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Author Topic: Do steroids permanently alter muscle tissue?  (Read 1543 times)
Dicki_Nurmom
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« on: August 14, 2013, 03:42:12 AM »

An article in Breaking Muscle (link below) led me to read the study (far below) and brought up a good question (at least in my mind)... I did a search but couldn't find anything relevant on this board (if you have links please share)...

I have been lifting naturally for 20 years and I am 35 years old... I am now considering a steroid cycle after reading about them for years. But I would never cycle continuously for the rest of my life. I am however, considering cycling 4-5 times in a 2 year period with the goal of permanently altering my muscle tissue (if this is in fact possible as the article and study below suggest)...

Any thoughts?


http://breakingmuscle.com/health-medicine/once-you-ve-used-steroids-is-it-possible-to-ever-compete-clean-again

________________________ ________________________ ______________________

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16059740

Skeletal muscle morphology in power-lifters with and without anabolic steroids.
Eriksson A, Kadi F, Malm C, Thornell LE.

Source
Department of Integrative Medical Biology, Section for Anatomy, Umeε University, 901 87 Umeε, Sweden.

Abstract
The morphological appearance of the vastus lateralis (VL) muscle from high-level power-lifters on long-term anabolic steroid supplementation (PAS) and power-lifters never taking anabolic steroids (P) was compared. The effects of long- and short-term supplementation were compared. Enzyme-immunohistochemical investigations were performed to assess muscle fiber type composition, fiber area, number of myonuclei per fiber, internal myonuclei, myonuclear domains and proportion of satellite cells. The PAS group had larger type I, IIA, IIAB and IIC fiber areas (p<0.05). The number of myonuclei/fiber and the proportion of central nuclei were significantly higher in the PAS group (p<0.05). Similar results were seen in the trapezius muscle (T) but additionally, in T the proportion of fibers expressing developmental myosin isoforms was higher in the PAS group compared to the P group. Further, in VL, the PAS group had significantly larger nuclear domains in fibers containing > or = 5 myonuclei. The results of AS on VL morphology in this study were similar to previously reported short-term effects of AS on VL. The initial effects from AS appear to be maintained for several years.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2013, 09:37:42 AM »

So in normal English speak what? It's saying the fibers were larger in the steroid group. Who would have thought!
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Dicki_Nurmom
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 11:57:58 AM »

So in normal English speak what? It's saying the fibers were larger in the steroid group. Who would have thought!

i think the effect is on the number of nuclei per muscle causing the potential for permanent increased strength, size and recovery...

that's the theory anyway
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nasht5
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2013, 01:11:06 PM »

when you go off the juice you lose the mucle and strength gains.
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2013, 01:13:12 PM »

when you go off the juice you lose the mucle and strength gains.

have you experienced this?

over what time frame?

i have several friends who did 2-10 cycles in their youth but who stopped as they got older but continued to train... while they are no longer as big they seem to recover faster than i do...
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Dicki_Nurmom
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2013, 01:55:16 AM »

depends what esters were used.

the strenght goes first, then the volume, then the leannes, and fuck no you can forget there being a long term benefit for recovery.
quite the opposite.

but they do alter something, something happens, some benfical things do happen.

hard to put in words.


fair enough... what did you notice? a rounding of certain muscles (chest, traps, delts) that seemed to change their shape slightly from before?
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nasht5
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2013, 01:56:48 AM »

have you experienced this?

over what time frame?

i have several friends who did 2-10 cycles in their youth but who stopped as they got older but continued to train... while they are no longer as big they seem to recover faster than i do...

if your doing test cyp or enth:
you'll notice strength gains dropping rapidly 8-10wks after your last injection, like falling off a cliff.
you'll lose the muscle gains over the next couple months... no matter how hard you train to keep them.

just a note: if your doing cycles of 10wks on and a bunch of wks off YOUR WASTING YOUR MONEY. by the time you start seeing any real gains you stop.
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Dicki_Nurmom
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2013, 02:04:42 AM »

if your doing test cyp or enth:
you'll notice strength gains dropping rapidly 8-10wks after your last injection, like falling off a cliff.
you'll lose the muscle gains over the next couple months... no matter how hard you train to keep them.

just a note: if your doing cycles of 10wks on and a bunch of wks off YOUR WASTING YOUR MONEY. by the time you start seeing any real gains you stop.

again... are you speaking from actual experience or are you just a 12 year old kid living in him mom's basement regurgitating old muscle mayhem responses...?

if i decide to cycle it will be full bore, GH, insulin, peptides, steroids (a variety in an extended cycle ending with a hardening phase as well as the prescribed estrogen blockers)...

