Author Topic: Tren acetate/tren enanthate  (Read 11275 times)

Arnold jr

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2005, 03:26:03 PM »
1250MG Sustanon ew is high, any reason you want this dosage?

900MG Deca ew is unreasonable.  I can't see any possible reason to go this high.

You don't want to use an aromatase inihibitor?

You would be better off using HCG on-cycle because Deca is very supressive.

Waiting until the end will be harsh, IMO.





DIV
Agreed.

This cycle is no good in a number of aspects.

G

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2006, 11:08:18 PM »
Agreed.

This cycle is no good in a number of aspects.

explain why? but dont even mention anything with lessthan 100 mg of test a week

freakfestMD

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2006, 07:39:16 AM »
The reasons have been explained, very well by DIV actually.

So take the advice or don't--but if you don't, keep us posted on how you do.  I think you would be an excellent choice as a research lab rat for us.  And who knows?  Maybe you'll be just fine...

G

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2006, 09:06:20 AM »
The reasons have been explained, very well by DIV actually.

So take the advice or don't--but if you don't, keep us posted on how you do.  I think you would be an excellent choice as a research lab rat for us.  And who knows?  Maybe you'll be just fine...

what advice?what the hell r u even talking about ?

Luv2Hurt

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2006, 09:12:32 AM »
Yes.

Excess prolactin from Deca and Tren can be a problem for some people.......

Dostinex also has the added benefit of helping your sex drive.

Prolactin is the chemical that make you feel sluggish after orgasm, Dostinex blocks this thereby allowing you to go again right after.





DIV

Alright everyone is prolactin crazy here, this not an issue with deca, it's projesterone that causes the problems and dostinex, bromo and the like will not affect that.

DIVISION

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2006, 09:07:05 PM »
Alright everyone is prolactin crazy here, this not an issue with deca, it's projesterone that causes the problems and dostinex, bromo and the like will not affect that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the excess progesterone produced by Deca that induces prolactin secretion ultimately?

That's what I had believed to be the case.




DIV
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Luv2Hurt

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2006, 05:00:34 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the excess progesterone produced by Deca that induces prolactin secretion ultimately?

That's what I had believed to be the case.




DIV

I will admit this is a topic that Marble jumped on a while ago.  And my knowledge is based on the info he presented then.  But it said that this rarely if ever is an issue. 

I will be the first to admit I suck at researching studies, but will try to find some facts to back this up.

I think thats one of the reasons marble got sick of it......he had to spoon feed us everything.  He was the only guy doing the research and work.

I will say this that if and when Big-O returns that cat is awesome with the studies and must have a 1,000 of em bookmarked.  I'm trying to get better at em, but those guys were so damn smart.

So I will not correct you, until I can get more than what I remember from marble.

freakfestMD

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2006, 02:33:53 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the excess progesterone produced by Deca that induces prolactin secretion ultimately?

That's what I had believed to be the case.




DIV

This is an interesting question you have raised here Div.  I'm not an endocrinologist, and I don't claim to be, and most of what I know about prolactin and any relationship it has to progesterone comes from learning about the female reproduction cycle and specifically the mechanisms of prolactin induction of lactation at the end of pregnancy back in med school.

Deca, as well as several of its metabolites, can activate the progesterone receptor.  This progestagenic effect can mediate an estrogenic response in some human tissues.  So while nandrolone typically is felt to have fairly low androgenic side-effects, it's activity as a progesterone is augmented when there is estrogen in the system (as when it is stacked with other compounds).

Now, the question is whether progesterone has some influence on prolactin secretion or prolactin effect.  Prolactin is secreted by the anterior pituitary, with it's major action being induction of lactation in gravid (pregnant) females. 

Prolactin secretion is primarily under inhibitory control by dopamine, which is the primary prolactin-inhibiting factor. Progesterone, as well, INTERFERES with prolactin action at the prolactin receptor (located on the alveoli cells of breast tissue).   However, estrogen and progesterone are required to get full activity of the prolactin receptor.  Progesterone antagonizes the positive action of prolactin by (1) inhibiting upregulation of the prolactin receptor, (2) reducing estrogen binding, and (3) competing for binding at the glucocorticoid receptor.  The reason that lactation can still occur at the end of pregnancy, though, is due to the fact that there is more rapid progesterone clearance in contrast to prolactin due to the prolonged prolactin elevation that occurs. 

So, what are the implications, here, if any?  It seems that the presence of progesterone is required to turn on the prolactin receptor, even though it acts to antagonize prolactin's action.  I could find nothing to indicate, however, that the mere presence of progesterone in any way increases the release of prolactin from the pituitary.  I do not, therefore, see a plausible explanation for a reputed rise in prolactin levels due to the stimulation of the progesterone receptor by a compound such as nandrolone. 

I therefore agree with the comments of luv2hurt.  

If anyone else can give evidence of this, please respond.


Luv2Hurt

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2006, 04:02:41 PM »
Thank you freak that is the kind of scientific data we need here. 

Your med skills are quite obvious.  Thanks for taking the time out of what i know is a VERY busy schedule. 

