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Author Topic: The right gets confused by its own lie  (Read 1075 times)
Straw Man
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« on: August 20, 2013, 10:51:44 AM »

The right gets confused by its own lie
Right-wing groups claim Congress is exempted from Obamacare. But five months ago, they had a very different story
BY ALEX SEITZ-WALD
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/20/the_right_gets_confused_by_its_own_lie/?source=newsletterprint

A good lie never dies, and so it is that we get Texas Sen. Ted Cruz telling Mary Matalin, sitting in for Laura Ingraham, Monday: “I think it is disgraceful that President Obama, in just a lawless move, just exempted Congress [from Obamacare].”

“If Congress gets a pass on Obamacare, you should, too,” the conservative group Freedomworks, which has been leading the push to defund the health law, demands. Then there’s John Cornyn, the number two Senate Republican, along with the Wall Street Journal editorial board and  Fox News, not to mention former senator and current Heritage Foundation president Jim DeMint, and Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol, and all the rest. A Washington Times columnist even called it “treason.”

Sadly, but not surprisingly, they’re all lying to you. Congress did not, and never has, “exempted” itself from Obamacare. Here’s the New Republic’s Jonathan Cohn, one of the smartest writers on health care policy anywhere:

As is often the case with these arguments, this one contains an element of truth. Obamacare really does treat congressional employees differently from other people. But that’s because of an amendment written by Senator Chuck Grassley, the Iowa Republican. The amendment—almost certainly a political stunt designed to embarrass the Democrats—created an ambiguity in the law that the Obama administration had to clarify. Last week the administration issued a ruling and, sure enough, it is getting political grief over it. But there’s no reason it should.

Grassley offered an amendment that would kick members of Congress and their staffers off the federal employee health plan and make them enroll in the new health insurance exchanges, which are mostly for individuals who don’t get employer coverage. If not for his amendment, their insurance scheme wouldn’t have changed at all. Republicans expected Democrats would vote it down, thus giving them an opening to attack the law, but Democrats called the bluff and passed the amendment.

But what wasn’t resolved, until last week, was whether members of Congress and their employees would still get the money the government had been contributing to their health insurance premiums as their employer. Last week, the administration ruled: They would get to keep the employer contribution. That’s it.

So, in fact, members of Congress are still going to be required to use the Obamacare-created health insurance exchanges. That’s why Politifact called the exemption myth a “Pants on Fire” and FactCheck.org wrote, “No. Congress members and staffers will be required to buy insurance through the exchanges on Jan. 1.” For more, check out Ezra Klein, Steve Benen, and Jon Chait, who calls it a “toxic combination of ignorance and bad faith that has characterized the right’s approach to Obamacare.”

Don’t believe the liberal or even mainstream “liberal” media? Then take it from FreedomWorks. That’s right, the very same conservative advocacy group that’s now telling conservatives to “ready your pitchforks” over the alleged congressional exemption once said the polar exact diametrical opposite.

“No, Congress Is Not Exempt From Obamacare,” reads the headline from an April 28 blog post on the group’s website from Loren Heal, who writes of the controversy over the Grassley Amendment:

Congress is not only covered by Obamacare, but members and staff can be offered only plans that are either created by Obamacare or are offered through an exchange. That isn’t how the law works for most people, but it’s not exempting anyone — it’s more restrictive.

In fact, FreedomWorks was so sure then that Congress wasn’t getting an exemption that they demanded “Politico print a retraction” after writing “a carefully crafted story” that claimed members of Congress were in secret talks to exempt themselves from Obamacare. “It isn’t true,” Heal continued. He was right then when he debunked it. That’s how we know they’re lying, and not just ignorant.
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whork
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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2013, 11:34:29 AM »

Its not a lie to the republican voters because dont remember what happened in april.

Just like they will have forgot this month events in a couple of days.

The economy crashed on Obama's watch remember?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2013, 11:36:02 AM »

Oh, the outrage LOL !!

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=486869.0

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=476290.0

I guess all the right wingers will be relieved to know that Congress is not really exempt from Obamacare afterall and in fact it was only their own stupidity (actually Chuck Grassley's stupidity) that even put them in the position of having even more restrictive requirements than the general public

Well, even though you were lied to by your own party and your party controlled media you can take solace in the fact that at least it was not true and Congress is not and never has been exempt from Obamacare



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SOMEPARTS
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2013, 11:40:53 AM »

Imagine if somebody had either written a good bill, those who passed it had read it in the first place or even tried to fix it at some point before partial implementation.

