What is a good square foot size for a crossfit gym....

[Coach is Back!]

"extensively" in this case = read articles by people who complain about CF. yes. we've all seen them.

what you, and they, are missing is that technique doesn't break down any more than other lifts. olympic lifts aren't some magical exercise that makes technique break down more than others. no one seems to have a problem with widowmaker squat sets, and yet i've never seen a single set of those where technique didn't turn disastrous after rep 12.

the difference is that you see people trying to pull off Grace as RX'd when their max C&J is 185. the high rep Oly workouts are intended to be done with a weight that's light enough that it's a SPEED movement. watch this:

where in that video is his technique collapsing and turning dangerous? oh right, it doesn't.

at high reps, every exercise has potential for technique breakdown. cleans aren't more prone to it than anything else. period.

"Extensively" knowing the bodies three energy systems and how it pertains to the CNS and CNS breakdown. Knowing where to program a specific lift in programming a routine. Knowing what that particular exercise does and why it's in the exercise order it belongs, knowing how to program a rep scheme and WHY it SHOULD be done as the bodies energy systems dictate. Reading case studies specifically CF related, reading about the ER entries that are CF related not with just rhabdomyolysis but other injuries that are either soft-tissue or orthopedic related. Reading opinions from quaified reputable and professional strength coaches. Yes, extensive indeed!

[Coach is Back!]

"extensively" in this case = read articles by people who complain about CF. yes. we've all seen them.

what you, and they, are missing is that technique doesn't break down any more than other lifts. olympic lifts aren't some magical exercise that makes technique break down more than others. no one seems to have a problem with widowmaker squat sets, and yet i've never seen a single set of those where technique didn't turn disastrous after rep 12.

the difference is that you see people trying to pull off Grace as RX'd when their max C&J is 185. the high rep Oly workouts are intended to be done with a weight that's light enough that it's a SPEED movement. watch this:

where in that video is his technique collapsing and turning dangerous? oh right, it doesn't.

at high reps, every exercise has potential for technique breakdown. cleans aren't more prone to it than anything else. period.

That's not an O-lift, it's a barbell complex.

[Tedim]

It's not a gym until it has members. .. if someone has the money to buy yours why not just build it themselves

Most people are lazy.....and won't chew until you put food in their mouth.

Spec store/business development is designed for turn key investors.

[Z Father]

Most people are lazy.....and won't chew until you put food in their mouth.

Spec store/business development is designed for turn key investors.

I know what it is. ...I just don't know of many gyms that were started like that. 

[Tedim]

I know what it is. ...I just don't know of many gyms that were started like that. 

I have done a lot of similar projects....but not a gym, yet

[dyslexic]

The dreaded Rhabdo....

How many pec tears from powerlifting?  Rotator tears from Monday chest day bodybuilders? 

Not the same my friend. Not at all.


I had a very close relative end up in the hospital on an I.V drip for 5 days.


Seriously, to compare the anatomical perspective of a pec tear to the philosophy of Crossfit?

[Coach is Back!]

FFS Joe...like the average person coming into a gym that wants to be a bodybuilder has any clue?  You are saying a powerlifter knows what they are getting into and yet you use an average person for CF.  Nice apples to oranges comparison.  I know what I am getting into with attempting to make the games next year.  I know the risks and have programming in place.  You live with these rose colored glasses thinking that people are dropping like flies with CF.  You don't have the slightest clue how many people have hurt their shoulders, knees, or lower backs working out at a gym 'coventional' style.  Ask yourself how many guys you know that won't squat anymore because they 'fucked their low backs up the last time'.  Or even the same could be said with deadlifting.  How many retards do you see in the gym doing it wrong?  I would say 60 - 70% of the people do them wrong.  

Prove to me why CF isn't for everyone.  Make a valid, educated response that isn't laced with passive aggressive statements.  I bet you can't.  By the way, I could say that bodybuilding and powerlifting isn't for everyone.  I could also say it is.

Lets start with the main lifts...olympic lifts (Clean, snatch, clean and jerk and all of those lifts variations) Very technical lifts wouldn't you agree? You're a Chiro so you would also agree that No one person is built like another, everyone is different. When we test on the FMS (functional movement screen) one of the tests is an overhead head squat which as you should know when in the bottom squat position is a "snatch balance". Most non-athletic people can't squat, meaning there is usually an anterior pelvic tilt that forces the knees to come over the toes forcing the heals to come up instead of falling back and pushing through the heels. We go through four solid weeks with just bar or PVC before they even attempt a loaded lift. in eastern block countries, it's just the bar for about a year before loading.

