Author Topic: South Carolina House passes bill making ‘Obamacare’ implementation a crime  (Read 1425 times)

avxo

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Nah.  Public opinion does matter.  If the majority of the country is opposed to a law like this, that was passed in the manner in which it was (party-line vote), Congress should work to repeal it.  If they cannot repeal it, but can refuse to fund it, they should do so, if that's what the country wants.  

I'm not suggesting polls should dictate public policy, but they shouldn't be completely ignored either.  

We live in a Republic. We vote for people who will go to Congress to use their judgement to vote on things, not opinion polls.

I wish fewer people slept through civics class...

Kazan

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We live in a representative republic, representative being the key word.....
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avxo

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We live in a representative republic, representative being the key word.....

Please tell us what a representative Republic is, how it is distinct from a Republic and what establishes the United States as such a representative Republic.

Thanks.

Dos Equis

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We live in a Republic. We vote for people who will go to Congress to use their judgement to vote on things, not opinion polls.

I wish fewer people slept through civics class...

Is that what you learned in "civics class"? 

Here is what I learned in the real world.  In our democracy, people run for public office pledging to represent the will of the people.  That's why elected representatives continually meet with constituents, to get the constituents' opinions.  That's why elected representatives have staff members who are continually meeting with members of the public and trying to address concerns raised by the public.  Any good elected representative pays attention to what his or her community is talking about and what his or her community wants.  That's why opinion polls, although not determinative, are far from "irrelevant." 

But they might not teach you that in "civics class." 

AndreaRyc

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Is that what you learned in "civics class"? 

Here is what I learned in the real world.  In our democracy, people run for public office pledging to represent the will of the people.  That's why elected representatives continually meet with constituents, to get the constituents' opinions.  That's why elected representatives have staff members who are continually meeting with members of the public and trying to address concerns raised by the public.  Any good elected representative pays attention to what his or her community is talking about and what his or her community wants.  That's why opinion polls, although not determinative, are far from "irrelevant." 

But they might not teach you that in "civics class." 
He's Street.

Ya Know what I'm talkin' 'bout?

Dos Equis

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He's Street.

Ya Know what I'm talkin' 'bout?


Thank you garebear. 

Roger Bacon

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Thank you garebear. 

No!!

Damn, that would make sense!  :o

Archer77

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A

Dos Equis

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 :)

Kazan

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Please tell us what a representative Republic is, how it is distinct from a Republic and what establishes the United States as such a representative Republic.

Thanks.

Our representatives ( see what I did there ) are elected to office to represent (there is that word again) their constituents. So your premise that the above mentioned representatives are sent to DC to use "their" judgement is ludicrous. They are sent to DC to represent not do whatever they feel like. Perhaps you would rather it called a constitutional republic? Whatever the case the states have every right to tell the federal government to go pound sand. I can't seem to find the clause in the constitution where it explicitly says health care is a right. furthermore, where did the federal government get the power to tax/fine you for inactivity?
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avxo

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Is that what you learned in "civics class"?  

Here is what I learned in the real world.  In our democracy, people run for public office pledging to represent the will of the people.  That's why elected representatives continually meet with constituents, to get the constituents' opinions.  That's why elected representatives have staff members who are continually meeting with members of the public and trying to address concerns raised by the public.  Any good elected representative pays attention to what his or her community is talking about and what his or her community wants.  That's why opinion polls, although not determinative, are far from "irrelevant."  

But they might not teach you that in "civics class."  

Nowhere in the Constitution is any of the above stipulated. Indeed, you won't find a single reference that suggests that members are bound to consult with their constituents or do anything other than vote their conscience. Of course, it's likely that if they don't (at least partially) reflect their constituents' views and opinions to some degree they won't win reelection, but that's not the same thing as what you're describing. Neither are the promises they make during the campaign binding in any way, shape or form. Of course, if they don't live up to them, the people will judge them accordingly. Or at least, we hope they will.

The founders' intentions, as reflected in the Federalist papers, are clear. Madison wrote that in our form of government the representatives were "a chosen body of citizens" who, acting as trustees, would use their "wisdom" to "best discern the true interest of their country and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations. Under such a regulation it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the same purpose."

Now, you will forgive me if I take James Madison's word over yours as to the nature of our government and the role that our Founding Fathers envisioned for our Representatives.


Our representatives ( see what I did there ) are elected to office to represent (there is that word again) their constituents. So your premise that the above mentioned representatives are sent to DC to use "their" judgement is ludicrous. They are sent to DC to represent not do whatever they feel like. Perhaps you would rather it called a constitutional republic? Whatever the case the states have every right to tell the federal government to go pound sand. I can't seem to find the clause in the constitution where it explicitly says health care is a right. furthermore, where did the federal government get the power to tax/fine you for inactivity?

As to the question of whether we elect Representstives to use their judgement or to be mere mouthpieces of the public opinion in their district, see the above quote from Madison from The Federalist No. 10. His words carry a lot more weight with me than your silly reply. No offense...

As to your question about the Constitutional authorization, I don't think the government had the constitutional authority to pass the law they did pass, but the Supreme Court disagreed with a rather elaborate ruling. Perhaps I agree with this ruling or perhaps I disagree – either way, that's irrelevant.

Remember, the Supreme Court, the arbiter of whether a law is Constitutional or not, has reached a decision and I respect the Court and the Constitution enough to accept the decision, whether I agree with it or not.

As to whether the States can tell the government to pound sand, it's true that they can in some contexts, although with the increasingly expanding scope of the Interstate Commerce clause those contexts are now few and far between.