So much wasted energy covering up the fact that this bill was undeveloped in a working sense and overdeveloped in a bureaucratic sense - and covering everyone's ass that had anything to do with it upfront.
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Straw Man
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2013, 11:44:37 AM »

Imagine if somebody had either written a good bill, those who passed it had read it in the first place or even tried to fix it at some point before partial implementation.

So much wasted energy covering up the fact that this bill was undeveloped in a working sense and overdeveloped in a bureaucratic sense - and covering everyone's ass that had anything to do with it upfront.


yeah, imagine if Repubs had just participated in trying to help the country to craft and implement healthcare reform instead of trying to block it and put poison pills in the legislation while lying to the public the entire time

Shit, Ted Cruz was lying about it on Nation TV as recently as last weekend

Either he was lying or too stupid to know the truth.  Which one is worse

Then again, this is the guy who apparently was too stupid to know that he had dual citizenship with Canada.

I thought this was supposed to be one of the smart guys in the stupid party ?
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Soul Crusher
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2013, 11:53:43 AM »

They did try - and O-THUG ignored them due to his radicalism and incompetence



yeah, imagine if Repubs had just participated in trying to help the country to craft and implement healthcare reform instead of trying to block it and put poison pills in the legislation while lying to the public the entire time

Shit, Ted Cruz was lying about it on Nation TV as recently as last weekend

Either he was lying or too stupid to know the truth.  Which one is worse

Then again, this is the guy who apparently was too stupid to know that he had dual citizenship with Canada.

I thought this was supposed to be one of the smart guys in the stupid party ?
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SOMEPARTS
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2013, 12:07:42 PM »

This is not the sort of bill that should be created mostly by one party and forced through. That is the problem.

It should have taken much longer to hash it out and with much more debate and foresight.
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Straw Man
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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2013, 12:14:51 PM »

This is not the sort of bill that should be created mostly by one party and forced through. That is the problem.

It should have taken much longer to hash it out and with much more debate and foresight.

Repubs had an abundance of opportunity to participate but instead they chose to obstruct, lie and then try to water down the bill and insert poison pills such as Grassley's amendment which did nothing except make the options MORE RESTRICTIVE for congress

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Straw Man
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2013, 12:16:47 PM »

They did try - and O-THUG ignored them due to his radicalism and incompetence


I'll entertain your delusions for a few minutes

please share some examples of how Republican tried to participate in good faith in the process rather than trying to water it down, or kill it all together

please check first to make sure the examples you post (presuming they actually exist) are not actually lies that you picked up from Repubs or Repubs propaganda sources
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Soul Crusher
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 12:25:51 PM »

I'll entertain your delusions for a few minutes

please share some examples of how Republican tried to participate in good faith in the process rather than trying to water it down, or kill it all together

please check first to make sure the examples you post (presuming they actually exist) are not actually lies that you picked up from Repubs or Repubs propaganda sources

Snow tried to work w Obama remember?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 12:41:54 PM »

Snow tried to work w Obama remember?

be more specific

read this first ( I know you like HP) and then refer back to my statement about obstructing and watering down legislation

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/27/olympia-snowe-obama-failing-grade_n_1382838.html
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whork
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 02:24:34 PM »

This is not the sort of bill that should be created mostly by one party and forced through. That is the problem.

It should have taken much longer to hash it out and with much more debate and foresight.

Good luck getting the lobbyist/republicans on board on anything actually benefitting the US taxpayer.
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Skip8282
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 06:23:44 PM »

Its not a lie to the republican voters because dont remember what happened in april.

Just like they will have forgot this month events in a couple of days.

The economy crashed on Obama's watch remember?



It's not a lie, because it's not a lie.

Never, ever believe anything dumbfuck posts.

What that biased article is leaving out is that in order for the federal government to give the employer contribution, the OPM first had to rule (technically, it's just an offer for a rule right now), that the Federal government was exempt from the portion of the ACA that holds that an employer can't offer their cafeteria plan as a benefit through the exchange.

Think for yourself dude.  And never believe another post by dumbfuck.

Class dismissed.
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Straw Man
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 08:02:23 PM »



It's not a lie, because it's not a lie.

Never, ever believe anything dumbfuck posts.

What that biased article is leaving out is that in order for the federal government to give the employer contribution, the OPM first had to rule (technically, it's just an offer for a rule right now), that the Federal government was exempt from the portion of the ACA that holds that an employer can't offer their cafeteria plan as a benefit through the exchange.

