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syntaxmachine
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« on: August 29, 2013, 05:58:12 PM »

Peter: "Lord, where are you going?"
John 13:36

Thomas: "Lord, we do not know where you are going"
John 14:5

Jesus: "Now I am going to the one who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'"
John 16:5

This was all at the same dinner table, apparently.
 
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Man of Steel
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Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


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« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2013, 06:37:42 AM »

Peter: "Lord, where are you going?"
John 13:36

Context of verse: Jesus is describing Peterís eventual betrayal/denial of him.

Thomas: "Lord, we do not know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"  
John 14:5

(I went ahead and completed the verse as it references the context of the passage...."the way")

Jesus: but I will do what the Father requires of me, so that the world will know that I love the Father. Come, letís be going.  
John 14:31

(I went ahead and added this verse to indicate the change in setting)

Context of verse: Jesus is describing how he is the only way to the Father.

The time and location has changed nowÖ..

Jesus: "Now I am going to the one who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'"
John 16:5

Jesus: ďInstead, you grieve because of what Iíve told you.Ē  
John 16:6

(I went ahead and added this verse for the sake of context)

Context of verse: Jesus is describing the arrival of the Holy Spirit and addressing how the disciples are now feeling sadness over Christ's leaving more than questioning where he is going.  He's explained to them where his is going in previous chapters.

This was all at the same dinner table, apparently.  

It was discussed at different times within different settings as I've noted.  

I can post the full chapters (including chapter 15) for the sake of that all important context if need be.  Context is often more important than syntax.....maybe I should be contextmachine.  Cheesy 

Have a good one!
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syntaxmachine
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« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2013, 10:57:41 AM »

Context of verse: Jesus is describing Peterís eventual betrayal/denial of him.

Context of verse: Jesus is describing how he is the only way to the Father.

Context of verse: Jesus is describing the arrival of the Holy Spirit and addressing how the disciples are now feeling sadness over Christ's leaving more than questioning where he is going.  He's explained to them where his is going in previous chapters.

1. As far as I can tell, the relevant contextual feature of these passages I quoted remains invariant: they all occur within the "Farewell Discourse" of Jesus, a single (putative) event described in John chapters 13-17 -- a dinner. Does anything in the text indicate otherwise?

2. It isn't clear what you take the import of the contextual features you mentioned to be: so what if Jesus was discussing Peter's eventual betrayal the first time he was queried about where he was going? How does this nullify that a later passage seemingly indicates that he is unaware of this and Thomas' query?

The time and location has changed nowÖ..

3. Maybe, maybe not. But I'm hoping that we can discuss what's in the text itself, not the footnotes under the text punched up two millenia afterward. In other words, I'm hoping we can focus on questions of the form "What does the text say about x?" rather than what believers are taught to think. Since I take you to be reasonably intelligent, I'm sure that this will be possible.
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« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2013, 11:33:40 AM »

1. As far as I can tell, the relevant contextual feature of these passages I quoted remains invariant: they all occur within the "Farewell Discourse" of Jesus, a single (putative) event described in John chapters 13-17 -- a dinner. Does anything in the text indicate otherwise?

2. It isn't clear what you take the import of the contextual features you mentioned to be: so what if Jesus was discussing Peter's eventual betrayal the first time he was queried about where he was going? How does this nullify that a later passage seemingly indicates that he is unaware of this and Thomas' query?

3. Maybe, maybe not. But I'm hoping that we can discuss what's in the text itself, not the footnotes under the text punched up two millenia afterward. In other words, I'm hoping we can focus on questions of the form "What does the text say about x?" rather than what believers are taught to think. Since I take you to be reasonably intelligent, I'm sure that this will be possible.

If you prefer that we shift gears now that's fine.  We can discuss what the whole of the text states as opposed to what you initially presented.  

I added nothing from footnotes or any apologetic discourse....it didn't require that.   I simply googled the chapters and filled in the gaps you left because I knew there were some.

Your initial objection was about "forgetful Jesus at the dinner table", but two very short verses of additional scripture (John 14:31 and John 16:6) clarify that at the very least the setting had changed and that there was no forgetfulness (Christ noted a shift in the disciples' perspective....one from questioning to grieving).  

The whole of the chapters add that much more context, but you are correct that the theme of the chapters is Jesus saying goodbye and telling his disciples about what's to come.

If you'd like to discuss the whole of the chapters now I'm happy to oblige.
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« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2013, 12:44:49 PM »

Here's what stands out to me as the reason it's not all at the same location....but you've got to appreciate the thread title Grin

Peter: "Lord, where are you going?"
John 13:36

Thomas: "Lord, we do not know where you are going"
John 14:5


John 14:31b  "COME NOW, LET US LEAVE." (NIV)


Jesus: "Now I am going to the one who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?'"
John 16:5

This was all at the same dinner table, apparently.
 
