Author Topic: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early  (Read 6093 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2013, 07:58:38 PM »
Remember the Radio Shack TRS-80 computer? My grade school had that. We upgraded to Commodore VIC 20, then Commodore 64, then the 128.

And, back in the day, I only knew a handful of people with cellphones. And they had those big Zack-Morris-Saved-By-The-Bell deals, the size of a quart of milk.

On the surface it may appear that you have a point. But if we bother to even scratch at the surface a tiny little bit, your point flakes off like a day-old ketchup stain.

First of all, the TRS-80 was actually quite expensive at approximately $3,000 2013 dollars - hardly an everyday purchase for an average American. Computers at the time were affordable, in the sense that a household could afford to buy one, but by no means were they widely so not were they an impulse purchase. Additionally, with the exception of a small run-in with the FCC in connection with interference from the TRS-80 Model I few – if any – regulatory roadblocks stood in the way of Tandy, which is a big difference between them and Tesla.

The situation isn't different with cell phones: they were also ridiculously expensive for a long time and, indeed, prices of cell phone ownership remained – some might say remains – extremely high even after the price of handsets began dropping once you factor in the cost of the wireless service (without which the phone was useless).

Tesla must spend massive amounts of money to not only develop not only the car but the technology, which it must then spend more money certify (by passing a series of tests mandated by the government) before it can actually put a single vehicle on the road. It may seem simple in principle - some potatoes for the battery, electric motors, a pound of copper for the wire and... TADA! an electric car is born. But it really isn't that simple.

So what is your gripe? That the Tesla costs a lot? Do not forget that the Tesla is targeting a segment of the luxury car market - a segment which their vehicle appears poised to do well in when compared with rivals like Audi, Mercedes Benz and BMW which charge similar amounts for their vehicles and which affluent consumers are, apparently, willing to spend.

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2013, 08:33:01 PM »
I will say, it is a nice car.

sync pulse

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2013, 10:28:58 PM »
The present state of electric cars is such:

While it is true that the Tesla can drive very spritely...there is a caveat;

Chemical batteries can not carry enough energy in a small enough/light enough package so that the car can have a range comparable to internal combustion.

The game changer for electric cars will be the development of a superconducting torus that operates at the temperature of liquid nitrogen or above (liquid helium is too expensive), and that can be installed under the hood of a car.  This device will allow the storage of energy in densities comparable to a tank of gasoline.  Such a car would have driving characteristics and range indistinguishable from a gas car.
 
It will probably also sound like a blender.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #54 on: May 28, 2013, 12:08:02 AM »
The present state of electric cars is such:

While it is true that the Tesla can drive very spritely...there is a caveat;

Chemical batteries can not carry enough energy in a small enough/light enough package so that the car can have a range comparable to internal combustion.

The game changer for electric cars will be the development of a superconducting torus that operates at the temperature of liquid nitrogen or above (liquid helium is too expensive), and that can be installed under the hood of a car.  This device will allow the storage of energy in densities comparable to a tank of gasoline.  Such a car would have driving characteristics and range indistinguishable from a gas car.
 
It will probably also sound like a blender.
and then, most likely, you still have to charge it with electricity produced from coal or nuclear.

avxo

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #55 on: May 28, 2013, 12:27:38 AM »
and then you still have to charge is with electricity produced from coal or nuclear.

Even if that's the case (you left out other options, but let's not quibble) why is that a problem?

Coal plants get a bad rap but per Watt they likely produce only slightly more of the "bad stuff" compared to a modern ICE - and even then they produce different kinds of bad stuff. Additionally they are almost certainly easier to upgrade and retrofit with new and improved parts increasing efficiency and reducing emissions; that cannot easily be done with vehicles, unless we mandate that everyone must buy a new car when better tech comes along.

