Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
September 21, 2014, 09:34:39 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is Praying To God Pointless?  (Read 4723 times)
BikiniSlut
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5031


I'm dating and love Uncle Junior! Xoxoxo


« on: April 25, 2013, 01:40:24 PM »

I thought this was a good read. It obviously refers to a Christian God but imagine any God. I know I've been praying more than ever, and it all seems to be for nothing. I'm tired of praying to someone who isn't listening or doesn't seem to care.



It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.

But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.

I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.

Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.

-Dave

http://www.christianway.org/forums/Topic11926-17-1.aspx
Report to moderator   Logged
syntaxmachine
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 2542



« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2013, 01:35:52 PM »

Well, research indicates that prayed-for outcomes (e.g., in medical circumstances) don't happen any more frequently than outcomes that aren't prayed-for, so prayer doesn't seem to be causally efficacious in that sense -- just what one would expect. But if the person(s) praying genuinely believe all the baloney, prayer can function to reinforce a web of beliefs and feelings of well-being/comfort derived from that web. So the activity can be causally efficacious in that sense. I can't think of any other pertinent senses to consider.

Are you still feeling out various forms of supernaturalism to derive emotional support from? You might come to realize the greatest well of support comes from within you, not by adopting this or that form of childish belief. But I'll leave that to you.

Report to moderator   Logged
Butterbean
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 19460


« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2013, 01:43:39 PM »

IMO, praying is not pointless.  It can bring feelings of peace and comfort and hope as well as closeness and fellowship w/God.

I do not think God changes His mind regarding His will.  I recently heard that someone heard a speaker say that there are X number of prayers that need to be prayed to change Y (a specific situation) and then God will change it in that way, but I have no idea what the guy is basing that on and it doesn't seem scriptural.

I do believe that at times people pray more according to His will than others.

Maybe prayer can help "change" certain details in the way things go?  Kind of like how we have free will, but God's ultimate plan will be accomplished?  



BS, do you feel any presence of peace or comfort when you pray?


Report to moderator   Logged

R
Butterbean
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 19460


« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2013, 01:49:57 PM »

But if the person(s) praying genuinely believe all the baloney, prayer can function to reinforce a web of beliefs and feelings of well-being/comfort derived from that web.


Also, the acknowledgment that we are not in total control (but an all-knowing, all-powerful Being is - Who has our best interests at heart) can also take a lot of pressure off and results in increased peaceful feelings.   And that's no "bologna" Grin
Report to moderator   Logged

R
syntaxmachine
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 2542



« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2013, 02:48:10 PM »

Dave's argument has a couple of problems:

(i) It isn't the case that because the child with cancer died, this was always God's will and prayer could not have effected a different outcome. When this assumption (and of course, that is all it is) is rejected, the Christian can say that God does listen to prayer in the sense of admitting prayers received into his decision making calculus on a given occasion. It may or may not affect His decision, given the circumstances. In the case of the child, then, prayers may have been considered, but God still decided that the child should die for mysterious reason R. Dave acknowledges this, but then falls into problem (ii).

I think that this is all consistent with omniscience because God can simply know in advance that in future circumstance C, received prayers will enter into His decision making calculus and effect a specific outcome that wouldn't have obtained without that input.

(ii) Dave falsely claims that "there is always a best choice in any situation." He needs this to be true because when it is, he can claim that in any given situation, God will always make the correct choice absent prayer, given his perfection (thus rendering prayer useless). But it isn't true: there are a variety of situations with no 'best' decision to be made relative to the interests of the decision maker. For example, there's no 'best' decision between receiving $100 for sure vs. flipping a coin such that heads gives you $200 and tails gives you 0. Similarly, there may be situations in God's Plan which have no 'best' decision in that the plan will move forward either way; these may be amenable to the input of prayer.

Alternatively, God may always make the best choice if He chooses, but still avoids doing so in order to give us some role in realizing the plan. In other words, prayer may affect outcomes because God wants us to have some input in the unfolding of events, even if the outcomes from such decisions are less than optimal.

