Author Topic: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon  (Read 15363 times)

Griffith

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2013, 06:52:44 AM »
The USA and Europe are still the leaders in terms of science, medicine technology, academics, innovation and new inventions.
When the Roman Empire started going in decline, so did its levels of art, construction and quality of manufacturing and equipment. I think this is important.

If the West starts regressing in these areas, then I'd say the balance of power would be shifting towards China.

But currently, they and much of Asia, generally don't encourage initiative, questioning, criticism and critical thinking. Could be down to Confucianism, religion and government structures of their history which they still follow to a degree. A system which favours smoothness and harmony at the expense of individuality and criticism.

phreak

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower REAL Soon
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2013, 07:09:50 AM »
As much as it pains me to say it, because I love to travel, it's these type of policies that have several countries in Europe failing.  Say what you want about fat lazy Americans, we work ourselves to death, and that's how we are able to afford what we have. (for the most part)
I see your point, but don't confuse working long hours with being productive. If long hours are the standard, then India would be a paradise instead of the shithole that it actually is.  :-X What is the actual value produced during those hours, that is the only valid metric.

Honestly an n=1 observation, but my US colleagues are not more productive than we are here in Europe. A bit less even, but the difference is negligible. They do work (i.e. "are present at their desks") long hours though, whereas here people struggle to fill their 36 hours per week with work. Minesweeper FTW. ;) So I get a lot of talk out of NY about how hard they work, and how cut-throat competition is, but the only thing they excell at is self-aggrandizing.

*edit*
If it is any consolation, I see the same behavior on Germany. A lot of talk about working hard, but little extra to show for it.

Griffith

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower REAL Soon
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2013, 07:36:14 AM »
I see your point, but don't confuse working long hours with being productive. If long hours are the standard, then India would be a paradise instead of the shithole that it actually is.  :-X What is the actual value produced during those hours, that is the only valid metric.

Honestly an n=1 observation, but my US colleagues are not more productive than we are here in Europe. A bit less even, but the difference is negligible. They do work (i.e. "are present at their desks") long hours though, whereas here people struggle to fill their 36 hours per week with work. Minesweeper FTW. ;) So I get a lot of talk out of NY about how hard they work, and how cut-throat competition is, but the only thing they excell at is self-aggrandizing.

*edit*
If it is any consolation, I see the same behavior on Germany. A lot of talk about working hard, but little extra to show for it.

Your are right. In economics, it is productivity that matters in this case.

Tapeworm

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2013, 07:44:02 AM »
Seem like a real enough threat to me.  Supreme manpower, nuclear, technologically sophisticated enough to trump the rest of the world in space, self sufficient industry (are we even anymore?), opposed political ideology, racist as hell, bloody as hell history, united in purpose, and with a belief in their own momentum.

The foilhatter in me says US wars are about grabbing the lubricant that moves the world before the Chinese giant is awake enough to do it.  The US is moving in the Pacific, or at least there was a to-do about US troops in Darwin, a Chinese objection, and then the usual who-knows what came of it.  And I hope someone is working hard to drive a wedge between China and India.  No one talks about India much but I believe they are of tipping point importance.

How about instead of China collapsing upon itself if the West fails enough to stop buying Chinese goods, they put a rifle in every able bodied man's hands and send him forth?  Counting aircraft carriers and stealth bombers is ok too but a tsunami of determined armed men would be no joke, and our embarrassing military performance in the ME and sliding world popularity probably emboldens the more imperial of the Chinese leadership.  I'm not saying they would attempt a mainland invasion of North America but they could take the Pacific, including Australia/NZ, and be entrenched before the US and allies could do anything about it.

Thinking of them as hopeless little yellow men whose only ambition is to make widgets for us is dangerous.  There's way too much smug self-satisfaction on the part of a declining West and a little good old fashioned fear would be a healthy thing.  They're a real threat.

Parker

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2013, 07:57:35 AM »
^of course they are not happy making widgets, nobody is.
That is why many of their workers are wanting an increase in pay, and why many corporations are moving towards Africa and other countries for cheap labor. Many call centers now are moving from India to the Phillipines due to the fact that they are able to mimic American accents.

