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Butterbean
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« on: August 03, 2013, 09:00:37 AM »

Happy birthday!


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« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 09:57:28 AM »

AHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!!!  Nice!

Thank You!!
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Getbig!


« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 12:38:30 PM »

Happy Birthday, brotha!    Grin
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 03:52:26 PM »

One day closer to meeting our Lord and creator. That's the way I look at it every day now that I get older. I stopped celebrating birthdays since I became Muslim. The scary thing is how time goes by faster and faster.
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 07:06:40 PM »

One day closer to meeting our Lord and creator. That's the way I look at it every day now that I get older. I stopped celebrating birthdays since I became Muslim. The scary thing is how time goes by faster and faster.

If you look forward to meeting your Lord and creator why aren't you putting your self in situations where you could die? You know... to expedite your meeting with him. I'll tell you why, because you are a damn hypocrite.

Also, happy birthday Man of Steel!
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« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 07:38:09 PM »

You never make sense with your anger towards God axvo. You never better, prove or provide anything but you jest about everything.

We are given life to live and not to end it. And this life is not eternal but the after life is.

You were once a helpless child nurtured by your mother, now you are a grown ass arrogant and proud but sooner than later you will be a helpless old man waiting for the grave to be your bed.

“Be in this world as though you were a stranger or a traveler/wayfarer.”
Ibn ‘Umar used to say:
“When evening comes, do not expect (to live till) morning, and when morning comes, do not expect (to live till) evening. Take from your health (a preparation) for your illness, and from your life for your death.”

[Al-Bukhari]
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« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 08:07:15 PM »

You never make sense with your anger towards God axvo. You never better, prove or provide anything but you jest about everything.

We are given life to live and not to end it. And this life is not eternal but the after life is.

You were once a helpless child nurtured by your mother, now you are a grown ass arrogant and proud but sooner than later you will be a helpless old man waiting for the grave to be your bed.

“Be in this world as though you were a stranger or a traveler/wayfarer.”
Ibn ‘Umar used to say:
“When evening comes, do not expect (to live till) morning, and when morning comes, do not expect (to live till) evening. Take from your health (a preparation) for your illness, and from your life for your death.”

[Al-Bukhari]

I'm not angry at all towards "God" - being angry against a figment of other people's imagination would be silly. But I am genuinely curious: if you really believe that when you die you will get to meet God and live in a paradise which wil make this life look like hell then why are you still alive? Why not off yourself?

As for waiting for the grave, see I don't wish to die - I desperately want to live as long as I can be wise I love life and realize this is my one and only chance to live. I realize that once I die, it's over. No heaven, no afterlife, no judgement and no second chances.

You, on the other hand, just go through this life waiting to die so you can experience something better...

Who's stupid, again?
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 10:04:20 PM »

Ask yourself that question. Since you think either one should end himself to reach the afterlife or in your case you have no purpose but to materially use, dispose and be disposed of for a fixed period of time.

I feel sorry for you, but I am not out here to convert you or make you believe or any of that. You will be accountable to God on the day of judgment. Spare me the reply of "accountable to an imaginary person, I am only accountable to myself" which you already have on shotgun reload

Do you think you made yourself? Or do you think you come from nothing? Or maybe you are a darwinist/evolution theory believer. We all know we come from our parents ad nauseum and then what? Darwinism? Evolution theory? Coming from primates (monkies), rodents (Rats?) then sea creatures then an accident? No I don't believe in that. I believe in God who created us and gave us existence.
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 02:19:43 AM »

Ask yourself that question. Since you think either one should end himself to reach the afterlife or in your case you have no purpose but to materially use, dispose and be disposed of for a fixed period of time.

No, that's not what I think. I'm just curious why you wouldn't want to get to the afterlife you think is so very much better than this life as fast as possible. Pity you won't answer what should be a very simple question.


I feel sorry for you, but I am not out here to convert you or make you believe or any of that. You will be accountable to God on the day of judgment. Spare me the reply of "accountable to an imaginary person, I am only accountable to myself" which you already have on shotgun reload

If I have to bribed (or threatened) into being a good person, then I don't think my goodness matters. If it takes the promise of heaven (or a threat) for you to act like a good person then, with respect, you aren't a good person; just a good actor.


Do you think you made yourself? Or do you think you come from nothing?

Oh boy, here we go with the silly questions... I don't think I made myself anymore than you think you did. Nor do I think I came from nothing. You should know better than to ask me these sorts of questions. I'm a scientist and a rational man... You should already know my answers.