Anyway, this has all been a huge waste of time because research demonstrates that prayer doesn't do anything to the world either way, but it has been interesting.
Report to moderator   Logged
BikiniSlut
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5031


I'm dating and love Uncle Junior! Xoxoxo


« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2013, 03:44:29 PM »

It has not brought me any type of comfort yet. And if the out come is already pre determined, which I'm on the fence about, I see no point.

Ironically I prayed for a friend today to get a job he really really wanted and needs, and literally 5 minutes later he phoned me to tell me he didn't get it.  Sad I felt guilty even though I had nothing to feel guilty for. Talk about timing.  Tongue
Report to moderator   Logged
Shizzo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 21753


The King of Irrelevance


« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2013, 03:46:04 PM »

I pray out of comfort. I pray for the health and happiness of my family and friends. Does it work? No, but it makes me feel good. Religion is about fulfilling selfish needs.
Report to moderator   Logged
BikiniSlut
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5031


I'm dating and love Uncle Junior! Xoxoxo


« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 03:47:51 PM »

I pray out of comfort. I pray for the health and happiness of my family and friends. Does it work? No, but it makes me feel good. Religion is about fulfilling selfish needs.

As selfish as it sounds that is what I would like out of prayer.

I actually get more comfort when I talk to my Teddy Bears, as silly as that sounds.
Report to moderator   Logged
tbombz
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19162


Psalms 150


« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 07:07:59 PM »

Bikini, I am very happy to know that you are thinking about the issue of metaphysics. It is a heavy subject that people often avoid with vigilance. Because you are an admirer of mine I have become an admirer of yours, and I wish to influence your journey towards the light.  Smiley  Please take these few little anecdotes of mine and think them over a few times so that they stick with you. Even if you dont see any value in them right now, I think they will shed light on an even more enlightened perspective eventually.  Cool



1) Prayer obviously does not work perfectly for everybody all the time. But that is not proof of its complete impotence. I think that when you pray for knowledge about God you can get aid in your quest for knowledge.  Gods reasons for the nature of things,  why he wanted to create the world, why he keeps his existence hidden, and what it feels like to be God himself are all questions that have led me to what I think are better understandings of life, the world, spirituality, and metaphysics. But only when I prayed for help and genuinely wantede the TRUTH did I start having new and better understandings. As for prayer helping to change things outside of personal understanding,  I think its very limited in its effect on such things. I have experienced examples of prayer effecting other people, but through internal changes and not external reality. Whenever I am having a panic attack I text or call my best friend asking her to pray for me and I always know the second she starts to. My panic eases, my heart grows warm, and I know peace  can be found.  Smiley


2) Heaven on earth is a contradiction in terms. Heaven on earth would be boring, depressing, without value, and without appreciation. There would be no knowledge of right or wrong. There would be no love.


________________________ ________________________ ____________

You cant always get what you want.

But if you try sometimes, you might find..

YOU GET WHAT YOU NEED

 Smiley

Report to moderator   Logged
Shizzo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 21753


The King of Irrelevance


« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 07:17:25 PM »

Bikini, I am very happy to know that you are thinking about the issue of metaphysics. It is a heavy subject that people often avoid with vigilance. Because you are an admirer of mine I have become an admirer of yours, and I wish to influence your journey towards the light.  Smiley  Please take these few little anecdotes of mine and think them over a few times so that they stick with you. Even if you dont see any value in them right now, I think they will shed light on an even more enlightened perspective eventually.  Cool



1) Prayer obviously does not work perfectly for everybody all the time. But that is not proof of its complete impotence. I think that when you pray for knowledge about God you can get aid in your quest for knowledge.  Gods reasons for the nature of things,  why he wanted to create the world, why he keeps his existence hidden, and what it feels like to be God himself are all questions that have led me to what I think are better understandings of life, the world, spirituality, and metaphysics. But only when I prayed for help and genuinely wantede the TRUTH did I start having new and better understandings. As for prayer helping to change things outside of personal understanding,  I think its very limited in its effect on such things. I have experienced examples of prayer effecting other people, but through internal changes and not external reality. Whenever I am having a panic attack I text or call my best friend asking her to pray for me and I always know the second she starts to. My panic eases, my heart grows warm, and I know peace  can be found.  Smiley


2) Heaven on earth is a contradiction in terms. Heaven on earth would be boring, depressing, without value, and without appreciation. There would be no knowledge of right or wrong. There would be no love.


