Author Topic: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!  (Read 7091 times)

blacken700

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2013, 03:20:47 PM »
lol have'nt we learned our lession with gallup

Straw Man

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2013, 03:28:23 PM »
Gallup Poll also shows 91% of American favor background checks
http://www.gallup.com/poll/160085/americans-back-obama-proposals-address-gun-violence.aspx

Soul Crusher

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2013, 03:30:45 PM »
Gallup Poll also shows 91% of American favor background checks
http://www.gallup.com/poll/160085/americans-back-obama-proposals-address-gun-violence.aspx

There already is background checks moron!  Its called the NICS system 

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2013, 03:34:55 PM »
There already is background checks moron!  Its called the NICS system 

does it include private party transactions?


Soul Crusher

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2013, 03:39:20 PM »
does it include private party transactions?



No - and guess what - criminals dont go through the NICS system now!  That is why they are criminals. 

This bill was meaningless nonsense. 

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2013, 03:44:27 PM »
No - and guess what - criminals dont go through the NICS system now!  That is why they are criminals. 

This bill was meaningless nonsense. 

so I guess you're saying that no criminal has ever failed a background check

is that what you're saying

Soul Crusher

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2013, 03:45:52 PM »
so I guess you're saying that no criminal has ever failed a background check

is that what you're saying

Many have and guess what?  Holder and Obama are prosecuting next to no one who fails it now! 

blacken700

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2013, 03:46:12 PM »
by Dan Noyes, Center for Investigative Reporting
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ask a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.


In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.


The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales made by legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recent reports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case that illegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolen from John Q. Citizen. Like bank robbers, who are interested in banks, gun traffickers are interested in FFLs because that's where the guns are. This is why FFLs are a large source of illegal guns for traffickers, who ultimately wind up selling the guns on the street.


According to a recent ATF report, there is a significant diversion to the illegal gun market from FFLs. The report states that "of the 120,370 crime guns that were traced to purchases from the FFLs then in business, 27.7 % of these firearms were seized by law enforcement in connection with a crime within two years of the original sale. This rapid `time to crime' of a gun purchased from an FFL is a strong indicator that the initial seller or purchaser may have been engaged in unlawful activity."


The report goes on to state that "over-the-counter purchases are not the only means by which guns reach the illegal market from FFLs" and reveals that 23,775 guns have been reported lost, missing or stolen from FFLs since September 13, 1994, when a new law took effect requiring dealers to report gun thefts within 48 hours. This makes the theft of 6,000 guns reported in the CIR/Frontline show "Hot Guns" only 25% of all cases reported to ATF in the past two and one-half years.


Another large source of guns used in crimes are unlicensed street dealers who either get their guns through illegal transactions with licensed dealers, straw purchases, or from gun thefts. These illegal dealers turn around and sell these illegally on the street. An additional way criminals gain access to guns is family and friends, either through sales, theft or as gifts.


While many guns are taken off the street when people are arrested and any firearms in their possession are confiscated, a new study shows how easily arrestees believe they could illegally acquire another firearm. Supported by the National Institute of Justice and based on interviews with those recently arrested, the study acknowledges gun theft is common, with 13 percent of all arrestees interviewed admitting that they had stolen a gun. However a key finding is that "the illegal market is the most likely source" for these people to obtain a gun. "In fact, more than half the arrestees say it is easy to obtain guns illegally," the report states. Responding to a question of how they obtained their most recent handgun, the arrestees answered as follows: 56% said they paid cash; 15% said it was a gift; 10% said they borrowed it; 8% said they traded for it; while 5% only said that they stole it.


ATF officials say that only about 8% of the nation's 124,000 retail gun dealers sell the majority of handguns that are used in crimes. They conclude that these licensed retailers are part of a block of rogue entrepreneurs tempted by the big profits of gun trafficking. Cracking down on these dealers continues to be a priority for the ATF. What's needed, according to Wachtel, is better monitoring of the activities of legally licensed gun dealers. This means examining FFL paperwork to see where their guns are coming from, and making sure that those guns are being sold legally. But he says, "Let's be honest. If someone wants a gun, it's obvious the person will not have difficulty buying a gun, either legally or through the extensive United States black market."

tu_holmes

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2013, 03:47:38 PM »
Gallup Poll also shows 91% of American favor background checks

So you think the Senators just all went against their constituents?