Think for yourself dude.  And never believe another post by dumbfuck.

Class dismissed.

I love how you make claims but never source them

Congress (like any other employer) would never have to go onto the ACA as long as they continued to provide healthcare coverage to their employees.  

The ONLY reason the OPM had to get involved and had to make a ruling was because because of an amendment written by Senator Chuck Grassley created an ambiguity in the law that the Obama administration had to clarify.

If the Repubs had not done that then the OPM would have never gotten involved.

Again, you're either genuinely stupid or just lying

If you'd like to provide some proof to your claim which contradicts anything I've written then do it or STFU

you can use any of the links that I've already posted on this thread to research whether what I've written is correct or not

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Soul Crusher
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2013, 08:04:50 PM »

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57604782/study-insurance-costs-to-soar-under-obamacare


Here is a lie you stupid fuck - one told by that shifty ghetto lazy pos you voted for 2x over
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Straw Man
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2013, 08:12:48 PM »

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505144_162-57604782/study-insurance-costs-to-soar-under-obamacare


Here is a lie you stupid fuck - one told by that shifty ghetto lazy pos you voted for 2x over

that is not the topic of this thread

start your own thread if you want to post this shit

then we can compare a "study" to what is actually happening in reality
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Skip8282
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« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 05:25:13 PM »

I love how you make claims but never source them

Congress (like any other employer) would never have to go onto the ACA as long as they continued to provide healthcare coverage to their employees.   

The ONLY reason the OPM had to get involved and had to make a ruling was because because of an amendment written by Senator Chuck Grassley created an ambiguity in the law that the Obama administration had to clarify.

If the Repubs had not done that then the OPM would have never gotten involved.

Again, you're either genuinely stupid or just lying

If you'd like to provide some proof to your claim which contradicts anything I've written then do it or STFU

you can use any of the links that I've already posted on this thread to research whether what I've written is correct or not





You are hands down the dumbest fucking poster on this board.

What proof have you offered moron?  You posted an article from a clown who doesn't even understand what happened.

In order for any of that shit to go down, OPM had find that Congress was exempt from a portion of the law.  This does not mean they are exempt from the ENTIRE Obamacare law.

I said in my post above that OPM had an offer for rule which sums things up pretty nicely.  Your dumb ass can find that at www.opm.gov   Yeah, Dumbfuck...a site where you might actually learn what the fuck is happening.

Does your dumbass need an article? 


Politico reports that the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) will soon issue a ruling allowing continuing subsidies to Congressional health plans.  Under the law itself, such a rule would be flatly illegal.  First, the relevant law being clarified is not administered by OPM, but by the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), and the only available health plans for Congress are those regulated by HHS.  Second, proposed amendments to Obamacare to create a specific allowance for a Congressional health care subsidy were flatly rejected and, therefore, did not become part of the law as enacted.

Third, and most importantly, FEHBP is not simply a cash-grant for health care reimbursement.  The authorizing statute, 5 U.S.C. § 8906, allows OPM to make payments only for “qualified plans…under this chapter,” as negotiated by OPM.  OPM did not provide Congress with vouchers usable for any health care plan, but instead provided a specific list of OPM-approved and OPM-negotiated plans.  The plans themselves were thus indistinguishable from the subsidy.  Obamacare, however, explicitly repealed such a scheme by providing that “notwithstanding any other provision of law,” the only available plans are those envisioned by Obamacare which, as set forth above, are administered by HHS.  Ultimately, if OPM continues to operate as before, it arguably will be violating Section 1312 of Obamacare by maintaining a competitor health care program, and if it starts giving out cash subsidies or vouchers that are usable for an Obamacare exchange, it arguably will be violating its own enabling statute.



http://www.fedsocblog.com/blog/can_the_president_legally_exempt_congress_from_obamacare/



Now I know that's well over your head Dumbfuck, but at least try.




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Straw Man
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« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 05:34:22 PM »



You are hands down the dumbest fucking poster on this board.

What proof have you offered moron?  You posted an article from a clown who doesn't even understand what happened.

In order for any of that shit to go down, OPM had find that Congress was exempt from a portion of the law.  This does not mean they are exempt from the ENTIRE Obamacare law.

I said in my post above that OPM had an offer for rule which sums things up pretty nicely.  Your dumb ass can find that at www.opm.gov   Yeah, Dumbfuck...a site where you might actually learn what the fuck is happening.

