time.  Ozmo was right.   :) 

Roger Bacon

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2013, 04:11:20 PM »
Now I know not to waste my time. 

I speak for almost everyone when I say that we sincerely appreciate that!  8)

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2013, 04:15:38 PM »
Beach Bum, just don't say shit you can't back up.  It's pretty simple.

Dos Equis

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2013, 04:17:13 PM »
Beach Bum, just don't say shit you can't back up.  It's pretty simple.

Yawn.   ::)

240 is Back

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2013, 04:19:58 PM »
listening to the senators and reps - REPUBS and dems alike - saying "we need more spending on cameras and other invasive technology", I just want to spit.

Fck everyone who ever votes again for ANY politician who, in the 24 hours after an attack, decides to "sell" their idea of drones or cameras.

avxo

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2013, 04:25:35 PM »
Is it?

Absolutely.


Laws change all the time.  They have all through out our history.  When basics freedoms are overturned such as the ones in the bill of rights among others they will effect the average joe and there will be a revolution as a result.  If I can't wear a belt through a scanner which i do repeatedly, i ain't tripping. There are some that cause concern for me.  But not enough to claim we are no longer a freedom country.

This isn't about your belt or the idiots manning the TSA checkpoints and performing their version of kabuki theater.

This about National Security Letters - which government agencies could issue to compel the production of documents without the signature of an impartial Judge and impose a muzzle on those who receive them preventing them from exercising their First Amendment rights.

This is about the assertions by the Government that they can detain - indefinitely and without access to counsel - Americans; worse still is the assertion that the President can order that Americans be executed, summarily and without any due process.

This is about secret Courts, such as the U.S. FISCR, granting the Justice Department ridiculously wide new powers to use communications intercepted without warrants in the course of intelligence operations in criminal cases.

This is about the Government invoking the state secrets privilege to kill civil litigation on cases involving renditions and surveillance programs.

I could go on. There's more at stake than your belt OzmO, even if you cannot see it. I urge you to ask yourself one question: How many freedoms lost will it take, before we are no longer a "freedom country"? Hmm?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2013, 04:27:08 PM »
listening to the senators and reps - REPUBS and dems alike - saying "we need more spending on cameras and other invasive technology", I just want to spit.

Fck everyone who ever votes again for ANY politician who, in the 24 hours after an attack, decides to "sell" their idea of drones or cameras.

Some of the quotes from these people should scare the living fuck out of any sane citizen.  This shit isn't a game.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #87 on: April 16, 2013, 04:29:59 PM »
Absolutely.


This isn't about your belt or the idiots manning the TSA checkpoints and performing their version of kabuki theater.

This about National Security Letters - which government agencies could issue to compel the production of documents without the signature of an impartial Judge and impose a muzzle on those who receive them preventing them from exercising their First Amendment rights.

This is about the assertions by the Government that they can detain - indefinitely and without access to counsel - Americans; worse still is the assertion that the President can order that Americans be executed, summarily and without any due process.

This is about secret Courts, such as the U.S. FISCR, granting the Justice Department ridiculously wide new powers to use communications intercepted without warrants in the course of intelligence operations in criminal cases.

This is about the Government invoking the state secrets privilege to kill civil litigation on cases involving renditions and surveillance programs.

I could go on. There's more at stake than your belt OzmO, even if you cannot see it. I urge you to ask yourself one question: How many freedoms lost will it take, before we are no longer a "freedom country"? Hmm?


How do you respond, OzmO?

OzmO

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #88 on: April 16, 2013, 04:36:11 PM »
How do you respond, OzmO?

How does it feel now that someone else is able to do what you couldn't do?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #89 on: April 16, 2013, 04:40:40 PM »
How does it feel now that someone else is able to do what you couldn't do?

Is that a response to avxo, or me, or...?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2013, 04:43:55 PM »
Some of you guys need to think before you start spewing bullshit that involves the rights of others.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2013, 04:44:39 PM »
Beach Bum, for sure, should know better.

OzmO

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2013, 04:45:30 PM »
Absolutely.


This isn't about your belt or the idiots manning the TSA checkpoints and performing their version of kabuki theater.

This about National Security Letters - which government agencies could issue to compel the production of documents without the signature of an impartial Judge and impose a muzzle on those who receive them preventing them from exercising their First Amendment rights.

This is about the assertions by the Government that they can detain - indefinitely and without access to counsel - Americans; worse still is the assertion that the President can order that Americans be executed, summarily and without any due process.

This is about secret Courts, such as the U.S. FISCR, granting the Justice Department ridiculously wide new powers to use communications intercepted without warrants in the course of intelligence operations in criminal cases.

