Chiropractors more harm than good?

[Krankenstein]

As someone who has had to go through disc replacement with similar injury to Ronnie and Jay, with atrophy from disc compression, I dont rate them, but maybe it was just my chiro, he completely missed my diagnosis and as a result I have permanent nerve damage, my advice to you or any chiropractor get diagnosed or diagnose someone properly, and that requires MRI, no one can be sure what your injuries are from and a rub down or adjustment is just guessing use technology be thorough, rubbing down, cracking shit and adjustments is fine if you dont have more serious issues, they dont make any money sending you off to MRI, they would rather crack and rub your back a few times than diagnose you. Go to a GP then an orthopedic, if you want an overpriced massage go somewhere else is all I'm saying.

Hey, just a little tidbit for you.  A patient of mine brought her daughter in for some right knee pain (superior to patella and along the inferior-lateral corner).  After some testing I found she has an inflamed Hoffa's fat pad.  In addition, she had a positive Obers test on the  right indicating IT band contracture.  Then the mom mentioned a strange popping in the daughters right foot.  I knew she had a history of ankle sprains, so in the process of examination I felt the popping.  Was either an extensor tendon or a peroneal tendon.  I settled on peroneal tendon.  In addition, the cuboid was sitting more dorsal and so I adjusted that.  Did it take care of the dislocation?  Nope, that wasn't the desired outcome.  In any event, the Dx for this patient :

719.46
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726.79
729.1

Sending her to a podiatrist confirmed my suspicion of dislocation.  They are going to do an ultra sound on her and most likely there is going to be a surgical consult.  Oh, did I mention that in the last couple of months her MD said for her to just ice it if it hurts?

Of course, I really not telling the truth...I didn't diagnose, I just went in, cracked and twisted her up, gave the patient an over priced massage, caused permanent damage, and laughed all the way to the bank.   

[SF1900]

Arent neurosurgeons in school for about 4-5 years of residency, plus an additional 3-4 years of training. Insane!

[Coach is Back!]

Which mod deleted my post and why? This isn't for a chiro, its for an ortho. Please answer the first question.

[Krankenstein]

I see no questions....

[Coach is Back!]

Was asking why my post was deleted, my first post.

[Big Chiro Flex]

Was asking why my post was deleted, my first post.

Repost it bro...let's work through this together.

[deadpan]

i'm assuming you're terribly imbalanced like 90% of weightlifters and probably this is the root cause of your problems, which you should address

for one make sure your back and rear delts are in proportion with your chest and front delts. and no, not arnold proportions. make sure your shoulder girdle is not protracted. http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Posture.html

stop doing flat bench. it's shit. worthless.

do rotator cuff conditioning. with LIGHT weights. don't get 20's and swing em like so many idiots i see in the gym.

[Coach is Back!]

My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it....  some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc  injured area.......


[ Invalid YouTube link ]

What do you think ?




WoooSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHH

This is not in the scope of a chiro, its for an ortho. ROM testing, check for atrophy, pain, winged scap during testing, etc. If ROM is limited with pain, an X-ray first for structural damage then , more than.likely an MRI. If you go to a chiro first and he/she does the same ROM tests w/pain, they should refer out to and ortho.

[ether]

Ever heard of a PET scan? Positron Emission Tomography. Doctors attach radioactive tracers to a glucose (sugar) molecule and inject the patient. Then they use a scan image to see where the glucose is being metabolized the fastest....they know cancer thrives on sugar, so it gives the exact location of the cancer cells. So, that leads us to conclude....WHY THE FUCK AREN'T MORE ONCOLOGISTS STRESSING THE IMPORTANCE OF MINIMIZNG SUGAR AND CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMPTION??? .

I have nothing personal against Chiro's but this post epitomizes the problem with this field.
Stick to manipulating peoples lower backs.

I really hope you never get cancer, but when you do, tell me how your Keto diet is going to cure you.

Pathetic

Oh and by the way, the number of time medical students is spending "in class" is actually being reduced even further. The purpose of medical school is NOT to teach students everything there is to know about medicine, physiology, biology, chemistry etc. etc. etc. It is to teach students the fundamentals of how to think critically. A doctor's real learning comes from the 2 years of clerkship, 1 year of internship, 4 years of residency and 2 to 3 years of fellowship training.

Tell me how much "on the job" teaching did you have before you were cracking peoples spines to cure diabetes?

Most of what is taught in medical school is or will be outdated in 5 years.

Unlike Chiros, doctors use what they have learned in medical school as a base for the future by constantly staying up to date (no pun intended) through reputable peer reviewed journals.

Do you even know what a journal is or have one with an impact factor >2??

