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Author Topic: Question about Jesus, the early years. Serious answers only.  (Read 2847 times)
Bad Boy Dazza
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2013, 12:37:05 PM »

Yes those books where circulating but so were many other books, very few of which survived to the present day thanks to the early church.

There was a great deal of debate at the time over which books would be considered canon.  The book of revelation in particular was a contentious choice with many on the council protesting that it should not be included.  

You quoted me just before I modified my post  Smiley.  Yes there were other documents in circulation.   Many of these documents were preserved, but you would have to go to the vatican library to find them.  For example I know there is stuff about Mary and Joseph that is not in the bible.
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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2013, 12:38:09 PM »

the bible was not out together by the church ,much less the catholic church.  It was done by the council of nicia (spelling way off) under Constantine's order, a pagan.  The catholic church did not come around for some 1400 years

You can debate Constantine's faith, but the Catholic church WERE the council.

You can see a list of the attendees here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2013, 12:42:42 PM »

Who documented this flight to safety?
Don't understand the question, seems like you guys are under the impression that someone is on stand by with a pen and a note pad  Huh

No one documented it at the time, it was later documented by one of the gospels
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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2013, 12:44:27 PM »

You can debate Constantine's faith, but the Catholic church WERE the council.

You can see a list of the attendees here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

This is an important fact.  Some argue Constantine's faith wasn't authentic and he was attempting to use Christianity for the purpose of power and control.  My honest opinion is his faith probably was legit.
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« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2013, 12:46:08 PM »

I must've accidentally logged on to biblestudy.com
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« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2013, 12:46:37 PM »

Don't understand the question, seems like you guys are under the impression that someone is on stand by with a pen and a note pad  Huh

No one documented it at the time, it was later documented by one of the gospels

I'm kind of leading you. I was hoping someone was going to bring up non-biblical evidence for Jesus existing.  I know a bit about this though it isn't my normal area of study.  By the way, I am a historian but NOT a religious scholar.
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« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2013, 12:48:58 PM »

I'm kind of leading you. I was hoping someone was going to bring up non-biblical evidence for Jesus existing.  I know a bit about this though it isn't my normal area of study.  By the way, I am a historian but NOT a religious scholar.
Cool
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2013, 12:52:22 PM »

Buddy of mine is in Israel at the moment walking the path of Jesus.
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2013, 12:56:59 PM »

Buddy of mine is in Israel at the moment walking the path of Jesus.

So the Path was documented but not his early life. Got it.
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2013, 12:58:00 PM »

Don't understand the question, seems like you guys are under the impression that someone is on stand by with a pen and a note pad  Huh

No one documented it at the time, it was later documented by one of the gospels

No, but it's like.  "hey there is the son of God, born of a virgin"

Okay buddy, see ya in 20 years.  Have fun.  Go hide.  bye...
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2013, 12:59:01 PM »

So the Path was documented but not his early life. Got it.

Got me.  Huh I wasn't alive then.
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2013, 12:59:44 PM »

Got me.  Huh I wasn't alive then.

Sorry, I confused you with Wes for a second
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« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2013, 01:02:39 PM »

Sorry, I confused you with Wes for a second

 Grin ouch.
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« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2013, 01:05:34 PM »

No, but it's like.  "hey there is the son of God, born of a virgin"

Okay buddy, see ya in 20 years.  Have fun.  Go hide.  bye...
No it's like " hey there is the son of God, let's kill him" Of course he is going to hide for 20 year, but it was actually 30 years  Wink
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« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2013, 01:10:45 PM »

No, but it's like.  "hey there is the son of God, born of a virgin"

Okay buddy, see ya in 20 years.  Have fun.  Go hide.  bye...

You seem to be missing the point.

Point - for the purpose of this discussion we assume Jesus was a real person and God incarnate.