China's population pyramid shows that their work force has grown older not, younger, plus a lack of women, and their self imposed 1 child stipulation, factor in as well. Then there is the lack of innovation, as someone spoke on before, and the love of western goods.

Yes, the west is declining, but can we pop back up? Time will see

FitnessFrenzy

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2013, 08:14:48 AM »
"Very soon we will get the girls financial world domination"[/size]



Tapeworm

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2013, 08:23:33 AM »
^of course they are not happy making widgets, nobody is.
That is why many of their workers are wanting an increase in pay, and why many corporations are moving towards Africa and other countries for cheap labor. Many call centers now are moving from India to the Phillipines due to the fact that they are able to mimic American accents.

China's population pyramid shows that their work force has grown older not, younger, plus a lack of women, and their self imposed 1 child stipulation, factor in as well. Then there is the lack of innovation, as someone spoke on before, and the love of western goods.

Yes, the west is declining, but can we pop back up? Time will see

I don't agree at all that Chinese lack the ability to innovate.  What a weird claim.  They innovated like crazy for thousands of years.  Beat the west to plenty.  They're clever people, same as us.  

Best to err on the side of underconfidence.  


JOHN MATRIX

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2013, 08:51:41 AM »
Seem like a real enough threat to me.  Supreme manpower, nuclear, technologically sophisticated enough to trump the rest of the world in space, self sufficient industry (are we even anymore?), opposed political ideology, racist as hell, bloody as hell history, united in purpose, and with a belief in their own momentum.

The foilhatter in me says US wars are about grabbing the lubricant that moves the world before the Chinese giant is awake enough to do it.  The US is moving in the Pacific, or at least there was a to-do about US troops in Darwin, a Chinese objection, and then the usual who-knows what came of it.  And I hope someone is working hard to drive a wedge between China and India.  No one talks about India much but I believe they are of tipping point importance.

How about instead of China collapsing upon itself if the West fails enough to stop buying Chinese goods, they put a rifle in every able bodied man's hands and send him forth?  Counting aircraft carriers and stealth bombers is ok too but a tsunami of determined armed men would be no joke, and our embarrassing military performance in the ME and sliding world popularity probably emboldens the more imperial of the Chinese leadership.  I'm not saying they would attempt a mainland invasion of North America but they could take the Pacific, including Australia/NZ, and be entrenched before the US and allies could do anything about it.

Thinking of them as hopeless little yellow men whose only ambition is to make widgets for us is dangerous.  There's way too much smug self-satisfaction on the part of a declining West and a little good old fashioned fear would be a healthy thing.  They're a real threat.

Exactly, as the germans in russia, and the confederates in the civil war found out, sometimes there is no substitue for sheer manpower. China can put more men into battle than the whole US and EU combined. I think that's the reason for the india thing...the only way to counter chinas overwhelming manpower is to be able to tap india's. Lol.

Parker

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #83 on: October 07, 2013, 09:10:13 AM »
I don't agree at all that Chinese lack the ability to innovate.  What a weird claim.  They innovated like crazy for thousands of years.  Beat the west to plenty.  They're clever people, same as us.  

Best to err on the side of underconfidence.  


That was then, this is now. It's been around for 5,000 years. if a country has been around that long, i'd hope it would develop and innovate something. Their corporate culture encourages theft, cheating and lack of innovation.
It almost seems indicative of some sort of shared or similar Asian cultural aspects of South East Asian in origin. I don't know. The Japanese and Koreans have it---copy, copy, copy....don't stand out...
The Japanese car manufacturers are well known for their "wait for the Germans to come out with new tech, and we will copy it when the bugs are worked out" mentality....which is one of the reasons why things are slow comig out of the pipe for them. Another is not criticizing leadership, which one of the reasons why Honda is losing it's path.

Griffith

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #84 on: October 07, 2013, 10:17:22 AM »
I don't agree at all that Chinese lack the ability to innovate.  What a weird claim.  They innovated like crazy for thousands of years.  Beat the west to plenty.  They're clever people, same as us.  

Best to err on the side of underconfidence.  



Yes, but their civilization stayed at the same levels or stagnated for a very long time.

The reason why the West was behind for a period was due to the Roman Empire falling and barbarian invasion which set the clock back and put Europe into the Dark Ages. It took a long while just to get back to similar standards of the Western Roman Empire.
But when they did start recovering, it was a very rapid rise in terms of art, technology and innovation.