[honest]

Krank if you read your replies to my post, you pretty much back up my argument, chiros will treat you along a line of treatment that they can profit out of, I understand thats business and thanks for confirming what I thought.It would be hard to treat someone when your professional view is conflicted by your need to profit, it would be almost second nature i guess to always try and diagnose a problem that can be treated by yourself other than alternative treatment. Your honesty whilst admits a lack of professionalism you usually would expect from medical graduates is greatly appreciated but then again I have to keep in mind your a chiropractor not a medical professional.
 

[buffdnet]

Buffd - so, the allopathic industry has a 100% cure rate?  I have never said not to take drugs.  Show me someone who has been "cured" of rhematoid arthirtis.  Great track record.

 chiro is like christian prayer,
a cure rate of zero.  a scam rate of 100%
great track record indeed.

[Krankenstein]

This is not in the scope of a chiro, its for an ortho. ROM testing, check for atrophy, pain, winged scap during testing, etc. If ROM is limited with pain, an X-ray first for structural damage then , more than.likely an MRI. If you go to a chiro first and he/she does the same ROM tests w/pain, they should refer out to and ortho.

Joe, you couldn't be more wrong.  ROM testing, manual muscle testing, sensory, etc.  Thats neurological testing that is absolutely within the scope of my license.  X-ray is NOT always the initial study that is warranted.  People think you IMMEDIATELY refer to an ortho. 

[Krankenstein]

chiro is like christian prayer,
a cure rate of zero.  a scam rate of 100%
great track record indeed.

I guess all the patients I have helped are just figments of my imagination.  Debating with someone like you is pointless to me.  Why did you not address my point about allopathic industry?  Want me to list off ten things that aren't 100%...or even 50% cured with MD's?  How about the fact that carpal tunnel surgery has the HIGHEST failure rate of any surgery?  I believe it's somewhere in the 60-70% failure rate.  That it is also is the most repeated.  Yeah, we are scammers.   

[Griffith]

Ever heard of a PET scan? Positron Emission Tomography. Doctors attach radioactive tracers to a glucose (sugar) molecule and inject the patient. Then they use a scan image to see where the glucose is being metabolized the fastest....they know cancer thrives on sugar, so it gives the exact location of the cancer cells. So, that leads us to conclude....WHY THE FUCK AREN'T MORE ONCOLOGISTS STRESSING THE IMPORTANCE OF MINIMIZNG SUGAR AND CARBOHYDRATE CONSUMPTION??? .

I eat a lot of vegetables, fruit, oats and some wholegrain bread....how does this fit in?

Or or you referring to really processed carbs and sugars?

[Krankenstein]

Krank if you read your replies to my post, you pretty much back up my argument, chiros will treat you along a line of treatment that they can profit out of, I understand thats business and thanks for confirming what I thought.It would be hard to treat someone when your professional view is conflicted by your need to profit, it would be almost second nature i guess to always try and diagnose a problem that can be treated by yourself other than alternative treatment. Your honesty whilst admits a lack of professionalism you usually would expect from medical graduates is greatly appreciated but then again I have to keep in mind your a chiropractor not a medical professional.
 

I don't have to read my reply as I am the one who wrote it.  Where did I back up your argument?  You claim above about treatment for profit is pretty much not limited to chiro, but to every medical profession.  Hello?  Seriously?  Show me ONE, just ONE medical professional that WON'T treat for profit.  The next time you go to a doctor appointment, ask them what services they will be billing for.  Ask them the codes they will be submitting to your insurance company.  I have seen my own bills when I have gone to a doctor and let me tell you.  The E/M codes they submitted were absolutely incorrect.  Billing out for a 99204 exam on me when they never reached the proper time component, nor satisfied the major components necessary to justify the use of that code.   The example I gave above showed almost the opposite.  I treated the girl one time and referred her to another health professional.  Thats not over treating.  Thats not milking her insurance.  The MD who she saw 2 - 3 times before me kept telling her to "just ice" it.  Hmmm.  Great job diagnosing it on his part.

Please point out my lack of professionalism.  I welcome it.  I challenge you to find it.  Let me tell you something about that visit too.  I came in when my office was normally closed.  I did not bill them for the taping nor the exam.  Something I was well within my right to do.  They were charged for the adjustment which was deemed necessary by me as the medical professional.  I don't recall you being there at the time of service to offer up an alternative opinion.  I do not make any money on her seeing the podiatrist, nor her getting an ultrasound, and certainly not out of the surgery if needed.  

I actually take offense to your insinuation that I had anything other than the patients best interest in mind.  