Soul Crusher

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2013, 03:48:36 PM »
In fact, there are a number of sources that allow guns to fall into the wrong hands, with gun thefts at the bottom of the list. Wachtel says one of the most common ways criminals get guns is through straw purchase sales. A straw purchase occurs when someone who may not legally acquire a firearm, or who wants to do so anonymously, has a companion buy it on their behalf. According to a 1994 ATF study on "Sources of Crime Guns in Southern California," many straw purchases are conducted in an openly "suggestive" manner where two people walk into a gun store, one selects a firearm, and then the other uses identification for the purchase and pays for the gun. Or, several underage people walk into a store and an adult with them makes the purchases. Both of these are illegal activities.

______________________


That is already illegal now. 

Straw Man

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #60 on: April 18, 2013, 04:03:49 PM »
Many have and guess what?  Holder and Obama are prosecuting next to no one who fails it now! 

is failing a background check now a crime?

Straw Man

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #61 on: April 18, 2013, 04:05:59 PM »
So you think the Senators just all went against their constituents?

maybe the ones who voted against it had the 9% of american who weren't in favor of it in their states and had zero constituents who were in favor of it

do you think that's possible?

tu_holmes

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #62 on: April 18, 2013, 04:12:45 PM »
maybe the ones who voted against it had the 9% of american who weren't in favor of it in their states and had zero constituents who were in favor of it

do you think that's possible?


I do not.

Mostly because you're saying that only 9% of the country lives in the red states.

That seems EXTREMELY unlikely.

I could get the census and do the math, but I'm really not going to take the time. You would be saying that 91% of the population would vote Democrat and only 9% would vote Republican (As I'm sure you can agree that there's a pretty good political line drawn on "gun control")

We know that's not the case.

As a matter of fact, I know in Virginia 1 Senator voted for it, and another voted against it.


Straw Man

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #63 on: April 18, 2013, 04:42:23 PM »
I do not.

Mostly because you're saying that only 9% of the country lives in the red states.

That seems EXTREMELY unlikely.

I could get the census and do the math, but I'm really not going to take the time. You would be saying that 91% of the population would vote Democrat and only 9% would vote Republican (As I'm sure you can agree that there's a pretty good political line drawn on "gun control")

We know that's not the case.

As a matter of fact, I know in Virginia 1 Senator voted for it, and another voted against it.



all I'm really saying is that multiple polls show overwhelming support (88-91%) for universal background check

I'm not even saying the polls are correct (though I suspect they are close to correct)

just saying, that's what the polls show

Even NRA members show strong support for this

blacken700

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #64 on: April 18, 2013, 04:50:13 PM »
GOP and Guns: Just Digging a Hole


By: John Zogby Forbes.com Contributor
 
I wrote last week about the fact that the Newtown incident is a defining moment that requires reflection, action, and sacrifice. Just yesterday, the Senate rejected the very mild Manchin-Toomey compromise that would have add background checks to gun shows and internet sales, but not to private and family transfers. This is a very mild reform and no one has really been able to show how it infringes upon anyone's rights. The only arguments actually revolve around a sort of domino theory: i.e. this step will lead to a national gun registry, which will lead to… which will lead to…

When I renew my driver's license I have to take an eye exam and pass it. My success or failure to see is recorded somewhere. A document that states that I am legally blind or that I need corrective lenses in order to operate a motor vehicle is certainly a violation of my rights - though I am not sure which amendment - but beneficial to my community. It is a tradeoff we make for the community good. So too is the statement I need to sign that I have been treated for heart ailments. I don't necessarily want people to know that but I guess they should be aware that if I have a massive coronary attack and jump a highway median, that it wasn't the open container of Chavas Regal in the brown paper bag next to me. Talk of a denial of rights. You mean I can't drink and drive after a hard day annoying people with my polls? I can't drive a motorcycle at 90 miles an hour without a helmet? What else do we pay public works employees to do except pick up pieces of bloody brains and craniums?

Gun owners have rights. Not too long ago, smokers did, too. There is a higher calling, a public good. Automobiles can kill people. Motorcycles can kill people. Driving too fast on a motorcycle (and without a helmet) can cause insurance and taxes to go up. Littering is an expression of free speech. Dumping my trash on an open field at midnight is a convenience and saves me money.

