Chiropractors more harm than good?

[Devon97]

My impression is that a number of techniques I do not recognize (not to say that they arent valid) but primarily I see that the guy is using FAR to much rotation in some of the cervical adjustments.  I personaly would NEVER do the adjustment for the TMJ like that.  I have no desire to stick my hands in a patients mouth (or any other hole for that matter).  Get them to an orthodontist.
You mentioned a chiro and not being an expert in strength and conditioning.  I was pointing out how many online come across like they are and people listen to them without seeing them.  So, what makes someone an expert on strength and conditioning?

It's all good.
But to answer your Q as to what makes someone an expert in only the niche of strength & conditioning alone? Do you mean sports performance training? Or training with performance as the only goal - as opposed to aesthetics like bodybuilding? Or just OLY lifting?
Or do you just mean general good advice across the board for exercise?

Please clarify and I'll absolutely provide you an answer. 

[njflex]

go down few threads down iffb pro ken jackson prepares for toronto pro,,he visits chiro the guy is funny looking 'the chiro'but brings some interesting points there,he does some deep tissue ,has the bber stand relaxed back facing him,then hit lat spread,works the area again,again stand relaxed and then lat spread,turn around front lat spread,relaxed pose,he pointed out 1 side off a bit ,overdeveloed front delt on one side and other side rear area a bit off ,i think any of us serious trainer for yrs will be off...krank,chiro,coach are more educated then me  tho,,the vid was interesting tho,,,

[Rami]

stop training so damn much and maybe you wouldn't get so fucked up, athletes have injuries and surgery and treatments all the time to function well, ridiculous

[Hulkotron]

You do the same thing here in these "Chiros suck" threads that you always do in the "CrossFit sucks" threads: someone points out flaws/limitations of chiros and you respond by attacking MDs and pointing out they aren't perfect either.

Your defense of the profession would be a lot more effective if you could instead point out why the criticisms leveled at chiros (many of which in this thread are quite valid) are either invalid, not critical, or being currently improved upon.

[Devon97]

You do the same thing here in these "Chiros suck" threads that you always do in the "CrossFit sucks" threads: someone points out flaws/limitations of chiros and you respond by attacking MDs and pointing out they aren't perfect either.

Your defense of the profession would be a lot more effective if you could instead point out why the criticisms leveled at chiros (many of which in this thread are quite valid) are either invalid, not critical, or being currently improved upon.

Not to take up for or put down Krank,

But in fairness if you go to a ortho w/ back pain they're gonna put you on pain meds and tell you to rest. Where as a chiro will not put you on meds and will actually (usually) aid in active recovery through adjustments, traction, pre-hab, re-hab etc.

[Hulkotron]

Not to take up for or put down Krank,

But in fairness if you go to a ortho w/ back pain they're gonna put you on pain meds and tell you to rest. Where as a chiro will not put you on meds and will actually (usually) aid in active recovery through adjustments, traction, pre-hab, re-hab etc.

Yes modern medicine is almost entirely reactive rather than preventive and heavily emphasizes pharmacology, which are major problems imho.  The biggest part of the problem however is that most people don't take personal responsibility for their own health and instead expect the doctor to be a miracle worker.

[chaos]

Lots of back cracking, rib dislocating, shoulder jerking, neck snapping meltdowns in this thread.

[Krankenstein]

It's all good.
But to answer your Q as to what makes someone an expert in only the niche of strength & conditioning alone? Do you mean sports performance training? Or training with performance as the only goal - as opposed to aesthetics like bodybuilding? Or just OLY lifting?
Or do you just mean general good advice across the board for exercise?

Please clarify and I'll absolutely provide you an answer. 

You made the statement that they come across as experts.  I am asking you who would be the expert.  You weren't specific in your comment, so how can I?

You do the same thing here in these "Chiros suck" threads that you always do in the "CrossFit sucks" threads: someone points out flaws/limitations of chiros and you respond by attacking MDs and pointing out they aren't perfect either.

Your defense of the profession would be a lot more effective if you could instead point out why the criticisms leveled at chiros (many of which in this thread are quite valid) are either invalid, not critical, or being currently improved upon.

Exactly.  Have you ever seen a "MD's are worthless" thread?  No, simply put people think the MD's are without flaw.  Are above criticism.  I accept the fact my profession has some people that really do not belong in it.  That tarnish the name.  The same as Crossfit.  I have never said anything to the contrary.  When someone says that we don't diagnose, that we are glorified massage therapists...how do you expect me to respond other than pointing out personal examples where they are wrong.  People say go to your MD if you want a, b, or c diagnosed while bashing my profession.  That is when I point out the MD profession and the flaws with that.  Someone makes claims that we have no idea what research journals are or clinic reviews...I point out how prevalent they are in my profession.  More than 70% of all chiropractic therapy has research behind it.  Less than 25-30% of all surgical procedures have any research.