I have nothing personal against Chiro's but this post epitomizes the problem with this field.
Stick to manipulating peoples lower backs.
I will stick to that, along with wrists, shoulders, necks, ankles, etc

I really hope you never get cancer, but when you do, tell me how your Keto diet is going to cure you.
...and this epitomizes the lack of attention displayed most often on GB.  Did you not just read that cancer cells are obligate users of sugar?  That a very prominent cancer researcher advised me to have my father limit the carbohydrates in his diet.  He is not a chiro, but an MD and PhD.  Also, have you ever wondered why cancer patients are given Ensure?  Ever look at the label?

Pathetic
yes, your reply is

Oh and by the way, the number of time medical students is spending "in class" is actually being reduced even further. The purpose of medical school is NOT to teach students everything there is to know about medicine, physiology, biology, chemistry etc. etc. etc. It is to teach students the fundamentals of how to think critically. A doctor's real learning comes from the 2 years of clerkship, 1 year of internship, 4 years of residency and 2 to 3 years of fellowship training.
Perhaps you mean, the 'amount' of time?  The job of chiro school is not to teach us everything there is to know either.  But, I figured you would know that because you are trying to come across as all knowing about my profession.

Tell me how much "on the job" teaching did you have before you were cracking peoples spines to cure diabetes?
None.  When someone is born with Type 1 diabetes, no adjustment will restore the Islets of Langerhans.  Neither will any surgery or medication.  Are you aware of that?  Also, no adjustment will help with someone reducing excess food intake and getting them to exercise more in order to help them reverse the Type 2 diabetes.  Nor will any surgery.  Sure medications help, but if you correct a diet and start exercising...guess what?  The incidence of Type 2 reduces.  Of course, you knew that too.

Most of what is taught in medical school is or will be outdated in 5 years.
Most?  Wow..pretty bold statement.

Unlike Chiros, doctors use what they have learned in medical school as a base for the future by constantly staying up to date (no pun intended) through reputable peer reviewed journals.
I would like to see you go to your medical doctor and ask them what the last medical journal they read.  You must think they sit there when they don't have patients reading them, don't you?

Do you even know what a journal is or have one with an impact factor >2??
I can name about ten of them just off the top of my head.  Ask your MD next time if he/she can.

[Devon97]

Been to 3 diff chiros in the last 4 years and went to one just 2 days ago, in fact I go right after I get deep tissue massage work for restoration & recovery.

One thing someone posted earlier is that chiros need to stick to cracking backs and stop trying to be trainers, peddling supplements, strength coaches, nutrition experts, etc.

Spin adjustments can offer benefits but if you're a chiro please stick to that. I hate it when a chiro try's to sell me on some new fish oil supplement.

[Krankenstein]

Been to 3 diff chiros in the last 4 years and went to one just 2 days ago, in fact I go right after I get deep tissue massage work for restoration & recovery.

One thing someone posted earlier is that chiros need to stick to cracking backs and stop trying to be trainers, peddling supplements, strength coaches, nutrition experts, etc.

Spin adjustments can offer benefits but if you're a chiro please stick to that. I hate it when a chiro try's to sell me on some new fish oil supplement.

Some have diplomates in S&C as well as nutrition, so why can't they do that?  I believe my experience and education is well served to discuss nutrition with a patient.  I practice what I preach.  Funny thing, sending someone to a Registered Dietitian is even more pointless.  You might as well just say "Eat 60% of your diet from carbohydrates.  Have milk, cheese, nuts, and legumes for your protein.  Make sure you don't get more then 1/2 your bodyweight in protein otherwise you will end up with kidney failure". 

I do agree with you that the whole nutritional stuff at an office is a little out of hand.  Guess what though...my HRT Doc tried to sell me on an 'anti-estrogen' supplement.  Main ingredient : chrysin.  So, I will say it once again...a lot of things people are bashing my profession for is the same stuff done by MD's.

[buffdnet]

 "Debating with someone like you is pointless to me.  Why did you not address my point about allopathic industry?"

because you don't get to control a debates contents or to change the subject at will.
that's the behavior of cult leaders.  and if debating me is pointless then I can fully
expect you will not reply to this.  right?  

[HappyGorilla]

A friend of mine had a stroke from a torn vertebal artery. The first thing they asked him was if he visited a chiropractor.

I have heard too many horror stories, and have always been told to avoid them from my doctors.

Some people swear by them, but I just can't see them doing any good to take a risk using them.

Rather get an MRI, and go from there.

[Krankenstein]

"Debating with someone like you is pointless to me.  Why did you not address my point about allopathic industry?"

because you don't get to control a debates contents or to change the subject at will.
that's the behavior of cult leaders.  and if debating me is pointless then I can fully
expect you will not reply to this.  right?  