Now lets take and have them hold a piece of 7ft x 1' OD PVC with a snatch grip, arms extended, head in front of the PVC. Have them do the overhead squat with the snatch grip and squat. What happens? Arm are no longer externally rotated and the load shifts forward, heals come up even worse and they fall off balance. We can usually correct the heel problem by placing a 2x4 or a couple of 10lb plates under the heels, unless they have very limited dorsiflexion, that part can be corrected. As for the arms no longer being externally rotated on the decent, could be a number of things, tight thoracic, tight hip rotators?

The problem with crossfit is, they DO NOT assess anything, nothing for asymmetries, no muscle testing, nothing.

This post was just the start.

Crossfit is for everyone? What about stenosis with degeneration or spondylosis?  who the fuck would be dumb enough to load a spine with a diagnosis like that? I don't even know if CF does anykind of health history before starting. What about "drop-ins'? You take someone in on a drop in that doesn't know his/her ass from a hole in the ground, gets hurt, then what??

[dyslexic]

Our Crossfit "instructors" left our gym.


They didn't like the fact that I insisted that anyone who join the class had to be assessed not only by myself, but also by their doctor or medical health provider.

Too much of a liability to have "trainers" with the Crossfit attitude in a gym.

Like I said, take a guy who has been driving a Mitsubishi Mirage for the last ten years and hand him a Corvette Z06. Tell him that the only way he can have the car is to put the pedal to the metal.

Where do you think he will end up?


Why is it that whenever Louis Simmons gives seminars now all you see are the Crossfit instructors? And Louis has now dumped his longtime philosophy on periodization (can you say "two broken backs?") and now uses the term "Conjugation?"


Coach, I gotta agree with you. Don't even get me started ~


Too many "know-it-alls" out there. And the thing of it is, I may sound like I know it all too, but I am continually studying (and will continue to do so) and I will be the first to admit when I don't know something.

Fitness is NOT objective. It is entirely subjective. Simple case and point: Arnold vs. Mentzer on Philosophy.

The subjectivity alone automatically defaults Crossfitters into a "one size DOES NOT fit all" category, and they do not accept this, which in my estimation is a flagrant display of ignorance and a total disregard for one's safety.

Stepping down off of my podium momentarily...

while you stay safe.


BTW, while you guys are at it, Google "Crossfit and Lawsuits" and see what you get. When you are done do the same with "Crossfit and Rhabdo" and then STFU for a while and think.

[ESFitness]

okkk..

from a business standpoint, your goal when opening a 'gym' is to at some point sell it. Anybody who's been in the industry for any amount of time and has attended weekend training seminars/summits (industry seminars, not certification seminars), such as the ones put on by PerformBetter, will know that shit is drilled into your heads. The goal is to build the business and SELL. Because the buyer isn't simply buying 200k worth of assets (weights & machines), they're buying the name/image/brand, and most importantly, the memberships/contracts. That's why a guy can buy all his own equipment and start a gym for 300k, OR buy an established gym for 600K.

all these scare-stories with cf almost killing people are just that, scare stories. I'm a bodybuilder, always have been. But as a trainer, if I were to rely on bodybuilding to pay the bills, I wouldn't make any money because one-on-one training is a dying business. CF... hell, I have groups of 47-61yr old ladies doing 'functional cross training', they call 'crossfit'. Do I have them doing walking lunges with 135 across their backs, slaming their kneecaps into the ground? No. Do I have them doing doing snatches? No. There's a ton of shit I don't have them do... it's up to the trainer to make modifications for each client, because an injured client won't FUCKING PAY. So if all the trainer want's is to be hardcore and push radical new workouts and an unsustainable pace, he's gonna BE FUCKING BROKE.