This is about the Government invoking the state secrets privilege to kill civil litigation on cases involving renditions and surveillance programs.

I could go on. There's more at stake than your belt OzmO, even if you cannot see it. I urge you to ask yourself one question: How many freedoms lost will it take, before we are no longer a "freedom country"? Hmm?


On ipad, so....


1st paragraph: Are there instances of this happening?  If so what are some?

2nd paragraph:  that's outside the uSA and that bastard n the WH signed it into law. However I suspect any sitting PoTUS would have done it too.

3rd.  I don't like it either.  Of the "rights" taken away I the last 10 years I do have a problem with those 2 the most and have spoken out against many times here and othe places.  Idiot immediately buy into the excuse of it being a different world with technology and therefore time is an issue.

4th para, never heard of that.  But do go on.  Finally, some one who can actually back up an argument.  But I knew that all along about you avxo  :)

Still, none this is going to cuase a revolution or even a major protest and it doesnt affect the average Joe.

OzmO

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2013, 04:45:50 PM »
Is that a response to avxo, or me, or...?

You jack

OzmO

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2013, 04:46:32 PM »
Absolutely.


This isn't about your belt or the idiots manning the TSA checkpoints and performing their version of kabuki theater.

This about National Security Letters - which government agencies could issue to compel the production of documents without the signature of an impartial Judge and impose a muzzle on those who receive them preventing them from exercising their First Amendment rights.

This is about the assertions by the Government that they can detain - indefinitely and without access to counsel - Americans; worse still is the assertion that the President can order that Americans be executed, summarily and without any due process.

This is about secret Courts, such as the U.S. FISCR, granting the Justice Department ridiculously wide new powers to use communications intercepted without warrants in the course of intelligence operations in criminal cases.

This is about the Government invoking the state secrets privilege to kill civil litigation on cases involving renditions and surveillance programs.

I could go on. There's more at stake than your belt OzmO, even if you cannot see it. I urge you to ask yourself one question: How many freedoms lost will it take, before we are no longer a "freedom country"? Hmm?


Bump for Jack,  study this jack. This is how you make a legit argument. 

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2013, 04:49:08 PM »
Bump for Jack,  study this jack. This is how you make a legit argument.

I would absolutely agree.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2013, 05:59:38 PM »
Absolutely.


This isn't about your belt or the idiots manning the TSA checkpoints and performing their version of kabuki theater.

This about National Security Letters - which government agencies could issue to compel the production of documents without the signature of an impartial Judge and impose a muzzle on those who receive them preventing them from exercising their First Amendment rights.

This is about the assertions by the Government that they can detain - indefinitely and without access to counsel - Americans; worse still is the assertion that the President can order that Americans be executed, summarily and without any due process.

This is about secret Courts, such as the U.S. FISCR, granting the Justice Department ridiculously wide new powers to use communications intercepted without warrants in the course of intelligence operations in criminal cases.

This is about the Government invoking the state secrets privilege to kill civil litigation on cases involving renditions and surveillance programs.

I could go on. There's more at stake than your belt OzmO, even if you cannot see it. I urge you to ask yourself one question: How many freedoms lost will it take, before we are no longer a "freedom country"? Hmm?


I still hope to see a sincere answer to this.

Especially since we're talking about something that absolutely cannot be reversed, according to the standing design.





avxo

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2013, 06:06:30 PM »
1st paragraph: Are there instances of this happening?  If so what are some?

Multiple, in fact. The wikipedia article lists a few of the cases that ended up in Court. The numbers cited in the wikipedia are startling:  In 2003 they issued 39,346 requests, in 2004 another 56,507 requests and in 2005 another 47,221. I don't have easy access to newer statistics, but this is a very real and legitimate concern, even with recent decisions striking down the "gag order" portion of the law in question.


2nd paragraph:  that's outside the uSA and that bastard n the WH signed it into law. However I suspect any sitting PoTUS would have done it too.

On the matter of where we detain people, does it matter if it's outside the United States or inside? Either we stand for freedom and the rule of law, or we don't. Whether it's in Quantico or Guantanamo Bay the U.S. Government is the entity exercising control and jurisdiction and hardly anyone would argue differently. Let me make one thing very clear: I'm not necessarily opposed to Guantanamo Bay, nor do I think that it is legally or morally necessary to provide detainees access to U.S. courts. But I believe that anyone under the control and jurisdiction of the U.S. Government is protected by the Constitution (to varying degrees) and that the system that what we have in place now is a travesty.