Does your dumbass need an article? 


Politico reports that the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) will soon issue a ruling allowing continuing subsidies to Congressional health plans.  Under the law itself, such a rule would be flatly illegal.  First, the relevant law being clarified is not administered by OPM, but by the Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS), and the only available health plans for Congress are those regulated by HHS.  Second, proposed amendments to Obamacare to create a specific allowance for a Congressional health care subsidy were flatly rejected and, therefore, did not become part of the law as enacted.

Third, and most importantly, FEHBP is not simply a cash-grant for health care reimbursement.  The authorizing statute, 5 U.S.C. § 8906, allows OPM to make payments only for “qualified plans…under this chapter,” as negotiated by OPM.  OPM did not provide Congress with vouchers usable for any health care plan, but instead provided a specific list of OPM-approved and OPM-negotiated plans.  The plans themselves were thus indistinguishable from the subsidy.  Obamacare, however, explicitly repealed such a scheme by providing that “notwithstanding any other provision of law,” the only available plans are those envisioned by Obamacare which, as set forth above, are administered by HHS.  Ultimately, if OPM continues to operate as before, it arguably will be violating Section 1312 of Obamacare by maintaining a competitor health care program, and if it starts giving out cash subsidies or vouchers that are usable for an Obamacare exchange, it arguably will be violating its own enabling statute.



http://www.fedsocblog.com/blog/can_the_president_legally_exempt_congress_from_obamacare/



Now I know that's well over your head Dumbfuck, but at least try.






simple question for you

Why did OPM have to make this ruling ?

Who included provision in the ACA requiring congressional staffers to have to drop their employer provided health insurance and go on the exchanges?
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Straw Man
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« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 06:24:09 PM »

Here's how Republicans required their staff to LOSE their employer provided health care and BE REQUIRED to enroll in the exchanges

That led to OPM having to decide whether they could keep their employer contributions to their health care

Again - Congress was never EXEMPT from ACA - instead they were REQUIRED by REPUBLICANS to take it and the way they drafted the language (still Republican language) is what created the problem

Quote
Mark Harkins at the Georgetown University Government Affairs Institute has more details on how the language written into the ACA ended up dropping members of Congress and their staffs from qualifying for employer contributions. He writes that there were actually dueling provisions to force members of Congress and their staffers onto the exchanges. There was the measure from Grassley in the Finance Committee — which was more detailed and maintained employer contribution — and an amendment from Republican Tom Coburn of Oklahoma in the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, which also marked up a health care bill.  Coburn’s language, as written, prevented members and staff from receiving contributions. It appears, based on text, Reid chose Coburn’s language over Grassley’s. You can watch fun video of Coburn and the 2009 HELP markup of the amendment here

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G3TyhhvDuM" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G3TyhhvDuM</a>
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Skip8282
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 06:35:35 PM »



Again - Congress was never EXEMPT from ACA - instead they were REQUIRED by REPUBLICANS to take it and the way they drafted the language (still Republican language) is what created the problem









In order for any of that shit to go down, OPM had find that Congress was exempt from a portion of the law.  This does not mean they are exempt from the ENTIRE Obamacare law.





I don't know what else to tell you Dumbfuck.  You've got to get the basic understanding down FIRST, then move on.
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Straw Man
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« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2013, 06:37:23 PM »






I don't know what else to tell you Dumbfuck.  You've got to get the basic understanding down FIRST, then move on.

so  you're agreeing they were never ever exempt from ACA and that claim is just a complete lie

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AbrahamG
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« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2013, 08:43:15 PM »

so  you're agreeing they were never ever exempt from ACA and that claim is just a complete lie



He's way too stupid for words.
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Necrosis
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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2013, 06:24:14 AM »






I don't know what else to tell you Dumbfuck.  You've got to get the basic understanding down FIRST, then move on.

You are being smashed in this thread, you are arguing semantics and skirting the issue like a boss.
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whork
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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2013, 06:43:53 AM »

so  you're agreeing they were never ever exempt from ACA and that claim is just a complete lie



Bumb for Skip. Lets hear an answer or he is a liar from now on.
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Skip8282
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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2013, 04:15:03 PM »

You are being smashed in this thread, you are arguing semantics and skirting the issue like a boss.



Semantics?


Haha...now the Canadian tard enters the mash.

You're the same couple of clowns that tried to claim the IRS didn't do what the IRS admitted to doing, lol.

You fuck ups couldn't smash an egg yolk - combined!

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