Tapeworm

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #85 on: October 07, 2013, 10:27:53 AM »
That was then, this is now. It's been around for 5,000 years. if a country has been around that long, i'd hope it would develop and innovate something. Their corporate culture encourages theft, cheating and lack of innovation.
It almost seems indicative of some sort of shared or similar Asian cultural aspects of South East Asian in origin. I don't know. The Japanese and Koreans have it---copy, copy, copy....don't stand out...
The Japanese car manufacturers are well known for their "wait for the Germans to come out with new tech, and we will copy it when the bugs are worked out" mentality....which is one of the reasons why things are slow comig out of the pipe for them. Another is not criticizing leadership, which one of the reasons why Honda is losing it's path.


I really can't speak to any of that except to say that I imagine a similar corporate culture exists to some degree in the West.  I'm guessing, of course, but this stuff doesn't strike me as uniquely Asian.

All I'm saying is we shouldn't be dismissive of China as a military threat on the basis of having some big hardware.  The US is already extended militarily, economically, industrially, even culturally, and if I were China I'd be making friends and waiting for a time when the planets come into alignment.

Tapeworm

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #86 on: October 07, 2013, 10:43:09 AM »
Yes, but their civilization stayed at the same levels or stagnated for a very long time.

The reason why the West was behind for a period was due to the Roman Empire falling and barbarian invasion which set the clock back and put Europe into the Dark Ages. It took a long while just to get back to similar standards of the Western Roman Empire.
But when they did start recovering, it was a very rapid rise in terms of art, technology and innovation.

Sure.  There's a gazillion reasons why a culture would progress, stew, regress, amalgamate, concentrate, dissipate, whatever.  Happened there same as in Europe.  It seems intellectually lazy to cast all that aside and just label a race or culture as 'innately X, by their nature.' 

They're deadly little monkeys just like we are.


El Diablo Blanco

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #87 on: October 07, 2013, 10:47:35 AM »
1. A per capita GDP similar to such luminaries as Jamaica and Thailand, ranked #93 in the world.

2. Epic poverty:

Live less than $1.25 a day 13.1% (172 million)
Live less than $2 a day 29.8% (394 million)
Live less than $2.5 a day   39.9% (528 million)
Live less than $4 a day    62% (821 million)
Live less than $5 a day    71.6% (948 million)


An estimated 200 million people in China are homeless. Estimates tend to be conservative, and there will be many more in awful accommodation which can hardly be counted as homely.

3. Artificially stimulated GDP growth: there are entire ghost cities of empty apartment buildings with prices kept artificially high in a bid to at least maintain GDP growth, when in fact many of the goods and services contributing to these figures are neither needed nor wanted, hence not worth even remotely close to what they are claimed to be.

4. A crappy language: Mandarin is highly inefficient, takes ages to learn, and is worthless, since the only moderately well-off places in China are in big cities and generally speak good English. The opportunity cost of learning something like Mandarin is enormous.

5. A super high savings rate: seemingly an asset, the savings rate is a result of Chinese households recognizing that there aren't really social programs to prop them up in the event of disaster (the way some want it in the States), plus a conscious decision by central planners to pursue an export driven growth model.

The result is an unsustainable situation in which export-driven growth needs to be replaced with more domestic consumption, something it isn't clear the central planners will be able to pull off. Failure will in all probability lead to significant, possibly fatal social unrest (see (2) above) while success will mean significantly lower growth rates, quite the dilemma.

6. A largely unproven, shite military with low quality equipment and little R&D spending, plus an embarrassingly small class of the sorts of naval vessels that allow power projection abroad (read: ONE), a necessary but not sufficient capability for any superpower:





7. An overtly authoritarian model of thought control that stifles excellence in intellectual pursuits and thus technological/scientific advancement: Ireland has more nobel prize winners than China (9 vs 8; US=338), and China is known to imprison its own winners (see: Liu Xiaobo).

But yes, they are going to supersede the US and become a world superpower very, VERY soon. Say hello to your new overlords!  ::)

So by your math there are over 3 billion people in China?  