I've NEVER had a client have rhabdo... and I routinely train in 120deg weather.

crossfit isn't going anywhere. even if you don't pay to use the crossfit name, the training studio with group training is where you're gonna make money. doing old school personal training you're limited to 1 client per 30mins or 60 mins... that's 16 clients back to back if you do 8hrs straight, or 8 clients back to back for 8hrs straight... after 5, your 'performance' as a trainer suffers, and you're capped at 480/day that's IF... a big fucking IF... you book 8hrs/day straight  of training, which even in busy season never happens. Of, you can have reccurent/contract billing for 70 people at 130/month and pull in 10k/month and run 4-6 "classes" per day. (that's 10k/month when you're overhead is maybe 3k)

[dyslexic]

Good post ES..

I suppose this is more about the trainers and the name "Crossfit" than the actual safety, understanding and knowledge of physiology, kinesiology, anatomy, assessment and actual passion for what you do as a trainer.

Good points made, but you have to admit, there are a lot of guys out there that should not be training, especially in Crossfit. You should be a highly advanced and knowledgeable trainer who always has a careful, observant eye on your clients.


Crossfit is not all bad, but it is still highly subjective for too many reasons. You are right, it's not going anywhere soon (I recant previous statement in previous posts) but it will definitely evolve once the injuries from the jackass trainers who are out for a fast buck start manifesting themselves across the airwaves.

As it stands right now, Crossfit is dynamic and it will evolve much like the very first UFC fight that had a "No holds barred" attitude. Now it is flooded with rules and regulations. Why?

injuries and liabilities.

[Coach is Back!]

okkk..

from a business standpoint, your goal when opening a 'gym' is to at some point sell it. Anybody who's been in the industry for any amount of time and has attended weekend training seminars/summits (industry seminars, not certification seminars), such as the ones put on by PerformBetter, will know that shit is drilled into your heads. The goal is to build the business and SELL. Because the buyer isn't simply buying 200k worth of assets (weights & machines), they're buying the name/image/brand, and most importantly, the memberships/contracts. That's why a guy can buy all his own equipment and start a gym for 300k, OR buy an established gym for 600K.

I'm friends (no, not FB friends) with a lot of the trainers and coaches associated with PB. Boyle is one of my mentors and Dos is a weekend drinking partner sometimes along with Alwyn, Berardi, Winklemen, etc. and tomorrow I'm heading to the PB Summit in Long beach tomorrow and I can tell you that no one in that group would sacrifice their reputation to make a buck from using the CF name. This is one of the things that we disagree with Thomas Plummer on as brilliant as he is.

all these scare-stories with cf almost killing people are just that, scare stories. I'm a bodybuilder, always have been. But as a trainer, if I were to rely on bodybuilding to pay the bills, I wouldn't make any money because one-on-one training is a dying business. CF... hell, I have groups of 47-61yr old ladies doing 'functional cross training', they call 'crossfit'. Do I have them doing walking lunges with 135 across their backs, slaming their kneecaps into the ground? No. Do I have them doing doing snatches? No. There's a ton of shit I don't have them do... it's up to the trainer to make modifications for each client, because an injured client won't FUCKING PAY. So if all the trainer want's is to be hardcore and push radical new workouts and an unsustainable pace, he's gonna BE FUCKING BROKE.

I've NEVER had a client have rhabdo... and I routinely train in 120deg weather.

crossfit isn't going anywhere. even if you don't pay to use the crossfit name, the training studio with group training is where you're gonna make money. doing old school personal training you're limited to 1 client per 30mins or 60 mins... that's 16 clients back to back if you do 8hrs straight, or 8 clients back to back for 8hrs straight... after 5, your 'performance' as a trainer suffers, and you're capped at 480/day that's IF... a big fucking IF... you book 8hrs/day straight  of training, which even in busy season never happens. Of, you can have reccurent/contract billing for 70 people at 130/month and pull in 10k/month and run 4-6 "classes" per day. (that's 10k/month when you're overhead is maybe 3k)

[Krankenstein]

Because crossfit incorporates a lot of ballistic movements. And the mentality is to "kill it" which inexperienced trainers and newbies get caught up in....I call it enthusiasm outstrpping your ability.

How is this different than strong man?  Also, have you really taken a look at how some people bench?  Bouncing the bar off their chests?  Shortening up range of motion on squats and leg presses to the point where  if they DID load in a full range they end up hurting themselves?  You bring up the inexperienced trainers when Magoo just pointed out how most (if not all) commercial gyms have WAY MORE of these retards than a CF gym.  The mentality of 'killing it' is NOT prevalent in all CF gyms.  Again, how many times have you seen some trainer getting a super chubby because they destroyed a client. For 12yrs I listened to trainers laugh when they said their clients threw up, couldn't walk the next day, couldn't lift their arms...etc.  Oh, and for your info Rhabo isn't something that is strictly for CF people.  You would be surprised at how many people get it at commercial gyms.