Someone had to document his life.   It was not the Justin Bieber era.  People didn't record the day to day activities of young teens.  And Jesus was not a "star".  His parents did not understand who he truly was until adulthood (at which point Joseph had passed away).  His parents like so many at the time did not keep a diary of his life as a child.  

He never started his mission until he was 30.  So this was the first time that it occurred to anyone to start preserving his activities/teachings.  These were real people, either writing down what they saw, or passing their memories to another to commit to paper.  They did not have intimate knowledge of his childhood, and would only have been able to go from what Mary told them.  

It is really no different to someone like Napoleon.  I would be surprised if there are many details on his childhood before he started to rise to power.
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« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2013, 01:23:09 PM »

You seem to be missing the point.

Point - for the purpose of this discussion we assume Jesus was a real person and God incarnate.

Someone had to document his life.   It was not the Justin Bieber era.  People didn't record the day to day activities of young teens.  And Jesus was not a "star".  His parents did not understand who he truly was until adulthood (at which point Joseph had passed away).  His parents like so many at the time did not keep a diary of his life as a child.  

He never started his mission until he was 30.  So this was the first time that it occurred to anyone to start preserving his activities/teachings.  These were real people, either writing down what they saw, or passing their memories to another to commit to paper.  They did not have intimate knowledge of his childhood, and would only have been able to go from what Mary told them.  

It is really no different to someone like Napoleon.  I would be surprised if there are many details on his childhood before he started to rise to power.

He is not a normal child, this wasn't a normal situation.  He was supposedly born from a VIRGIN.  Wasn't there some spectacle when he was born?  Three wise men and such? Didn't news spread about his birth that the messiah had come?  These are extraordinary circumstances to actually try paying attention to. 
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« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2013, 01:29:09 PM »

He is not a normal child, this wasn't a normal situation.  He was supposedly born from a VIRGIN.  Wasn't there some spectacle when he was born?  Three wise men and such? Didn't news spread about his birth that the messiah had come?  These are extraordinary circumstances to actually try paying attention to. 
Ya but when you have people trying to kill you all that goes down the drain. Ya people knew there was a Messiah around but no one knew it was actually him when he walked among people, if they did he would have been killed.
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2013, 01:38:56 PM »

He is not a normal child, this wasn't a normal situation.  He was supposedly born from a VIRGIN.  Wasn't there some spectacle when he was born?  Three wise men and such? Didn't news spread about his birth that the messiah had come?  These are extraordinary circumstances to actually try paying attention to. 

Correct, he was extremely special.  Mary and Joseph must have believed him to be destined for great things, perhaps a prophet or something similar.  But no concept of him as God incarnate.  Joseph was a carpenter (possibly illiterate).  Mary was probably illiterate.  They went into hiding to save his life as a baby, and would have carried that sense of danger for many years after, therefore seeking to keep his "special" status to themselves.

The point of the new testament (except revelations) is that it is not some supernaturally sent book.  It is the memories of real, ordinary people.  They themselves were not scholars.   That is part of it's beauty and fascination to me.  Because whether you believe it or not, these were real people, who lived fascinating lives and died (often horrific deaths).   The apostle Paul was a very real person, and in his early days he had persecuted and killed Christians.   It is an amazing document.
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2013, 02:10:54 PM »

So the Path was documented but not his early life. Got it.

Just small parts of his childhood were documented.  

The focus was his ministry in his adult years...this is the the essence of the New Testament.  The bible shouldn't be identified as a "biography" or "diary of Christ's life".  It's truly about the establishment of the new convenant and his ministry therein.  This isn't to suggest that his childhood wouldn't be extremely interesting to understand fully, but the whole of that history wasn't the inspiration for the authors of the gospels.


Personally I wish there was a full accounting of Jesus Christ's entire life on Earth, but sadly there isn't.
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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2013, 02:15:05 PM »

Just small parts of his childhood were documented.  