Griffith

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #88 on: October 07, 2013, 10:48:01 AM »
Sure.  There's a gazillion reasons why a culture would progress, stew, regress, amalgamate, concentrate, dissipate, whatever.  Happened there same as in Europe.  It seems intellectually lazy to cast all that aside and just label a race or culture as 'innately X, by their nature.'  

They're deadly little monkeys just like we are.



Yes, things can change, so the West needs to keep trying to improve and stay ahead.


Schmoff

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #89 on: October 07, 2013, 10:55:10 AM »
getbiggers talking politics on getbig


Schmoff

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #90 on: October 07, 2013, 10:55:48 AM »
china


avxo

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #91 on: October 07, 2013, 11:02:48 AM »
So by your math there are over 2 billion people in China? 

How do you figure?

Tapeworm

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #92 on: October 07, 2013, 11:09:39 AM »
getbiggers talking politics on getbig



I just wanted to call someone a little monkey and get away with it.  And I would have succeeded too if it weren't for you meddling kids.

Parker

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #93 on: October 07, 2013, 01:18:33 PM »
I really can't speak to any of that except to say that I imagine a similar corporate culture exists to some degree in the West.  I'm guessing, of course, but this stuff doesn't strike me as uniquely Asian.

All I'm saying is we shouldn't be dismissive of China as a military threat on the basis of having some big hardware.  The US is already extended militarily, economically, industrially, even culturally, and if I were China I'd be making friends and waiting for a time when the planets come into alignment.
China needs all their man power to keep all those people in line...when the parents are away, the kids will play...

One of the many problems with America is the corporate culture...the corporations care not about America's future, only about profit...how can a child not care about it's mother? Has the child learned to be a ruthless as it's mother (the US being ruthless in how it has treated it's own people and others in order to become what it is today)?

Roger Bacon

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower REAL Soon
« Reply #94 on: October 07, 2013, 01:21:03 PM »
I see your point, but don't confuse working long hours with being productive. If long hours are the standard, then India would be a paradise instead of the shithole that it actually is.  :-X What is the actual value produced during those hours, that is the only valid metric.

Honestly an n=1 observation, but my US colleagues are not more productive than we are here in Europe. A bit less even, but the difference is negligible. They do work (i.e. "are present at their desks") long hours though, whereas here people struggle to fill their 36 hours per week with work. Minesweeper FTW. ;) So I get a lot of talk out of NY about how hard they work, and how cut-throat competition is, but the only thing they excell at is self-aggrandizing.

*edit*
If it is any consolation, I see the same behavior on Germany. A lot of talk about working hard, but little extra to show for it.

Your are right. In economics, it is productivity that matters in this case.

Americans Are World's Most Productive Workers, U.N. Report Finds
Associated Press

GENEVA –  American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.

They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States "leads the world in labor productivity."

The average U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, followed by Luxembourg at $55,641, Belgium at $55,235 and France at $54,609.


Bevo

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #95 on: October 07, 2013, 01:40:25 PM »
That was then, this is now. It's been around for 5,000 years. if a country has been around that long, i'd hope it would develop and innovate something. Their corporate culture encourages theft, cheating and lack of innovation.
It almost seems indicative of some sort of shared or similar Asian cultural aspects of South East Asian in origin. I don't know. The Japanese and Koreans have it---copy, copy, copy....don't stand out...
The Japanese car manufacturers are well known for their "wait for the Germans to come out with new tech, and we will copy it when the bugs are worked out" mentality....which is one of the reasons why things are slow comig out of the pipe for them. Another is not criticizing leadership, which one of the reasons why Honda is losing it's path.


Lol where do u get your source from? Seems u and others hear what someone saids and just regurgitates the same thing...

Research your cars a bit more, in the past, yes, but not current, as far as Japanese cars go :D LFA, Supra, 300zx, GTR, FRS, etc.... One example : Japanese were perfecting electric steering on the NSX and that car was waaaay ahead of its time before the Germans even did electric steering and yet still can't get it right


Parker

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #96 on: October 07, 2013, 02:28:54 PM »
Lol where do u get your source from? Seems u and others hear what someone saids and just regurgitates the same thing...