Nuclear plants are much better of course, although there is the issue of spent fuel (which could have been partially solved by now if we had Yucca Mountain) at least until next-generation reactor designs, which dramatically reduce the amount of tranuranics in the waste are finally built and operated.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #56 on: May 28, 2013, 12:48:07 AM »
Even if that's the case (you left out other options, but let's not quibble) why is that a problem?

Coal plants get a bad rap but per Watt they likely produce only slightly more of the "bad stuff" compared to a modern ICE - and even then they produce different kinds of bad stuff. Additionally they are almost certainly easier to upgrade and retrofit with new and improved parts increasing efficiency and reducing emissions; that cannot easily be done with vehicles, unless we mandate that everyone must buy a new car when better tech comes along.

Nuclear plants are much better of course, although there is the issue of spent fuel (which could have been partially solved by now if we had Yucca Mountain) at least until next-generation reactor designs, which dramatically reduce the amount of tranuranics in the waste are finally built and operated.

I left out the other stuff because I didn't want to ramble on with a long post nobody would read.  Of course there are other sources but coal and nuclear constitute the majority of electrical production so I left it at that.  Of course some of it comes from wind, water and solar and a person could fill their back yard with solar panels to charge their new Tesla lol...

On the side, I'm totally ok with coal.  It's way less of a risk than nuclear.

sync pulse

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #57 on: May 28, 2013, 12:51:08 AM »
Nuclear plants are much better of course, although there is the issue of spent fuel (which could have been partially solved by now if we had Yucca Mountain)

Reprocess waste into new fuel rods...this greatly reduces waste volume and makes the present supply of fissile last much longer.
The new fuel rods can be formulated to be resistant to diversion.

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #58 on: May 28, 2013, 05:58:59 AM »
and then, most likely, you still have to charge it with electricity produced from coal or nuclear.


WRONG!!  The vast majority of owners use solar and wind panels to charge their cars....that's the purpose of electric cars....to basically have free fuel
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #59 on: May 28, 2013, 06:00:04 AM »

WRONG!!  The vast majority of owners use solar and wind panels to charge their cars....that's the purpose of electric cars....to basically have free fuel

How long will that take?   LOL - charge the car for 3 days to drive for 30 minutes ?     

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #60 on: May 28, 2013, 06:09:43 AM »
How long will that take?   LOL - charge the car for 3 days to drive for 30 minutes ?      


Solar Panels are a lot more powerful than they use to be.....they can power a car faster than plugging it into a household outlet..usually only a few hours for Tesla....and cars will run much longer than 30 minutes...even the electric cars built in the 1800's lasted much longer....


Remember that this isn't "new technology" to be honest and you don't have to buy a Tesla.  The majority of electric cars are built in someone's garage

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Soul Crusher

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #61 on: May 28, 2013, 06:10:25 AM »

Solar Panels are a lot more powerful than they use to be.....they can power a car faster than plugging it into a household outlet..usually only a few hours....and cars will run much longer than 30 minutes...even the electric cars built in the 1800's lasted much longer....


Remember that this isn't "new technology" to be honest and you don't have to buy a Tesla.  The majority of electric cars are built in someone's garage



And WTF and i supposed to do in that goCart? 

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #62 on: May 28, 2013, 06:50:24 AM »
And WTF and i supposed to do in that goCart? 


Its actually a 3 wheel electric motorcycle built for about 1600 bucks....just an tiny example of what can be done out there.  Some people simply convert old cars into electric vehicles, others build their own vehicle...you can get all the parts you need at EV-West.com.  
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2013, 06:52:22 AM »

Its actually a 3 wheel electric motorcycle built for about 1600 bucks....just an tiny example of what can be done out there.  Some people simply convert old cars into electric vehicles, others build their own vehicle...you can get all the parts you need at EV-West.com.  

uummm - people need to be able to carry shit around too, tailgate, passengers, etc. 

avxo

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2013, 08:44:46 AM »
I left out the other stuff because I didn't want to ramble on with a long post nobody would read.  Of course there are other sources but coal and nuclear constitute the majority of electrical production so I left it at that.  Of course some of it comes from wind, water and solar and a person could fill their back yard with solar panels to charge their new Tesla lol...