________________________ ________________________ ____________

You cant always get what you want.

But if you try sometimes, you might find..

YOU GET WHAT YOU NEED

 Smiley


God would not approve you showing cock pics. God would also frown on your gay, anal massages. Dont be naive.
Report to moderator   Logged
BikiniSlut
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5031


I'm dating and love Uncle Junior! Xoxoxo


« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 07:23:33 PM »

Bikini, I am very happy to know that you are thinking about the issue of metaphysics. It is a heavy subject that people often avoid with vigilance. Because you are an admirer of mine I have become an admirer of yours, and I wish to influence your journey towards the light.  Smiley  Please take these few little anecdotes of mine and think them over a few times so that they stick with you. Even if you dont see any value in them right now, I think they will shed light on an even more enlightened perspective eventually.  Cool



1) Prayer obviously does not work perfectly for everybody all the time. But that is not proof of its complete impotence. I think that when you pray for knowledge about God you can get aid in your quest for knowledge.  Gods reasons for the nature of things,  why he wanted to create the world, why he keeps his existence hidden, and what it feels like to be God himself are all questions that have led me to what I think are better understandings of life, the world, spirituality, and metaphysics. But only when I prayed for help and genuinely wantede the TRUTH did I start having new and better understandings. As for prayer helping to change things outside of personal understanding,  I think its very limited in its effect on such things. I have experienced examples of prayer effecting other people, but through internal changes and not external reality. Whenever I am having a panic attack I text or call my best friend asking her to pray for me and I always know the second she starts to. My panic eases, my heart grows warm, and I know peace  can be found.  Smiley


2) Heaven on earth is a contradiction in terms. Heaven on earth would be boring, depressing, without value, and without appreciation. There would be no knowledge of right or wrong. There would be no love.


________________________ ________________________ ____________

You cant always get what you want.

But if you try sometimes, you might find..

YOU GET WHAT YOU NEED

 Smiley



I like this perspective TBombz. It's different.
Report to moderator   Logged
BikiniSlut
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5031


I'm dating and love Uncle Junior! Xoxoxo


« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 07:25:00 PM »

God would not approve you showing cock pics. God would also frown on your gay, anal massages. Dont be naive.

The God that I can't figure out if I believe in or not, would not judge TBombz for that. In fact I don't even think he would care about such trivial things.
Report to moderator   Logged
Shizzo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 21753


The King of Irrelevance


« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2013, 07:27:11 PM »

The God that I can't figure out if I believe in or not, would not judge TBombz for that. In fact I don't even think he would care about such trivial things.
We share the same thoughts. I put no stock in the bible's version of god.
Report to moderator   Logged
tbombz
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 19162


Psalms 150


« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2013, 08:59:08 PM »

God would not approve you showing cock pics. God would also frown on your gay, anal massages. Dont be naive.
God made me so that in my pure, natural, raw state i would be rockin out with my cock  out, broseph mcfadden. dig it .  Cool
Report to moderator   Logged
Agnostic007
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3791



« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2013, 01:27:43 PM »

Asking the average Christian about prayer can be confusing. Yes he answers prayers if you ask about positive things like "Should I pray to god if I should take this job?" But when you ask why a child dies after the entire church prays for their healing you may get "Satan is the god of this world and operates within its realm, so God doesn't interfere"

Then the prayer request thing... Does god need a minimum number of prayers from different people before he acts on the prayer? That's always stumped me.

If you allow yes, no, maybe as options for answers, then a doorknob is just as helpful in answering prayers in my opinion and would hold its own agains a prayer off against any known god
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 15031


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2013, 03:09:34 PM »

I thought this was a good read. It obviously refers to a Christian God but imagine any God. I know I've been praying more than ever, and it all seems to be for nothing. I'm tired of praying to someone who isn't listening or doesn't seem to care.



It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.

But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.

I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.

Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.

-Dave

http://www.christianway.org/forums/Topic11926-17-1.aspx

Hey BS....good read!

Daveís comments presuppose that God has predetermined a path for our lives according to his will.  Dave is correct.  