[Coach is Back!]

How is this different than strong man?  Also, have you really taken a look at how some people bench?  Bouncing the bar off their chests?  Shortening up range of motion on squats and leg presses to the point where  if they DID load in a full range they end up hurting themselves?  You bring up the inexperienced trainers when Magoo just pointed out how most (if not all) commercial gyms have WAY MORE of these retards than a CF gym.  The mentality of 'killing it' is NOT prevalent in all CF gyms.  Again, how many times have you seen some trainer getting a super chubby because they destroyed a client. For 12yrs I listened to trainers laugh when they said their clients threw up, couldn't walk the next day, couldn't lift their arms...etc.  Oh, and for your info Rhabo isn't something that is strictly for CF people.  You would be surprised at how many people get it at commercial gyms.

Because in strongman there is usually progression from other strength sports, like powerlifting. Like anything there is a learning curve but even though there is that learning curve, they have years of training behind them. Try walking into a strongman session with no training experience and see how that works out.

As for the CF games.....90% of those competitors are already athletes experienced in those particular lifts.   

[ESFitness]

I gotta miss the PF long beach summit this year 

[Krankenstein]

Lets start with the main lifts...olympic lifts (Clean, snatch, clean and jerk and all of those lifts variations) Very technical lifts wouldn't you agree? It would be stupid not to.  I would also contend that the squat and deadlift are very technical, maybe not like an olympic lift...but still technical.  Would you not agree?

You're a Chiro so you would also agree that No one person is built like another, everyone is different. Again, stupid not to agree

When we test on the FMS (functional movement screen) one of the tests is an overhead head squat which as you should know when in the bottom squat position is a "snatch balance". Most non-athletic people can't squat, meaning there is usually an anterior pelvic tilt that forces the knees to come over the toes forcing the heals to come up instead of falling back and pushing through the heels. So far you have made a point that all clients should go through Functional Testing.  Personally I like doing FCE's on people when they come into my clinic.  Do you think trainers at Golds, LA Fitness, Lifetime Fitness, etc are performing functional testing on all clients?

We go through four solid weeks with just bar or PVC before they even attempt a loaded lift. in eastern block countries, it's just the bar for about a year before loading. I would contend that the BETTER CF gyms encourage people to go through olympic classes (most of which are about 6 - 8 weeks with bar/PVC

Now lets take and have them hold a piece of 7ft x 1' OD PVC with a snatch grip, arms extended, head in front of the PVC. Have them do the overhead squat with the snatch grip and squat. What happens? Arm are no longer externally rotated and the load shifts forward, heals come up even worse and they fall off balance. We can usually correct the heel problem by placing a 2x4 or a couple of 10lb plates under the heels, unless they have very limited dorsiflexion, that part can be corrected. As for the arms no longer being externally rotated on the decent, could be a number of things, tight thoracic, tight hip rotators? Here is where I vehemently disagree with your protocol of placing a plate under the heel.  I contend that you are only encouraging a further tightening/shortening of the achilles tendon (at minimum).  There are a number of things that will also come into play besides soft tissue.  Do they have any spondylosis of the thoracic spine?  Perhaps a base posterior sacrum? Musculo-skeletal is the proper assessment...not just muscular.

The problem with crossfit is, they DO NOT assess anything, nothing for asymmetries, no muscle testing, nothing. Again, do you believe that all trainers are doing this?  

This post was just the start.

Crossfit is for everyone? What about stenosis with degeneration or spondylosis?  who the fuck would be dumb enough to load a spine with a diagnosis like that? Oh, and only CF people are doing this?  Please Joe.  This was weak.  Downright pathetic.  I would point out that stenosis is rarely caused by anything else other than degeneration (be it disc and/or vertebral).  If someone has a high grade neuroforamenal encroachment, do you think that doing axial loading of any kind is good?  How about spondylolisthesis (beyond grade 2)?  Care to tell me that doing some hack squats or front squats is going to be ok? You merely pointed out a condition or two that would be contraindicated for lifting.  I would say that you look at CF as this 'no modification do it full or don't do it at all' kind of thing.  They scale thing like any other lifting style.  If someone was missing a leg could they train with CF...sure.  Oh, wait..here you will come and tell them they can't.  Horseshit.  I wish I could copy the video my friend posted from his gym in Phoenix.  They had Military vets that had certain limbs missing/damaged and they were training and doing things they could.