Actually, nuclear is a distant third - coal and natural gas together account for over 60% of the power we produce. Check out http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3 if interested.

Nuclear would be much higher if it wasn't for the fact that the government hasn't granted a single license for a new nuclear power plant, coupled with a largely uninformed public that is afraid of everything from cell phone towers to fluoride in the water.
 

On the side, I'm totally ok with coal.  It's way less of a risk than nuclear.

A nuclear power plant isn't unsafe. The new fourth generation designs, when built and properly operated will likely pose a smaller risk than other energy generating plants, including coal.


Reprocess waste into new fuel rods...this greatly reduces waste volume and makes the present supply of fissile last much longer.
The new fuel rods can be formulated to be resistant to diversion.

No doubt that reprocessing can reduce the amounts of high-level waste. Counterintuitively, it's not always cost-effective, but that's only one factor to consider.

I am curious homer, what "formulation" do you believe avoids the diversion problem? Let's ignore the actinide byproducts and focus only on Plutonium. Unless you reprocess it, you need to deal with it as it is high-level waste that will gay radioactive for a very, very long time. Reprocessing it. Is expensive and raises diversion issues. So... What's your solution?

WRONG!!  The vast majority of owners use solar and wind panels to charge their cars....that's the purpose of electric cars....to basically have free fuel

Under ideal conditions, the earth receives about 1kW/m2 of energy from the sun. Let's assume you can, somehow, get 1kW/m2 for five hours per day every day. Let's also assume that your Caliber-branded solar panels are 25% efficient (i.e.: amazing) and that you have 10 m2 of area and panels to fill it.

Would you be so kind as to do quick calculations and tell me how much it would cost to get the same amount of electricity from the grid and how long it would take to recoup your initial investment in the system?

Hugo Chavez

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2013, 08:51:50 AM »

WRONG!!  The vast majority of owners use solar and wind panels to charge their cars....that's the purpose of electric cars....to basically have free fuel
hello dumbass lol... I seriously doubt the majority of Tesla owners fuel their batteries from their own wind or solar power...  it doesn't quite work that way unless you're off the grid, and if you are off the grid, more power to you lol, but most people are not including the types buying Teslas.

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2013, 11:03:02 AM »

WRONG!!  The vast majority of owners use solar and wind panels to charge their cars....that's the purpose of electric cars....to basically have free fuel

Except when you consider how expensive the necessary amount of solar panels and/or wind turbines are in addition to the cost of the EV itself.




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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2013, 12:33:09 PM »
Says the guy who believes in talking snakes and the ark. You do this a lot, avoid actually commenting on how stupid your argument is when exposed. You then will usually cite an example which is not central to the argument (cherry pick). Here you have chosen some nonsense about how people were wrong about one thing (planet freezing, not sure wtf you are getting on with) as if it invalidates this argument. If it's evolution you will bring up the peppered moths regardless of the points raised. You are ignorant.


lol.  You mention "talking snakes and the ark," then accuse McWay of talking about things that have nothing to do with the topic?  Talk about irony.   

And do you realize how often you call people stupid on this board?  Must be tough being the smartest person in the room all time, no? 

Vince G, CSN MFT

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2013, 05:42:03 AM »
hello dumbass lol... I seriously doubt the majority of Tesla owners fuel their batteries from their own wind or solar power...  it doesn't quite work that way unless you're off the grid, and if you are off the grid, more power to you lol, but most people are not including the types buying Teslas.


A lot of them are....the vast majority in the European nations where gas runs over 10 dollars a fucking gallon!!  Has nothing really to do with off the grid....when you have gas running that high, its more than enough to just say fuck it.....