The focus was his ministry in his adult years...this is the the essence of the New Testament.  The bible shouldn't be identified as a "biography" or "diary of Christ's life".  It's truly about the establishment of the new convenant and his ministry therein.  This isn't to suggest that his childhood wouldn't be extremely interesting to understand fully, but the whole of that history wasn't the inspiration for the authors of the gospels.


Personally I wish there was a full accounting of Jesus Christ's entire life on Earth, but sadly there isn't.
I think the OP was under the impression that since the 3 wise men knew where he was and who he was then so did everyone else everywhere he walked during his life.

Which is not the case, the real scenario is that no one knew who he was until they witnessed miracles when he turned 30.
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« Reply #45 on: May 22, 2013, 02:19:32 PM »

I think the OP was under the impression that since the 3 wise men knew where he was and who he was then so did everyone else everywhere he walked during his life.

Which is not the case, the real scenario is that no one knew who he was until they witnessed miracles when he turned 30.

Exactly.   Certainly the OT prophecies were known, but the when and where and all that wasn't.   Christ demonstrated he was the fulfillment of prophecy and that's when people began to take note.  If it was widespread knowledge prior to that the Sanhedrin most likely would've interferred much earlier on his life....maybe his life would've been taken as a child.   Herod certainly tried.
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« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2013, 09:06:15 PM »

Exactly.   Certainly the OT prophecies were known, but the when and where and all that wasn't.   Christ demonstrated he was the fulfillment of prophecy and that's when people began to take note.  If it was widespread knowledge prior to that the Sanhedrin most likely would've interferred much earlier on his life....maybe his life would've been taken as a child.   Herod certainly tried.
The Crucifixion happened within 3 years, I suspect had this been known earlier his death would have came earlier as well
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« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2013, 05:41:18 AM »

The Crucifixion happened within 3 years, I suspect had this been known earlier his death would have came earlier as well
Yep, spot on.
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« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2013, 07:40:34 AM »

Just as an aside if anyone cares, the idea of "the three wise men" are probably from a song: "We Three Kings"

We three kings of Orient are
Bearing gifts we traverse afar.
Field and fountain, moor and mountain,
Following yonder star.


O star of wonder, star of night,
Star with royal beauty bright,
Westward leading, still proceeding,
Guide us to thy perfect Light.


etc...





In the Bible they are referred to as the Maji, and it doesn't say how many there were.  



Matthew 2
New International Version (NIV)
The Magi Visit the Messiah

2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:

6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
    are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
    who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

The Escape to Egypt

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”[c]

16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

18 “A voice is heard in Ramah,
    weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
    and refusing to be comforted,
    because they are no more.”[d]
The Return to Nazareth

19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt 20 and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child’s life are dead.”

21 So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.
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« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2013, 08:28:56 AM »

Just as an aside if anyone cares, the idea of "the three wise men" are probably from a song: "We Three Kings"

We three kings of Orient are
Bearing gifts we traverse afar.
Field and fountain, moor and mountain,
Following yonder star.


O star of wonder, star of night,
Star with royal beauty bright,
Westward leading, still proceeding,
Guide us to thy perfect Light.


etc...





In the Bible they are referred to as the Maji, and it doesn't say how many there were.  



Matthew 2
New International Version (NIV)
The Magi Visit the Messiah

2 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem 2 and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”

3 When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 When he had called together all the people’s chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:

6 “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
    are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
    who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
7 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. 8 He sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him.”

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. 11 On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. 12 And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

The Escape to Egypt

13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”[c]

16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:

18 “A voice is heard in Ramah,
    weeping and great mourning,
Rachel weeping for her children
    and refusing to be comforted,
    because they are no more.”[d]
The Return to Nazareth

19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt 20 and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who were trying to take the child’s life are dead.”

21 So he got up, took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Having been warned in a dream, he withdrew to the district of Galilee, 23 and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.

wow, awesome Stella, you're right, they never actually said 3 men. I never thought about that. I think because there was 3 different gifts people (including me  Cheesy) assumed they were 3 men. And to think I have read this over 100 times.  Smiley
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