 By the way, I wonder what comes next. Some bit about how we're monkeys I'll bet.

Or maybe you are a darwinist/evolution theory believer. We all know we come from our parents ad nauseum and then what? Darwinism? Evolution theory? Coming from primates (monkies), rodents (Rats?) then sea creatures then an accident?

Yes, I do subscribe to the theory of evolution and natural selection. The scientific evidence for it is overwhelming. It's conceivable that there are flaws with those theories, but science deals with that just fine. If a flaw is discovered then the theory is amended to correct the flaw or account for the new evidence and is then tested again, using facts and reality as the final arbiter. Infinitely better than asking some Imam to consult a book written by an uneducated sheep-herder using "information" gleaned in supernatural ways using unknowable means.



No I don't believe in that.

Whether you believe it or not, the facts of reality are what they are and they are not going to magically change to accommodate your beliefs.


I believe in God who created us and gave us existence.

Great. But since you'be already asserted that everything requires a creator, then who create your creator? It's a simple question... Please note that you've already boxed yourself in by saying that everything requires a creator. You can't just arbitrarily exempt your deity.

The fact is, Ahmed, that your religion (as with all religions) explains nothing. Saying "magic!" explains nothing. Religion didn't give you modern medicine, computers, a much improved standard of living or the many other things that you enjoy while you worship the figment of someone's imagination while performing superstitious rituals.

Believe if you must, but don't try to pass off your faith as something grounded in reason. Faith and reason are mutually exclusive. A rose, by any other name, is still a rose. And you, Sir, are a mystic.

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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2013, 05:46:21 AM »

You gotta love getbig!!
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2013, 09:34:14 AM »

Sooo basically you believe you come from primate (monkies) that come from rodents (rats) that come from sea creatures that come from an accidient and chemical hoo haa that come from nothing.

Okay got it. Cool. Good luck with that. Didn't need the long response to sugar it up.
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2013, 09:39:26 AM »

Sooo basically you believe you come from primate (monkies) that come from rodents (rats) that come from sea creatures that come from an accidient and chemical hoo haa that come from nothing.

Okay got it. Cool. Good luck with that. Didn't need the long response to sugar it up.

Where did your god come from?
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2013, 08:37:52 PM »

Where did your god come from?

God is eternal and has no beginning or end.
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2013, 12:15:20 AM »

God is eternal and has no beginning or end.

So... God is eternal and has no beginning or end. But the Universe cannot? Why?

Why do you require a creator for the universe but do not require your creator to be created?

And, ultimately, what does positing a creator get you? Nothing - you just avoid the questions.
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« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2013, 05:20:58 PM »

So you are proposing the universe is eternal instead of God. I say otherwise.

I am not here to convert you or make you believe. To me it makes far more sense while to you it doesn't. And to you it makes sense the universe can be eternal instead? So be it.

To me the universe  has a beginning and an end and is not eternal. However God is eternal and has no beginning or end and is the creator of it all.
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2013, 07:42:14 PM »

So you are proposing the universe is eternal instead of God. I say otherwise.

I am not here to convert you or make you believe. To me it makes far more sense while to you it doesn't. And to you it makes sense the universe can be eternal instead? So be it.

To me the universe  has a beginning and an end and is not eternal. However God is eternal and has no beginning or end and is the creator of it all.

No, I'm asking why you think that the Universe requires a creator and God doesn't. Seems very self-contradictory. Again, this is the sort of question to which "faith!" is a valid answer.

I just wanted to understand why you think that a creator is needed for one thing but not another.
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2013, 11:40:05 PM »

Not contradictory at all. Something or someone has to be eternal. So it's either the universe or a creator that has to be eternal.

The whole who created the creator that created the creator that created the creator ad nauseous doesn't work. There has to be a point of origin. And that point of origin has to be eternal.

It's just plain logic.

So either the truth in the matter is the universe is eternal and always was and always will be... or there is an eternal creator who always was and always will be and he created what we have.

To you the universe being eternal makes sense, to me it doesn't. To me a creator makes sense due to the observable and rational things we can conclude around us.

Unlike the precept that the universe is eternal and that whatever we are, whatever is around us is all one big accident a sequence of smaller accidents, and it all came in place perfectly to be as it is.
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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2013, 07:09:13 PM »

Not contradictory at all. Something or someone has to be eternal. So it's either the universe or a creator that has to be eternal.

Well, at least we agree on something: the Universe itself can, conceivably, be eternal. That's an important first step.


So either the truth in the matter is the universe is eternal and always was and always will be... or there is an eternal creator who always was and always will be and he created what we have.