Research your cars a bit more, in the past, yes, but not current, as far as Japanese cars go :D LFA, Supra, 300zx, GTR, FRS, etc.... One example : Japanese were perfecting electric steering on the NSX and that car was waaaay ahead of its time before the Germans even did electric steering and yet still can't get it right


Historically, the Japanese when it comes to tech in their luxury cars waited for the Germans to come out with the tech, as the Germans used the customer as guinea pigs...when they worked the clichés out, the Japanese would perfect that tech. They also took to bringing things to market a long time. Lexus is well known for this. And this one of the reasons why lexus and other Japanese manufacturers have a rep for reliability. The LFA went thru several iterations, and had to be re-engineered, brocade it came out.
The FRS is the result of Toyota's top man wanting Toyota to have "drivers" cars, to have fun. The GT-R would be still a Concept if it wasn't for Renault's money and Ghosn at the helm.
300zx, was good (I want one), but a result of the 90s pricing.
The new 911's with their EPS are damn good.
NSX was great, but long in tooth...still looks like an exotic today, and was one of the reasons. Why Ferrari brought out the F355.

Bottom line, it's a cultural thing with Japan and the corporate/car/product culture. It's like a tool , a tool must be reliable. An appliance must be reliable, so it's designed that way. Not to say that new tech cannot be put into the design, but untried new tech, defeats the purpose of reliability.
The Germans want to come out with all types of new tech, just look at the "new" S class (on the same chassis as the "old" S class, just like the "new" Lexus LS), all this new tech that they brought out.

drmarkp

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #97 on: October 07, 2013, 03:11:23 PM »
This..

Bevo

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #98 on: October 07, 2013, 04:35:28 PM »
Historically, the Japanese when it comes to tech in their luxury cars waited for the Germans to come out with the tech, as the Germans used the customer as guinea pigs...when they worked the clichés out, the Japanese would perfect that tech. They also took to bringing things to market a long time. Lexus is well known for this. And this one of the reasons why lexus and other Japanese manufacturers have a rep for reliability. The LFA went thru several iterations, and had to be re-engineered, brocade it came out.
The FRS is the result of Toyota's top man wanting Toyota to have "drivers" cars, to have fun. The GT-R would be still a Concept if it wasn't for Renault's money and Ghosn at the helm.
300zx, was good (I want one), but a result of the 90s pricing.
The new 911's with their EPS are damn good.
NSX was great, but long in tooth...still looks like an exotic today, and was one of the reasons. Why Ferrari brought out the F355.

Bottom line, it's a cultural thing with Japan and the corporate/car/product culture. It's like a tool , a tool must be reliable. An appliance must be reliable, so it's designed that way. Not to say that new tech cannot be put into the design, but untried new tech, defeats the purpose of reliability.
The Germans want to come out with all types of new tech, just look at the "new" S class (on the same chassis as the "old" S class, just like the "new" Lexus LS), all this new tech that they brought out.


Actually Germans can't do electronics reliably to save their life compared to the Japanese no matter who comes out with the tech first Italians even worse

Germans do too many nonsense tech that no one cares about, they just do it just because.

It's not only about waiting and perfecting that's a myth with little truth to it, the Germans main concern over the years were suspension, sporty, driving cars for the most part, reliability was an after thought, Japanese has always been about putting out a high quality product that lasts and can be driven forever.

These yrs things have changed the Germans are noticing that customers care about reliability and have improved.

The GTR has been in existence since I think the 60's....as skylines

Honda built some of the best engines in F1 at a time when Aryton Senna was racing.

They were so good McLaren wanted them to build the V12 for their super car in 1995, Honda refused so they went with BMW

all of saying is the Japanese don't get enough credit for things and everyone spews the same shit

I say dig deeper Parker and read more about the automotive side instead of car comparisons  :D

Bevo

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Re: China Set to Become Epic Superpower VERY Soon
« Reply #99 on: October 07, 2013, 04:40:17 PM »
And the 911 electric steering is not they great, go drive one... Don't read what's in magazines, as a matter of fact the mags are saying its not that great either....

NSX is long in the tooth no denying that but for its time and even a lot of enthusiasts today consider it one of the best cars ever! Early models were very hardcore, 91-93, superb chassis, first car ever all aluminum  later models got softer and less rigid in chassis, steering and suspension  ;)