This is absurd. Have your guns and have your fun. But guns can kill people. Some actually do. Call me old-fashioned, but I want to help law enforcement find a perpetrator as quickly as possible. This appears to me to help law abiding gun owners, not hurt them.

What about the politics of this vote in the Senate? A very good editor in Washington in DC asked me this morning if the failure to pass background checks represents a failure for Barack Obama and a permanent loss of his political mojo. I think not. With Congress' rating at 14%, with 90% of likely voters supporting background checks, with the images of the Newtown families and the intensity of support for gun control now matching that of guns rights advocates, a more popular President now has a solid wedge issue to carry him into the 2014 congressional elections. Not only does the President have 90% support on this, he also has solid and intense sentiment for background checks and action among his key base constituencies. I have used this metaphor before: the GOP can "win" in the short term by playing defense, but when the public demands action, as they do now, they are going to have to figure out to put the ball into the hoop.

Archer77

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #65 on: April 18, 2013, 04:51:34 PM »
all I'm really saying is that multiple polls show overwhelming support (88-91%) for universal background check

I'm not even saying the polls are correct (though I suspect they are close to correct)

just saying, that's what the polls show

Even NRA members show strong support for this

The problem is the numbers can change the more specific the questions become. You ask people a broad question like whether they support back ground checks on all gun purchases and they are likely to answer yes.  Start giving them specifics on what such a measure entail and they begin to change their opinion.  This happens all the time with polls.  
A

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #66 on: April 18, 2013, 04:59:19 PM »
The problem is the numbers can change the more specific the questions become. You ask people a broad question like whether they support back ground checks on all gun purchases and they are likely to answer yes.  Start giving them specifics on what such a measure entail and they begin to change their opinion.  This happens all the time with polls.  

fair enough

do you have an examples as it pertains to the subject at hand

I've seen stories saying 80% + of gun owners and 74% of NRA members support universal background checks

Archer77

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #67 on: April 18, 2013, 05:03:34 PM »
fair enough

do you have an examples as it pertains to the subject at hand

I've seen stories saying 80% + of gun owners and 74% of NRA members support universal background checks

I do not have data that pertains to the topic.  I will do some research into this particular poll such as who conducted it and what it entailed.  I'm surprised that 90% of Americans can agree on anything.
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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #68 on: April 18, 2013, 06:21:24 PM »
"First of all, 90 percent of people saying they favor background checks is not the same thing as saying they favor Manchin-Toomey."


I don't expect the "Hooked on Phonics" brigade to understand that.

tu_holmes

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #69 on: April 18, 2013, 07:09:09 PM »


Well, let's focus on the point.

Do you agree that a majority of Americans want Obamacare repealed?

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #70 on: April 18, 2013, 07:22:03 PM »
Well, let's focus on the point.

Do you agree that a majority of Americans want Obamacare repealed?

I don't agree

most recent poll I can find (from McLauglin and Associates) March 13, 2013 only shows that only 32% want Obamacare repealed

I'd provide a link but why bother when no one else ever does (for example - where is your source or Bereft Fairy ?)

tu_holmes

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #71 on: April 18, 2013, 07:24:09 PM »
I don't agree

most recent poll I can find (from McLauglin and Associates) March 13, 2013 only shows that only 32% want Obamacare repealed

I'd provide a link but why bother when no one else ever does (for example - where is your source or Bereft Fairy ?)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/03/repeal-poll.png



Washington Post?

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tu_holmes

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #73 on: April 18, 2013, 07:27:58 PM »
you got it

thanks for proving my point

Oh, I'm sorry... but "repeal or change" doesn't get it done for you?

You're trying to argue semantics that more than 50% of people do not like Obamacare in it's current form right?

Straw Man

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Re: O-Twink loses gun control vote - LOL!!!!!!!
« Reply #74 on: April 18, 2013, 07:28:57 PM »
Oh, I'm sorry... but "repeal or change" doesn't get it done for you?

You're trying to argue semantics that more than 50% of people do not like Obamacare in it's current form right?


who is arguing semantics

you said REPEAL did you not?