What you fully (or partially) expect and what you actually get are two different things.  Don't know if you have learned that in life yet or not.  You don't control a debate either.  I offered a counterpoint to your statement and you avoided it.  Its either from lack of knowlegde on the counter point or the fact that you realize my counterpoint was accurate.  Maybe I should say that avoidance in any form is typical of a cult leader.  So, now we both are cult leaders.  Yay! Oh, and I never once thought I was in control of anything.  On the otherhand, you weren't either.  Have a blessed day.  May god be with you and cure all that ails you.

[Devon97]

Some have diplomates in S&C as well as nutrition, so why can't they do that?  I believe my experience and education is well served to discuss nutrition with a patient.  I practice what I preach.  Funny thing, sending someone to a Registered Dietitian is even more pointless.  You might as well just say "Eat 60% of your diet from carbohydrates.  Have milk, cheese, nuts, and legumes for your protein.  Make sure you don't get more then 1/2 your bodyweight in protein otherwise you will end up with kidney failure". 

I do agree with you that the whole nutritional stuff at an office is a little out of hand.  Guess what though...my HRT Doc tried to sell me on an 'anti-estrogen' supplement.  Main ingredient : chrysin.  So, I will say it once again...a lot of things people are bashing my profession for is the same stuff done by MD's.

Never once did I say someone should go to an RD lol 

I'm all for being well rounded in nutrition & Weight lifting knowledge but when your a chiro stick with cracking backs! HOly smokes the next chiro who thinks they are an authority on strength training and sell supplemeents in their office I"m bolting out the door like a scolded cat.

I swear, chiros can be worse than real doctors sometimes lol

[Krankenstein]

Never once did I say someone should go to an RD lol 

I'm all for being well rounded in nutrition & Weight lifting knowledge but when your a chiro stick with cracking backs! HOly smokes the next chiro who thinks they are an authority on strength training and sell supplemeents in their office I"m bolting out the door like a scolded cat.

I swear, chiros can be worse than real doctors sometimes lol

So someone who registers anonymously on a message board can be better believed they are an expert on strength training?

What about a chiro who has his CSCS cert?  Or a chiro who has powerlifting world records?  Or a chiro that has competic in olympic lifting?  Nope, those guys wouldn't know anything about strength and conditioning.

[Devon97]

My left shoulder its so bad that my whole left arm (muscles) are starting to suffer from it....  some say Chiropractor is the way,while others tell me to stay away from them cause if is a rotator cuff tear it can get worse with some dude pulling,twisting and pushing with a tool,fist etc  injured area.......


[ Invalid YouTube link ]

What do you think ?

Krank & Chiro,

What is your impression of the fruity looking guy in the vid here.
Do you probe your finger around peoples throat with a latex glove on?  
(*I know he was prob releasing TMJ, just busting your balls)

[Devon97]

So someone who registers anonymously on a message board can be better believed they are an expert on strength training?

What about a chiro who has his CSCS cert?  Or a chiro who has powerlifting world records?  Or a chiro that has competic in olympic lifting?  Nope, those guys wouldn't know anything about strength and conditioning.

Not sure how an anonymous poster on a board has anything to do w/ a chiro?

And no the cscs by no means makes someone an authority. 70% of the questions on the exam are about either OLY lifting technique or cardiovascular system.

LOL and heavens no a powerlifter or oly lifter (they're the worst) should not be speaking as an authority about smart strength training ( unless they are from west-side)

[Krankenstein]

Krank & Chiro,

What is your impression of the fruity looking guy in the vid here.
Do you probe your finger around peoples throat with a latex glove on?  
(*I know he was prob releasing TMJ, just busting your balls)

My impression is that a number of techniques I do not recognize (not to say that they arent valid) but primarily I see that the guy is using FAR to much rotation in some of the cervical adjustments.  I personaly would NEVER do the adjustment for the TMJ like that.  I have no desire to stick my hands in a patients mouth (or any other hole for that matter).  Get them to an orthodontist.

Not sure how an anonymous poster on a board has anything to do w/ a chiro?

And no the cscs by no means makes someone an authority. 70% of the questions on the exam are about either OLY lifting technique or cardiovascular system.

LOL and heavens no a powerlifter or oly lifter (they're the worst) should not be speaking as an authority about smart strength training ( unless they are from west-side)

You mentioned a chiro and not being an expert in strength and conditioning.  I was pointing out how many online come across like they are and people listen to them without seeing them.  So, what makes someone an expert on strength and conditioning?