I hope this helps some of the fears people were having with this issue (non-issue)  No reason to be taking all kinds of unnecessary drugs to combat a problem that does not exist.




DIVISION

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2006, 08:28:52 PM »
So, what are the implications, here, if any?  It seems that the presence of progesterone is required to turn on the prolactin receptor, even though it acts to antagonize prolactin's action.  I could find nothing to indicate, however, that the mere presence of progesterone in any way increases the release of prolactin from the pituitary.  I do not, therefore, see a plausible explanation for a reputed rise in prolactin levels due to the stimulation of the progesterone receptor by a compound such as nandrolone.

As of yet, there are no studies that specifically pertain to the population, namely bodybuilders using Deca.  I had read it somewhere that the influx of progesterone stimulates prolactin secretion, and I don't remember where.  I will try and find that.  It was not a study, it was written by a guru.........Author L. Rea or William Llewellyn most likely......

Let me try and find it when I have time.




DIV
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Blake

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2006, 09:13:09 PM »
I cannot seem to find anything online, actual research or otherwise that indicates progesterone alone is able to induce prolactin secretion.  I spent a long time browsing PubMed today, and could find no study where hyperprolactinemia was induced using ONLY progesterone.

This is a good article along the same subject lines: (yes, I removed the references)


"From Avant Labs...by Nandi

PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA


Before delving into this subject, I’d like to say first and foremost, that in users of anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS) the first step in combating the development of gynecomastia, or male breast enlargement, is to eliminate the causative agent: the anabolic steroid. Drug-induced gynecomastia almost invariably resolves on its own when a person quits taking the drugs responsible for it, if caught before permanent fibrosis develops. Unfortunately, most AAS users don’t want to employ this simple approach, for obvious reasons, so the foregoing will all be under the assumption that a person wants to prevent or treat gyno and still continue steroid use.

In the belief that certain anabolic steroids increase prolactin levels as well as act as agonists at the progesterone receptor, some have advocated the use of antiprolactin agents, like bromocriptine, or progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 to treat AAS related gynecomastia, in lieu of more traditional drugs like tamoxifen.

In truth, the etiology of gynecomastia is unknown and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF-1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to ameliorating the problem.

Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (19). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, are often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: “Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism”. (20). However, this is a moot issue in AAS users whose gonadotropin secretion is already blunted.

According to research cited in (20), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels:


The presence of mild hyperprolactinaemia is therefore not uncommon in patients with estrogen excess. Significant primary hyperprolactinaemia, on the other hand, may directly stimulate epithelial cell proliferation in an estrogen-primed breast, causing epithelial cell proliferation and gynaecomastia.

So rather than focusing solely on lowering prolactin levels which may be elevated in users of aromatizing androgens, attacking estrogen should be the first line of action.

GH and IGF-1 are considered critical to the proliferation of mammary tissue. An excellent review of the role played by these hormones, as well as a general overview of gynecomastia can be found here:


Since elevated GH and IGF-1 are considered important to the anabolic effect of AAS, it would be impractical and counterproductive to attempt to prevent gynecomastia by blocking GH/IGF.

Progesterone acts in concert with estrogen to promote breast development, and at least part of any role played by synthetic progestins may be to stimulate IGF-1 production in the breast. But again, blocking the action of progesterone or synthetic progestins is not practical. Specific progesterone receptor antagonists like RU-486 block not only the progesterone receptor, but the androgen receptor as well, and have actually been associated with the development of gynecomastia (21). In any case, progesterone is thought to act on the breast to enhance the effects of estrogen (22) so once again, attacking estrogen is the easiest and most logical approach.

DHT gel (Andractim) or a generic knockoff might help as well. DHT is thought to act as an aromatase inhibitor (23) and perhaps compete directly with estrogen for binding at the estrogen receptor (24). DHT has been used in several case reports and controlled trials to successfully treat gynecomastia. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to combine DHT gel with tamoxifen. I would recommend tamoxifen rather than an aromatase inhibitor due to the simple fact that tamoxifen has been widely used in numerous controlled studies to succesfully treat gynecomastia, whereas the evidence to support the efficacy of aromatase inhibitors is scanty at best.

Undoubtedly, due to space limitations, I have left out a number of what are surely many readers’ pet myths. Perhaps in a future issue we can address more of these myths and questionable notions. Feedback is always welcome, and if readers wish to submit their ideas for myths that need to be examined in the future, please feel free to contact Mind & Muscle with your ideas."


I've posted some questions about this topic elsewhere, so hopefully I'll gather some more info on it soon.


DIVISION

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Re: Tren acetate/tren enanthate
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2006, 11:02:39 PM »
I cannot seem to find anything online, actual research or otherwise that indicates progesterone alone is able to induce prolactin secretion.  I spent a long time browsing PubMed today, and could find no study where hyperprolactinemia was induced using ONLY progesterone.

I don't think it's a matter of Progesterone in itself causing Prolactin secretion, but possibly a combination of factors including Progesterone.

That if anything would be my best guess.





DIV
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