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R
syntaxmachine
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2013, 11:03:38 PM »

I added nothing from footnotes or any apologetic discourse....it didn't require that.   I simply googled the chapters and filled in the gaps you left because I knew there were some.

And imbued them with a rather specific interpretation such that the statement "There isn't any inconsistency here" is rendered true. Maybe that's the right interpretation, but it doesn't seem to be easily derivable from the text itself.

Perhaps I'm an idiot, but as far as I can tell my original point is still unresolved: within the context of "a single (putative) event described in John chapters 13-17," Jesus receives multiple queries, after which he indicates that he has not received any such queries.

John 13:36 and 14:5 indicate that (grievingly or not) the questions are asked -- those are definitely question marks -- and John 16:5 indicates that Jesus doesn't recognize that the precise question asked of him in 13:36 was in fact asked of him (notice the single quotation marks in Jesus' words, indicating a use-mention distinction, a crucial difference from if Jesus had simply said, "Why isn't anybody asking me where I'm going?").

We may presume in advance the continuity and consistency of the text and thus artificially constrain the set of possible answers here (a nasty habit of most Christians*), but needless to say that wouldn't be a principled move -- plus, it disallows far simpler explanations that are on offer.

Almighty Gnome be with you

*Most atheists have nasty habits of their own, of course
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 07:28:13 AM »

And imbued them with a rather specific interpretation such that the statement "There isn't any inconsistency here" is rendered true. Maybe that's the right interpretation, but it doesn't seem to be easily derivable from the text itself.

Perhaps I'm an idiot, but as far as I can tell my original point is still unresolved: within the context of "a single (putative) event described in John chapters 13-17," Jesus receives multiple queries, after which he indicates that he has not received any such queries.

John 13:36 and 14:5 indicate that (grievingly or not) the questions are asked -- those are definitely question marks -- and John 16:5 indicates that Jesus doesn't recognize that the precise question asked of him in 13:36 was in fact asked of him (notice the single quotation marks in Jesus' words, indicating a use-mention distinction, a crucial difference from if Jesus had simply said, "Why isn't anybody asking me where I'm going?").

We may presume in advance the continuity and consistency of the text and thus artificially constrain the set of possible answers here (a nasty habit of most Christians*), but needless to say that wouldn't be a principled move -- plus, it disallows far simpler explanations that are on offer.

Almighty Gnome be with you

*Most atheists have nasty habits of their own, of course

Let me just start by saying that I do not think you are an idiot LOL!!   I welcome the questions regardless of the motivation behind them.  Sometimes I have answers at my fingertips, other times I have to study.  Iíve read these passages a number of times in the past (and again when you questioned them) and never questioned them because I saw nothing to question.

Although not impossible, it's hard for me it imagine that John would not catch an obvious mistake or contradiction in his writing.  I have to consider the inspiration and intent behind the writer and give John the benefit of the doubt.  Yes, John was a normal guy so I acknowledge the potential for human error regardless of divine inspiration.

I also have to consider the intent of the reader.  Is the scripture read by the unbeliever through the lense of "seeking God's truth and purposes for his/her life" or is the unbeliever reading through the lense of "I don't believe this bible crap from the get go, but this bit of text will really stump for those sorry theists".  I pray for the first, but most often I'm confronted with the latter.  

On the other hand, has the believer read the text at all?  If so has the believer truly questioned confusing passages or asked questions about the material?  Has the believer prayed over the material, consulted with more mature believers, etc.....about confusing material?  

Subjecting material to questioning is a good thing IMHO.   Often forces me to deep dive into the material and get to the roots, but sometimes those deep dives arenít necessary.   Iíll reach out and see if theologians have any comments on these passages.  Iíve never encountered this particular objection before.

I read John 16:5-6 and donít see a contradiction with previous chapters.  I see Christ saying, ďFellas, itís time for me to go.  A little while back you repeatedly asked where Iím headed, but now youíve stopped asking me that.  Now you understand where Iím headed and youíre upset that Iím leaving and that you canít come with me now.Ē  Certainly I see the question and the question mark repeated in the verse, but that bit of extra context in the chapter clears up confusion.  I think we can agree that it is possible to say someting 3, 4 or 5 different ways and mean the same thing.

Sure, today I read scripture and Iím confident in itÖ.Iím confident in it because of Christ.  That wasnít always the case thoughÖ.there were many years of doubt and frustration.   The revelation of the Holy Spirit in my life has made all the difference.  Iím not suggesting that my opinions are always correctÖ..certainly not the case LOL!!   Still, I have confidence in Christ and Christ alone.  

And may flying spaghetti monster be with you too!
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