I don't even know if CF does any kind of health history before starting. What about "drop-ins'? You take someone in on a drop in that doesn't know his/her ass from a hole in the ground, gets hurt, then what??  Yes, because every time I have visited a gym I have had to fill out a health history.  You sign a waiver (like any gym) that you are cleared to work out.  Is that the CF gym's fault if someone signs off that they are medically ok to train when they should not be?  I have seen plenty more of said people who didn't know their ass from a hole in the ground at my local commercial gym than I have seen in a CF gym.  Funny thing is that the people in a CF gym sit there and encourage one another and actually build a nice 'community'.  When was the last time you say that at some regular gym?  Everyone is out for themselves there

You didn't really do a very good job with your explanation...you can try again if you so choose.

Also...please tell me how you came up with the "90% of those athletes" figure.  Seriously...of the top ones, there are only a handful with prior olympic lifting experience.  Also, those people at the games have done just what you said should be done.  They get proper coaching, proper programming, etc, etc.

[ESFitness]

Cliff Notes:

Working out can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

There are more poor, inexperienced trainers than there are good, knowledgeable trainers.

CF has injuries.

BB has injuries.

PL has injuries.

OL has injuries.

Running has injuries.

Yoga has injuries.

You sign a waiver when you sign up for training.

Trainers practicing outside their scope are liable.

CF makes a ton of money.

CF re-introduced fitness/gym culture to the 'mainstream' the way bbing did in the 70's.

[Coach is Back!]

The problem is that CF has the highest rate of injury out any fitness program around.

[Krankenstein]

The problem is that CF has the highest rate of injury out any fitness program around.

Got a chart for that?  Were you aware that cheerleading is ranked #1 in 'sports' for head related injuries?

[Coach is Back!]

Got a chart for that?  Were you aware that cheerleading is ranked #1 in 'sports' for head related injuries?

I didn't say sports, I said fitness programs.

[The Showstoppa]

Got a chart for that?  Were you aware that cheerleading is ranked #1 in 'sports' for head related injuries?

Perhaps those guys and gals should allow more room when they climb under the coaches desk to avoid those "head" injuries. 

[MisterMagoo]

That's not an O-lift, it's a barbell complex.

derp, that's how they're done for high reps and speed.

klokov, as in one of the best oly lifters on the planet, has expressed interest in competing in crossfit within the next year or so. maybe you should be the one to explain to him why it's bad.

[Krankenstein]

I didn't say sports, I said fitness programs.

Well, you failed to address any points I made above.  So, why should I be direct?

Lets make a list of "fitness programs"

1) Crossfit
2) Step Aerobics
3) Bodybuilding
4) Pilates
5) Zumba
6) Spin Class

Etc
Etc

Hmmm....you won't provide the source of your information, so I threw that list together.  Lets see..comparing CF to other things..yeah, no question the chance of getting injured is higher.  Thats like comparing playing football to playing Madden NFL 2014   

Magoo...don't worry, I am sure Joe would have a stern word or two for Klokov if he does. 

[MisterMagoo]

it drives me fucking bananas that CF can't be brought up without the usual toolboxes wailing about it.

the funny thing is i don't really even do it now, i just respect the SHIT out of it. currently i'm on an oly strength focus, but i still love following CF.

maybe it's that i admire people who exercise for doing things over CHECK OUT THE SEPARATION IN HIS QUADS, BRAH.

[The Showstoppa]

I'm a striated glutes man myself.

[Krankenstein]

it drives me fucking bananas that CF can't be brought up without the usual toolboxes wailing about it.

the funny thing is i don't really even do it now, i just respect the SHIT out of it. currently i'm on an oly strength focus, but i still love following CF.

maybe it's that i admire people who exercise for doing things over CHECK OUT THE SEPARATION IN HIS QUADS, BRAH.

Hey dude, how can i get more peak and separation in my biceps?

Funny thing...you don't see any CFer doning a white towel.