As Dave concludes:  ďEither your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.Ē

Appears to be sewn up pretty neatly.  

Dave also suggests that Godís perfection has predetermined the best possible outcome for our lives.  Dave is correct again.  

As Dave suggests our prayers are merely recommendations that are only valid if they agree with Godís preset choices because anything less than Godís preset choice is a step in the wrong direction.

Ultimately Dave blames Godís perfection and omniscience because he feels it invalidates the act of prayer rendering our prayers meaningless.

God is omniscient and has a will for each of our lives and chronologically that foreknowledge precedes our future choices, but the world he created takes into account our future choices and allows for his will and our will to be accomplished within the same perfect creation.  Now certainly only Godís will for our lives and our will for our lives can only be fulfilled simultaneously if they agree, but still Godís will for our lives takes second fiddle to our own will for our lives if they donít agree.  

God desires that we desire his will for our lives, but he honors our choice to defy his predetermined will.    In essence, just because God is omniscient and has a predetermined will for our lives doesnít mean his will is pre-executed.  We can easily defy his will for our lives.  For example, Jesus Christ desires that we all come to accept him as our Lord and Savior, but Iím gonna guess that the atheists and agnostics on Getbig arenít going to gives their lives to Christ again today.  That said, Godís predetermined will for our lives still exists, but has been defied.  As Dave stated, Godís mind isnít going to change either, but that doesnít mean his will for our lives is going to come to fruition Ö.we can prevent it.

So why pray?

The main reason I can think of to pray is that Jesus Christ told us to pray and later the apostle Paul affirmed that we should pray (without ceasing) according to that which was revealed to him by Jesus Christ.

A second reason to consider praying is that while Jesus Christ came as the incarnate Son of God on earth and assumed a limited human form that he prayed to God the Father for guidance and strength as an example of how we should seek him in our own lives.  If prayer was appropriate for the Son of God then itís appropriate for meÖ..God set the standard.  

Another reason to pray is because believers are engaged in a personal relationship with the Almighty and relationships are two-way streets.  How many successful relationships involve only one party engaged in communication with the other?  None that Iíve ever known of.  This is our opportunity as believers to consistently remain connected with our Lord and Savior and experience the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit (not the only way to feel the Holy Spirit's presence, but a powerful way).  

A third reason to consider is that the act of prayer is not for Godís edification, itís for ours (God doesn't need our prayers).  Prayer is a means by which we as believers can strengthen our faith.  Prayer is our opportunity to draw closer to God, to feel his presence via the Holy Spirit, to worship and to seek his will.  As believers our will for our lives should always match Godís will for our lives.  Almost every day I pray and I ask God that he reveal himself through me to others and that his will be done in my life.   I pray that I am able to recognize his fingerprints and guidance along the way to ensure that he will is being accomplished and that Iím not a hindrance.  As Dave already suggested, Godís will for our lives is perfect and anything less than that is a step in wrong direction.

A fourth reason to consider prayer is that despite the fact that God doesnít change his mind about his will for our lives this doesnít necessitate his inability to intervene supernaturally to right the course of our lives while remaining in complete harmony with his preset will for our livesÖ..he is God afterall.  How does he accomplish this?  Wish I could tell you LOL.

There are more reasons to pray that I'm not mentioning, but this is a first blush explanation.  
Report to moderator   Logged

Purge_WTF
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5520


Constitution Party forever.


« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2013, 11:43:24 AM »

It's not pointless.

God was about to destroy Israel for worshipping the golden calf at Mount Sinai, but Moses interceded for them. God then said, "I will pardon them as you have requested." (Numbers 14:20)
Report to moderator   Logged

Psalm 23.
Agnostic007
Getbig IV
****
Gender: Male
Posts: 3791



« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2013, 11:55:12 AM »

It's not pointless.

God was about to destroy Israel for worshipping the golden calf at Mount Sinai, but Moses interceded for them. God then said, "I will pardon them as you have requested." (Numbers 14:20)

Thank God he channged his mind!
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 15031


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2013, 12:44:01 PM »

Thank God he channged his mind!