Prices will be like that here very soon.  Personally, I'd never buy a Tesla as its a luxury car but eventually these cars will be made much more affordable.  Things are getting to the point where some people are building steam powered cars again....crazy shit
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2013, 05:43:13 AM »

A lot of them are....the vast majority in the European nations where gas runs over 10 dollars a fucking gallon!!  Has nothing really to do with off the grid....when you have gas running that high, its more than enough to just say fuck it.....


Prices will be like that here very soon.  Personally, I'd never buy a Tesla as its a luxury car but eventually these cars will be made much more affordable.  Things are getting to the point where some people are building steam powered cars again....crazy shit


Costs that much due to taxes to fund the socialist welfare state you tool. 

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2013, 05:50:02 AM »

Costs that much due to taxes to fund the socialist welfare state you tool. 


Gas prices have nothing to do with Obama.  The oil companies control how much it cost and they'll raise it as high as its needed to where it won't piss off people not to use it.  The UK prices are high because most people ride bicycles or use the train system so its not needed in most communities.

That's why I've been working to get off the grid and have a home with substainable power....because its only a matter of time where prices get to be too much to handle


BTW....
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Soul Crusher

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #71 on: May 29, 2013, 05:51:00 AM »

Gas prices have nothing to do with Obama.  The oil companies control how much it cost and they'll raise it as high as its needed to where it won't piss off people not to use it.  The UK prices are high because most people ride bicycles or use the train system so its not needed in most communities.

That's why I've been working to get off the grid and have a home with substainable power....because its only a matter of time where prices get to be too much to handle


BTW....



And Europe is a FNG disaster. 


dario73

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #72 on: May 29, 2013, 06:29:29 AM »

Gas prices have nothing to do with Obama.  

No. According to Democrats, gas prices have everything to do with who is in the White House. The Democrats stated time and time again that Bush was responsible. They cried over and over again how gasoline was high under the Republican president. Even Obama and Hillary Clinton chimed in.




Democrats and their idiotic supporters don't get to change the basis of the argument (an argument created by Democrats) just because it is a Democrat in the office and a black face staring back from the TV. Excuses such as "its just politics" doesn't cut it. Democrats blamed everything that was going wrong on President Bush. Democrats did that. You can't take it back now!! Therefore, Democrats and the useless community organizer Hussein Obama are at fault for the CURRENT high price of gasoline and the bad economy.




Vince G, CSN MFT

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #73 on: May 29, 2013, 06:32:36 AM »
No. According to Democrats, gas prices have everything to do with who is in the White House. The Democrats stated time and time again that Bush was responsible. They cried over and over again how gasoline was high under the Republican president. Even Obama and Hillary Clinton chimed in.




Democrats and their idiotic supporters don't get to change the basis of the argument (an argument created by Democrats) just because it is a Democrat in the office and a black face staring back in the TV. Excuses such as "its just politics" doesn't cut it. Democrats blamed everything that was going wrong on President Bush. Democrats did that. You can't take it back now!! Therefore, Democrats and the useless community organizer Hussein Obama are at fault for the CURRENT high price of gasoline and the bad economy.






No...politicans use gas prices for election purposes......all the time when someone is running, the first thing that spews from their lips are... GAS PRICES ARE TOO HIGH........


Its as predictable as the "War on Terror, 9-11, Global Warming, Gun Rights, Abortion, etc......its all a bunch of bullshit
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dario73

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Re: Tesla Motors fully repays $465 million federal loan nine years early
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2013, 06:55:23 AM »

No...politicans use gas prices for election purposes......all the time when someone is running, the first thing that spews from their lips are... GAS PRICES ARE TOO HIGH........


Its as predictable as the "War on Terror, 9-11, Global Warming, Gun Rights, Abortion, etc......its all a bunch of bullshit

It doesn't matter if it's BS. Democrats were big proponents for setting this standard. Specifically Democrats like Hillary and Obama. Therefore, the same BS argument SHOULD be used against them. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I am sure there were people on this board who at that time supported that line of thinking. They shouldn't get upset when Obama is held to the same standard that Democrats set for Bush and the Republicans. Whether it's BS or not.