I would argue that deity or not, it is, since time is a property of the Universe and the notion of "eternal" is meaningless when divorced from time.


To you the universe being eternal makes sense, to me it doesn't. To me a creator makes sense due to the observable and rational things we can conclude around us.

I would be seriously interested in having a rational discussion about these observable things that lead you to that conclusion. I don't seek to convince you that you are wrong; I just really want to understand what things you believe indicate a creator.


Unlike the precept that the universe is eternal and that whatever we are, whatever is around us is all one big accident a sequence of smaller accidents, and it all came in place perfectly to be as it is.

I hate to break it to you but things aren't really all that perfect.

Look at the human knee: it's a truly horrible "design" that any competent designer would have avoided.

Look at the human neck: a crucial part of our anatomy that is completely devoid of protection and mounted on a relatively fragile column of small bones.

Look at the inability of our species to survive outside a very narrow range of climates, to say nothing about different atmospheres.

I could go on. But the point is that I see no evidence of design. And certainly not a perfect one.
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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2013, 08:11:24 PM »

You are just blind man. Look at the brain how it's suspended in our head. Look at the lungs and heart position, the liver position. Look at the central nervous system, look at the skeletal system. What knees are not 'perfect' to you? Oh please enlighten me what you've designed that you haven't copied.

And no we do not agree on anything as far as the universe being eternal, I said you believe that, I don't believe that. The universe had a beginning and will have an end and only God is eternal and created the universe and will destroy it as well at a set time. This temporary world is just that temporary.
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2013, 09:00:52 PM »

You are just blind man. Look at the brain how it's suspended in our head. Look at the lungs and heart position, the liver position. Look at the central nervous system, look at the skeletal system. What knees are not 'perfect' to you? Oh please enlighten me what you've designed that you haven't copied.

Oi... Let's see.

I look at the brain and I see a very critical organ (arguably, the most critical) that is very sensitive to rapid acceleration. It is being confined in a bony box, against which it can impact and receive significant damage from, buffered and protected only by a really tiny amount of cerebrospinal fluid and connected by a brain stem that is far too easy to injure which leads to a collection of very exposed nerves that are a single point of (catastrophic) failure. I look at the brain and I see a great computation device but no evidence of design.

I look at the heart and I see a pump with moderate pumping efficiency. A pump that constitutes a single point of failure and contains parts that leak – as all heart valves do – and wear out. I look at the heart and I see A pump, but no evidence of design.

I look at the lungs and I see organs that can collapse if punctured, leading to a dramatic decrease in oxygen availability and requiring advanced medical intervention. I see a system meant to inhale oxygen that shares a pathway for the ingestion of solid and liquid nutrients which can result in choking and death. I see a system meant to ensure that blood is oxygenated that relies not on measuring oxygen but carbon dioxide which can have fatal consequences as someone can suffocate without knowing it. I look at lungs and I see a great gas-exchange system, but no evidence of design.

Not a single thing about the human body points to an intelligent designer, and a million things point to evolution. That you don't see that doesn't mean much.


And no we do not agree on anything as far as the universe being eternal, I said you believe that, I don't believe that. The universe had a beginning and will have an end and only God is eternal and created the universe and will destroy it as well at a set time. This temporary world is just that temporary.

I meant that you agree, as do I, that not everything requires a creator; we simply disagree on what that something is.

The terms "beginning" and "end" are meaningless when it comes to the universe itself: they are terms which we use to impose a total order (in the mathematical sense) on temporal events, based on causal relations that arise in a temporal framework.

They are properties of the universe itself and meaningless outside of that frame of reference. The expression "before the universe" is as meaningless as "before fhsmrhcismifkdn".

You make the common mistake of believers (of all flavors) in that you try to use words that convey a particular meaning in ways that don't make sense, and then you say "it's not before as you understand it. It's kind of like it, but different."

Tell me Ahmed, what does "before" mean outside the fabric of space-time? What does "after" mean? How did you come up with those definitions and how can we test them?

You have your religion and you have your faith. Good for you. As a matter of fact great for you. If faith and your beliefs help you live your life and be a better person, then awesome!

But please, don't pretend as if your belief is based on logic or is, in any way, shape or form, rational. Faith and reason aren't two complementary tools - like a screwdriver and a hammer. They are opposites.

You claim that your faith provides you with knowledge. How, we ask? Through unknowable means, you answer. Sorry, that's not gonna cut it.
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« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2013, 08:20:16 AM »

Well spoken & solid poster/mod.
Congratulations, Man Of Steel! Smiley
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