God "changing his mind" suggests that he gained new information that he didn't have previously and negates and contradicts his omniscience.  God "changing his mind" based on Moses' intercession via prayer wasn't about God's edification, it was about Moses and the Israelites edification and the growing of their faith.  

Moses came to the conscious decision to request that God show mercy on the Israelites.....exactly the type of attributes God wanted his beloved creation to display amongst themselves and to others.   God's character is that of divine mercy, grace, love and justice.  God repeatedly showed mercy towards his chosen people that screwed up over and over and over again....this instance is no different.  Godís mind wasnít changed, he was going to show mercy regardless.  

The situation offered an opportunity for Moses (and the Israelites) to first grow their faith and exhibit mercy.  Prayer is not needed by an infinite God, but the result  of our prayers can help Godís finite creation develop their faith and learn to align themselves with the divine will of an infinite God.  This is a ďhindsight is 20/20Ē situation for Moses in which after the fact he can look back and realize, ďGod you were going to show mercy all along, but you wanted me to seize the opportunity and step up and request mercy be shown.Ē  And that example would then permeate through the Israelites led by Moses.

Iíve come to similar revelations in my own life concerning growing my faith and later recognizing the will of God for my lifeÖ.it changed me.
Report to moderator   Logged

loco
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8999

Getbig!


« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2013, 01:34:30 PM »

Thank God he channged his mind!

LOL
Report to moderator   Logged
loco
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8999

Getbig!


« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2013, 01:36:22 PM »

Is Praying To God Pointless?

No
Report to moderator   Logged
loco
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8999

Getbig!


« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2013, 01:37:33 PM »

It's not pointless.

God was about to destroy Israel for worshipping the golden calf at Mount Sinai, but Moses interceded for them. God then said, "I will pardon them as you have requested." (Numbers 14:20)

God "changing his mind" suggests that he gained new information that he didn't have previously and negates and contradicts his omniscience.  God "changing his mind" based on Moses' intercession via prayer wasn't about God's edification, it was about Moses and the Israelites edification and the growing of their faith.  

Moses came to the conscious decision to request that God show mercy on the Israelites.....exactly the type of attributes God wanted his beloved creation to display amongst themselves and to others.   God's character is that of divine mercy, grace, love and justice.  God repeatedly showed mercy towards his chosen people that screwed up over and over and over again....this instance is no different.  Godís mind wasnít changed, he was going to show mercy regardless.  

The situation offered an opportunity for Moses (and the Israelites) to first grow their faith and exhibit mercy.  Prayer is not needed by an infinite God, but the result  of our prayers can help Godís finite creation develop their faith and learn to align themselves with the divine will of an infinite God.  This is a ďhindsight is 20/20Ē situation for Moses in which after the fact he can look back and realize, ďGod you were going to show mercy all along, but you wanted me to seize the opportunity and step up and request mercy be shown.Ē  And that example would then permeate through the Israelites led by Moses.

Iíve come to similar revelations in my own life concerning growing my faith and later recognizing the will of God for my lifeÖ.it changed me.


Great posts here by Purge_WTF and by Man of Steel!    Grin

They ain't lying.  

2 Kings 20:1-6
New International Version (NIV)

1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, ďThis is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord,
3 ďRemember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.Ē And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him:
5 ďGo back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ĎThis is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the Lord.
6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.íĒ
Report to moderator   Logged
Shizzo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 21753


The King of Irrelevance


« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2013, 04:28:05 PM »

Is Praying To God Pointless?

No
Hi Coach!
Report to moderator   Logged
loco
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 8999

Getbig!


« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2013, 05:52:50 PM »

Hi Coach!

 Huh
Report to moderator   Logged
Radical Plato
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10476


Rhetoric is the art of ruling the minds of men.


« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2013, 11:52:24 PM »

Prayer is nothing more than wishful thinking by the weak minded.  Most prayers, shows a level of disrespect to the creative force responsible for life.  You have already been given everything you need, no need to ask for more.  As for a prayer of gratitude, no need, as the creative force already has everything they need.  If you wish to show gratitude, just help out your fellow man.

Obviously those that pray all the time are suffering from some type of Obsessive Compulsive disorder.  A repetitive behaviour that helps reduce anxiety, like nail biting.
Report to moderator   Logged

V
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!