Yes modern medicine is almost entirely reactive rather than preventive and heavily emphasizes pharmacology, which are major problems imho.  The biggest part of the problem however is that most people don't take personal responsibility for their own health and instead expect the doctor to be a miracle worker.

Exactly.  Unfortunately a chiro is expected to be a bigger miracle worker.  I speak from expereince on this.  I consistently get people in my office who have been in pain for years and years.  If the pain is gone completely in 2 - 3 visits, the treatment isn't working.  Add to that the patient who I say "you know, if you dropped about 15 - 20 lbs your low back would improve a lot faster".  They won't listen in most case.  Funny thing is that with Obamacare...your MD will be held to a different standard.  If they have too many patients with high BMI's they will actually get reimbursed less.  So, you will either be 'forced' to lose weight or your MD will discharge you so they don't have to risk losing income.

I realize that I should just avoid these kind of threads because it is a never ending thing.  Just like political and religious threads.  Some people will never change their minds even when presented with facts.  

[Voice of Doom]

i've had nothing but good experience with chiros.  Traditional western medicine could only offer me PT, anti-inflammatory and muscle relaxing meds...with the eventuality of surgery.  Chiro's have fixed two sciatic problems and a mid back bulge (all from lifting).  Once a month visit seems to keep that maintained.  All take that cost over spinal fusion any day.

[Devon97]

You made the statement that they come across as experts.  I am asking you who would be the expert.  You weren't specific in your comment, so how can I?
 

Who would be an expert?
2 things:
1) Day to day in the trenches experience
2) Demonstrable success & social proof

In the strength & conditioning industry 3 names that come to mind are:
1) Our own "Coach" here on GB
2) Joe Defranco
3) and these guys www.dtsperformance.com

So someone practicing chiropractic medicine would not be an expert in S&C. But rather should strive to be an expert in Chiro care.

[no one]

my experience so take it for what its worth cause all the horror stories im hearing here are totally contradicting my own experience.

so over the course of the past dunno 20 years of training and repetitive stress i have developed sciatica that attacks my left glute out of no where when im doing something simple as walking, very limited neck movement- i have to turn my whole body, not just my head to look sideways, and it got to the point when i got up from sitting down, or out of bed and stood up i'd have to walk hunched over like an old man fighting lower back pain for the first 10 steps of so so i could straighten up. at this point i was like ok, enough is enough here. this is ridiculous. im falling apart and need to get myself sorted the fuck out cause this is drastically affecting my life.

i started chiro 2 months ago and have been going religiously, starting at 2 sessions a week and then to one now im down to every 10 days. thru visits, and her recommendations of what i should be doing in the gym, i dont have any lower back pain any longer, i can jump out of a seat, out of my car, out of bed with zero pain. i cannot believe it. i feel like a new man in this regard. just this is so amazing to me i'd be ecstatic if it were the only thing good that came out of it.

the sciatica is diminishing to the point i worked a whole shift yesterday and it didnt get me once- its been years since i can say this. im sleeping better than ever before- i used to be a side sleeper and cause of it i could only sleep on my left side. im now starting to be able to sleep well on my right side as well. in the past it just hurt me too much to sleep like that. now im finding my shoulder is adapting more to the position, and my arm doesnt fall asleep like it used to. the neck impingement is still there. that'll take time but i can feel it improving as well. and finally and i know this isnt in my head cause i know my body very well- im getting stronger on my back exercises- i have an imbalance from right to left side. for some reason now im just generating a lot of controlled power thru the first 3-4 reps of a motion. then i feel it start to go back to the way i used to train. i know one day my whole workout will involve contracting my entire back thru the whole range of motion.

when this is over im buying my chiro a thank you card. no shit. i cant believe how much this has given me my life back.

*caveat she is somewhat shocked as to the rapid changes my body is undergoing. says im progressing far faster than normal. so your experience might not mirror mine. but i strongly urge you to find a good one if you havbe anything going on like i do and see what its all about. get your life back bros.

[Coach is Back!]

Joe, you couldn't be more wrong.  ROM testing, manual muscle testing, sensory, etc.  Thats neurological testing that is absolutely within the scope of my license.  X-ray is NOT always the initial study that is warranted.  People think you IMMEDIATELY refer to an ortho. 

No, no you're misunderstanding. ROM, MMT is and should be within your scope and this is by no means a dig on Chiropratic, we have one on staff and getting ready to add a PT and have a great Ortho that I refer my athletes too (at Curland-Jobe) I'm saying if the client/patient fails with pain greater than a 5 in a particular plain and especially if there is "catching" during the test, then IMO (especially shoulder pain) should be referred out to an Ortho for a re-eval, X-ray then if warranted an MRI with or without contrast. It could be anything from RC irritation, to Tendonosis to labral, to a full thickness tear, etc.