3rd.  I don't like it either.  Of the "rights" taken away I the last 10 years I do have a problem with those 2 the most and have spoken out against many times here and othe places.  Idiot immediately buy into the excuse of it being a different world with technology and therefore time is an issue.

But the problem is that, having spoken out against them, you then reduce everything to TSA and belts. This is the kind of Orwellian stuff that we all - regardless of party affiliation - ought to be outraged about. We ought to be contacting our Senators and Represenatives on a daily basis, until they finally listen to us and stop this insane descent into some kind of crazy police state.


4th para, never heard of that.  But do go on.  Finally, some one who can actually back up an argument.  But I knew that all along about you avxo  :)

You may want to read into the travesty that was the NSA warrantless surveillance case at AT&T; the legal case is Hepting v. U.S.. When the Government tried to invoke the State Secrets privilege, the Court denied that request but the Government appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Before the 9th could rule, legislation was introduced and passed that granted AT&T (and others) retroactive immunity for past violations, and the Court remanded the case to the lower court. The government then moved to dismiss based on provisions found in the new law. Their motion was, of course, successful.

The privilege was successfully asserted in a case brought by El-Masri against the CIA. El-Masri, under a process known as "extraordinary rendition" was taken by the CIA from Skopje to Afghanistan where he alleged he was tortured. His name was was identical to that of someone on a watch list. The suit was dismissed upon the Government's assertion that the case would "present a grave risk of injury to national security." The particular danger it would pose was never specified.

The privilege was, again, successfully asserted in Arar v. Ashcroft. Apparently, requiring the Government to explain why Mr. Arar was sent by the Government to Syria instead of Canada would present a grave risk to our national security.

It's easy to dismiss all this stuff and argue that none of this happened to Americans and we're all fine and dandy and perfectly free. But the facts tell a different story. This country was founded - and flourished - on some core ideas, ideas so fundamental that to abandon them means to abandon our "soul".


Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2013, 06:29:21 PM »
Multiple, in fact. The wikipedia article lists a few of the cases that ended up in Court. The numbers cited in the wikipedia are startling:  In 2003 they issued 39,346 requests, in 2004 another 56,507 requests and in 2005 another 47,221. I don't have easy access to newer statistics, but this is a very real and legitimate concern, even with recent decisions striking down the "gag order" portion of the law in question.


On the matter of where we detain people, does it matter if it's outside the United States or inside? Either we stand for freedom and the rule of law, or we don't. Whether it's in Quantico or Guantanamo Bay the U.S. Government is the entity exercising control and jurisdiction and hardly anyone would argue differently. Let me make one thing very clear: I'm not necessarily opposed to Guantanamo Bay, nor do I think that it is legally or morally necessary to provide detainees access to U.S. courts. But I believe that anyone under the control and jurisdiction of the U.S. Government is protected by the Constitution (to varying degrees) and that the system that what we have in place now is a travesty.


But the problem is that, having spoken out against them, you then reduce everything to TSA and belts. This is the kind of Orwellian stuff that we all - regardless of party affiliation - ought to be outraged about. We ought to be contacting our Senators and Represenatives on a daily basis, until they finally listen to us and stop this insane descent into some kind of crazy police state.


You may want to read into the travesty that was the NSA warrantless surveillance case at AT&T; the legal case is Hepting v. U.S.. When the Government tried to invoke the State Secrets privilege, the Court denied that request but the Government appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. Before the 9th could rule, legislation was introduced and passed that granted AT&T (and others) retroactive immunity for past violations, and the Court remanded the case to the lower court. The government then moved to dismiss based on provisions found in the new law. Their motion was, of course, successful.

The privilege was successfully asserted in a case brought by El-Masri against the CIA. El-Masri, under a process known as "extraordinary rendition" was taken by the CIA from Skopje to Afghanistan where he alleged he was tortured. His name was was identical to that of someone on a watch list. The suit was dismissed upon the Government's assertion that the case would "present a grave risk of injury to national security." The particular danger it would pose was never specified.

The privilege was, again, successfully asserted in Arar v. Ashcroft. Apparently, requiring the Government to explain why Mr. Arar was sent by the Government to Syria instead of Canada would present a grave risk to our national security.

It's easy to dismiss all this stuff and argue that none of this happened to Americans and we're all fine and dandy and perfectly free. But the facts tell a different story. This country was founded - and flourished - on some core ideas, ideas so fundamental that to abandon them means to abandon our "soul".


It is so completely fucked, this entire line of reasoning, itself, will not be questioned.

...a real nagging feeling, no doubt about it.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Boston Marathon twin bombings
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2013, 06:31:56 PM »
How in the fucking hell did this happen?