but if i am going to bother with doing this to myself i'd like to know if there will be permanent physical or physiological changes (or at least get an understanding of what other people have experienced)
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nasht5
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2013, 02:26:23 AM »

I don't think a 12yr old kid has ever squatted over 900lbs. belt & knee wraps - no squat suit. Cool
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2013, 02:36:30 AM »

I don't think a 12yr old kid has ever squatted over 900lbs. belt & knee wraps - no squat suit. Cool

 Roll Eyes

can we stick to the topic at hand or is that impossible?
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calisurfer220
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2013, 08:35:05 AM »

just a note: if your doing cycles of 10wks on and a bunch of wks off YOUR WASTING YOUR MONEY. by the time you start seeing any real gains you stop.

So you would recommend a blast-cruise type protocol?  Or just longer cycles with excellent PCT?

What about for guys in their early 30's?  It sounds like you are saying - unless you plan on using test for the rest of your life, don't bother even touching it.  I'm sorry if that is not what you intended, it is just how I read your posts
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Dicki_Nurmom
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 09:32:52 AM »

yes, it was asked do steroids help to develop some parts and keep them somewhat which naturaly didnt happen, well, yeah, they do, delts, upper chest are somewhat typical, and maybe legs, dont know why ,though


i think the theory is that certain muscles have a greater number of androgen receptors and so they are more susceptible to steroid induced changes...
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BodyMachine
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 10:42:38 AM »

Look at bodybuilder mustafa mohammad if Im not mistaken he shrank down to a typical joe after he retired.
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 11:35:22 AM »

I believe you can have permanent results , only if let's say you are only 75% of your max muscle mass you can achieve naturally.... if you cycle for a good while and blow past the barrier what you should be able to keep is what you would have gained naturally but will be very hard to stay at that spot , one thing I notice is the muscle memory when you blow up then come ofd and naturally stay at your shrunken down size when you gear up again you reach that size sooner and are able to grow a lil bit more
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Dicki_Nurmom
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 04:50:04 PM »

Look at bodybuilder mustafa mohammad if Im not mistaken he shrank down to a typical joe after he retired.


you're right he does look pretty pathetic
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Dicki_Nurmom
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2013, 01:35:29 AM »

i've been reading a lot about the 2 year pro cycle... it's wild what the right drug combo can do for a dedicated person...

i'm wondering if the changes are caused more by the hardening (DHT) steroids: Anadrol/Masteron/Winstrol/Primobolan than by other AAS or GH/peptides... i know that insulin doesn't cause any permanent changes... the only reason i would add it to a cycle is the legal availability and low cost combined with the immediate anabolic impact
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« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2013, 10:29:14 PM »


i think the theory is that certain muscles have a greater number of androgen receptors and so they are more susceptible to steroid induced changes...

Bros-- True it is about muscle receptors, but not the way you think:
1--- There are many different receptor (proteins) on the
sarcolemma (outer muscle membrane) that influence muscle in a number of ways. For instance, receptors often can predict
muscle strength (eg. the acetylcholine receptor interacts with the chemical neurotransmitter acetylcholine. When a patient has myasthenia there is an autoimmune attack against AChRs and
thus too few AChRs so the patient becomes weak and fatigues
rapidly. We see this to some extent normally in ourselves-- why can't you do more than twenty reps when benching 2 plates on one side???)
2- Use of muscle influences receptor number as do other hormones, transmitters. For instance, thyroid can influence the number of beta-adrenergic receptors as well as numbers of AChRs. Ever wonder why someone on roids who does not exercise look like shit, yet someone who lifts has a better physique?
3- Androgens interact with their very own receptors in muscle, yet they can upregulate other receptors simultaneously. Yep they influence AChRs and this can make you stronger-- exercise increases this interaction and BINGO muscle hypertrophy--- but for only specific fibers-- type 1// type 2.
4- The internal nuclei in a muscle fiber have nothing to do with it-- in fact the presence of internal nuclei in a muscle biopsy is "myopathic" and is indicative of muscle disease. Use of corticosteroids-- predisone-- can cause this and because of it's effect on receptors lead to a Type 2 fiber atrophy and muscle weakness if taken for long periods.

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Eric
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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 04:53:46 PM »

when you go off the juice you lose the mucle and strength gains.
Yep you always go back. And coming off gear feels like shit rather stay natural or don't bother comin f off. Personal experience. I'll never come off again. Ever. No thanks on feeling like shit and lookin like shit after opening pandoras box.
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