I know a lot of Chiro's that insist on an X-ray before treatment just to avoid lawsuits in case they are treating the wrong problem.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

I am going to Vince Goodrum for all my medical needs and concerns.

That's good because I would tell you to go see a doctor or medical professional.  Unlike people like Palumbo, I'm not going to give out medical advice unless I completed medical school.  My degree is in Health Care Management....so if someone like Chiro needs paperwork done, then I'm the man to do your medical billing but that's about all

[bigmc]

That's good because I would tell you to go see a doctor or medical professional.  Unlike people like Palumbo, I'm not going to give out medical advice unless I completed medical school.  My degree is in Health Care Management....so if someone like Chiro needs paperwork done, then I'm the man to do your medical billing but that's about all

is health care management cleaning up beds that have been soiled

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

is health care management cleaning up beds that have been soiled

Health Care Management is essentially the paperwork part of the medical industry....medical billing, translating procedures to medical code, filing paperwork to insurance companies, etc......I made a change from Engineering to have some stability and control over my jobs...plus medical billing can be done from home and freelanced independently, unlike engineering along with simply a higher quantity of jobs

And with ObamaCare in place, my prospects have really gone up....

[King Shizzo]

Health Care Management is essentially the paperwork part of the medical industry....medical billing, translating procedures to medical code, filing paperwork to insurance companies, etc......I made a change from Engineering to have some stability and control over my jobs...plus medical billing can be done from home and freelanced independently, unlike engineering along with simply a higher quantity of jobs

And with ObamaCare in place, my prospects have really gone up....

I think you are a pathological liar.

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

I think you are a pathological liar.

Really.....please elaborate...

[Big Chiro Flex]

my experience so take it for what its worth cause all the horror stories im hearing here are totally contradicting my own experience.

so over the course of the past dunno 20 years of training and repetitive stress i have developed sciatica that attacks my left glute out of no where when im doing something simple as walking, very limited neck movement- i have to turn my whole body, not just my head to look sideways, and it got to the point when i got up from sitting down, or out of bed and stood up i'd have to walk hunched over like an old man fighting lower back pain for the first 10 steps of so so i could straighten up. at this point i was like ok, enough is enough here. this is ridiculous. im falling apart and need to get myself sorted the fuck out cause this is drastically affecting my life.

i started chiro 2 months ago and have been going religiously, starting at 2 sessions a week and then to one now im down to every 10 days. thru visits, and her recommendations of what i should be doing in the gym, i dont have any lower back pain any longer, i can jump out of a seat, out of my car, out of bed with zero pain. i cannot believe it. i feel like a new man in this regard. just this is so amazing to me i'd be ecstatic if it were the only thing good that came out of it.

the sciatica is diminishing to the point i worked a whole shift yesterday and it didnt get me once- its been years since i can say this. im sleeping better than ever before- i used to be a side sleeper and cause of it i could only sleep on my left side. im now starting to be able to sleep well on my right side as well. in the past it just hurt me too much to sleep like that. now im finding my shoulder is adapting more to the position, and my arm doesnt fall asleep like it used to. the neck impingement is still there. that'll take time but i can feel it improving as well. and finally and i know this isnt in my head cause i know my body very well- im getting stronger on my back exercises- i have an imbalance from right to left side. for some reason now im just generating a lot of controlled power thru the first 3-4 reps of a motion. then i feel it start to go back to the way i used to train. i know one day my whole workout will involve contracting my entire back thru the whole range of motion.

when this is over im buying my chiro a thank you card. no shit. i cant believe how much this has given me my life back.

*caveat she is somewhat shocked as to the rapid changes my body is undergoing. says im progressing far faster than normal. so your experience might not mirror mine. but i strongly urge you to find a good one if you havbe anything going on like i do and see what its all about. get your life back bros.

Thanks for Sharing your experience brother. I experienced the same exact thing when I was 19. I had the same amazing experience you did, that's why I decided to go to Chiro school and make this my pofession.

 My doc/mentor is seeing about 500 patients a week. He's already working 10 hour days just to get every appointment in, and he's finally at the point that he can't accept any new patients because he simply doesn't have enough time. Whenever I hang out in the office with him and observe, all I hear, for 10 hours a day, are stories like yours. That's why Ive dedicated my life to this profession. I've seen it help too many people. So much So that Its not even a choice for me now, I know this is what I HAVE to do.

[Big Chiro Flex]

I eat a lot of vegetables, fruit, oats and some wholegrain bread....how does this fit in?

Or or you referring to really processed carbs and sugars?

Though it's not the best nutritional route for bodybuilding purposes which require high carb intake, a paleo type diet is a pretty optimal choice as far as anti-cancer diets are concerned. (but bread is terrible, all of it.) I'm young and healthy and still love bodybuilding as my hobby, but i know there will come a time when I lose the desire to "do battle on stage" and turn my diet into a lower carb/paleo diet.

I would recommend keeping as much alkalinizing foods and beverages in your diet as possible. It's very easy. And besides the anti-cancer properties and anti-inflammatory benefits, you will look and feel better and have better workouts.

[no one]

Thanks for Sharing your experience brother. I experienced the same exact thing when I was 19. I had the same amazing experience you did, that's why I decided to go to Chiro school and make this my pofession.

 My doc/mentor is seeing about 500 patients a week. He's already working 10 hour days just to get every appointment in, and he's finally at the point that he can't accept any new patients because he simply doesn't have enough time. Whenever I hang out in the office with him and observe, all I hear, for 10 hours a day, are stories like yours. That's why Ive dedicated my life to this profession. I've seen it help too many people. So much So that Its not even a choice for me now, I know this is what I HAVE to do.

props dude it's great to hear someone say they entered a profession to truly give of themselves and help others. it's people like you. who do things for the same reason, that make this world a good place. keep a it dude. respect.

[Big Chiro Flex]

I have nothing personal against Chiro's but this post epitomizes the problem with this field.
Stick to manipulating peoples lower backs.

I really hope you never get cancer, but when you do, tell me how your Keto diet is going to cure you.

Pathetic

Oh and by the way, the number of time medical students is spending "in class" is actually being reduced even further. The purpose of medical school is NOT to teach students everything there is to know about medicine, physiology, biology, chemistry etc. etc. etc. It is to teach students the fundamentals of how to think critically. A doctor's real learning comes from the 2 years of clerkship, 1 year of internship, 4 years of residency and 2 to 3 years of fellowship training.

Tell me how much "on the job" teaching did you have before you were cracking peoples spines to cure diabetes?

Most of what is taught in medical school is or will be outdated in 5 years.

Unlike Chiros, doctors use what they have learned in medical school as a base for the future by constantly staying up to date (no pun intended) through reputable peer reviewed journals.

Do you even know what a journal is or have one with an impact factor >2??

LOL

You should probable re-write this, especially after you got your ass handed to you by Krankenstein.

You clearly show a tremendous lack of knowledge about my field, it's peer-reviewed journals, or how to make insightful posts.

Lastly, please show me where i am wrong regarding sugar, and cancer.  You clearly haven't spent much time researching it. My points are not even debatable. You will realize this once you dig into a few books and spend some hours on pubmed. It scares me to think that you are even arguing with me about this and you could possibly be treating cancer patients one day without discussing this  

[chaos]

Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?

[Big Chiro Flex]

Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?

Depends. Since it most likely a maritime injury during your tenure with the Royal Ugandan Navy, I'm guessing your HMO wouldn't cover our treatment.

[Krankenstein]

Who would be an expert?
2 things:
1) Day to day in the trenches experience
2) Demonstrable success & social proof

In the strength & conditioning industry 3 names that come to mind are:
1) Our own "Coach" here on GB
2) Joe Defranco
3) and these guys www.dtsperformance.com

So someone practicing chiropractic medicine would not be an expert in S&C. But rather should strive to be an expert in Chiro care.

I am glad you clarified that.  I would now ask this.  Do these chiro's say they are experts or is that just a descriptor thrown out by you by what they say?  Would someone who has been through many years of #1 and #2, then decided to become a chiro, still be considered an expert?

No, no you're misunderstanding. ROM, MMT is and should be within your scope and this is by no means a dig on Chiropratic, we have one on staff and getting ready to add a PT and have a great Ortho that I refer my athletes too (at Curland-Jobe) I'm saying if the client/patient fails with pain greater than a 5 in a particular plain and especially if there is "catching" during the test, then IMO (especially shoulder pain) should be referred out to an Ortho for a re-eval, X-ray then if warranted an MRI with or without contrast. It could be anything from RC irritation, to Tendonosis to labral, to a full thickness tear, etc.

I know a lot of Chiro's that insist on an X-ray before treatment just to avoid lawsuits in case they are treating the wrong problem.

My apologies then Joe, I misunderstood.  I don't think the term re-eval would be appropriate but rather a second opinion.  There are many orthopoedic tests that are simply just "pain present" dependent.  Some are cessation of pain dependent (Bakody's vs. Reverse Bakody's).  Any time you aren't 100% sure of your diagnosis, you refer out or do something to confirm or deny it.  In my opinion I take issue with a chiro who insists on an x-ray prior to treatment just to avoid a lawsuit.  There is no "medical necessity" in that.  Patients can deny any services they want.  Most don't understand this.  You may be discharged from care with that doctor, but you are in charge of what is done to you.

Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?

No, thank you very much....there is the door.

[King Shizzo]

Would seeing one of you chiropractic quacks help with my elbow?

Try lifting weights, not In & Out burgers.