Congress passed some legislation, which was challenged and upheld. The legislation is now the law of the land now and is binding on the states since State law cannot preempt Federal law. This is a well-established principle, in place since the early days of our Republic and firmly grounded in our Constitution.

But thanks for playing.

Shockwave

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Nowhere in the Constitution is any of the above stipulated. Indeed, you won't find a single reference that suggests that members are bound to consult with their constituents or do anything other than vote.

Of course, it's likely that if they don't (at least partially) reflect their constituents' views and opinions to some degree they won't win reelection, but that's not the same thing as what you're describing.

Neither are the promises they make during the campaign binding in any way, shape or form. Of course, if they don't live up to their campaigns, the people will judge them accordingly. Or at least, we hope they will.

The founders' intention (reflected in the Federalist papers) where Madison wrote that in a republican form of. Government the representatives were "a chosen body of citizens" who, acting as trustees, would use their "wisdom" to "best discern the true interest of their country and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations. Under such a regulation it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the same purpose."

Now, you will forgive me if I take James Madison's word over yours as to the nature of our government and the role that our Founding Fathers envisioned for our Representatives.


As to the question of whether we elect Representstives to use their judgement or to be mere mouthpieces of the public opinion in their district, see thu above quote from Madison from The Federalist No. 10. His words carry a lot more weight with me than your silly reply.

As to your question about the Constitutional authorization, I don't think the government had the constitutional authority to pass the law they did pass, but the Supreme Court disagree with a rather elaborate ruling. Perhaps I agree with this ruling or perhaps I disagree – either way, that's irrelevant.

Remember, the Supreme Court, the arbiter of whether a law is Constitutional or not, has reached a decision and I respect the Court and the Constitution enough to accept the decision, whether I agree with it or not.

As to whether the States can tell the government to pound sand, it's true that they can in some contexts, although with the increasingly expanding scope of the Interstate Commerce clause those contexts are now few and far between.

Contgress passed some legislation, which was challenged and upheld. The legislation is the law of the land now and is binding on the states since State law cannot preempt Federal law. This is a well-estaished principle, since the early days of our Republic and firmly grounded in our Constitution.

But thanks for playing.
I was waiting for this, because I figured youd post something that I coukd educate myself with.

Very interesting, a.far cry from what the dipshit hippie ass government teacher I had made it out to be.... he taught as others are saying, that thr politicians are mere mouthpieces. .... however, from what ive gathered (and now confirmed by what youve wrote) the founders didnt quite believe mob rule to be fhe wisest course of action.... as weve seen over and over, just because a majority has an opinion doesnt make it a wise course of action... especially a majority that has become as apathetic and ill informed as the American populous. However, I have zero faith in the men and women that seem to be gunning for pubkic office now days.... so im torn.

I guess my attitude.... is that its time for the tree of liberty to be refreshed with the yadda yadda......

 /trendy douchey quote

avxo

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I was waiting for this, because I figured youd post something that I coukd educate myself with.

Very interesting, a.far cry from what the dipshit hippie ass government teacher I had made it out to be.... he taught as others are saying, that thr politicians are mere mouthpieces. .... however, from what ive gathered (and now confirmed by what youve wrote) the founders didnt quite believe mob rule to be fhe wisest course of action.... as weve seen over and over, just because a majority has an opinion doesnt make it a wise course of action... especially a majority that has become as apathetic and ill informed as the American populous. However, I have zero faith in the men and women that seem to be gunning for pubkic office now days.... so im torn.

I guess my attitude.... is that its time for the tree of liberty to be refreshed with the yadda yadda......

 /trendy douchey quote

I agree - our elected officials are letting us down and we, in turn, are letting our country down in electing them...

Our first President not only refused (repeatedly) the offer to be appointed King, but had to be convinced to accept the responsibility of the Office and he did so reluctantly. And, in a measure of his greatness, he refuse to seek the Office more than twice, choosing instead to move on, set an example and to avoid turning the Presidential election into a de facto rubber stamp.

Would some of the "Imperial Presidents" we've seen in our lifetime do the same? I doubt it.

It's a pity that we no longer have great men like that anymore. Instead we're ruled over by the likes of Obama (or Bush), Harry Reid (from my State of Nevada... sorry!), Nancy Pelosi, Mitch McConnell and John Boehner. To say nothing of people like Ted Cruz, Dennis Kucinich, Michelle Bachmann, Rick Santorum and other such scum...

And to be clear, this isn't a gripe I have with a party. It's a gripe I have with the candidates from both sides and with both parties. They're two sides of the same fucked up coin as far as I'm concerned.

Dos Equis

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Nowhere in the Constitution is any of the above stipulated. Indeed, you won't find a single reference that suggests that members are bound to consult with their constituents or do anything other than vote their conscience. Of course, it's likely that if they don't (at least partially) reflect their constituents' views and opinions to some degree they won't win reelection, but that's not the same thing as what you're describing. Neither are the promises they make during the campaign binding in any way, shape or form. Of course, if they don't live up to them, the people will judge them accordingly. Or at least, we hope they will.

The founders' intentions, as reflected in the Federalist papers, are clear. Madison wrote that in our form of government the representatives were "a chosen body of citizens" who, acting as trustees, would use their "wisdom" to "best discern the true interest of their country and whose patriotism and love of justice will be least likely to sacrifice it to temporary or partial considerations. Under such a regulation it may well happen that the public voice, pronounced by the representatives of the people, will be more consonant to the public good than if pronounced by the people themselves, convened for the same purpose."

Now, you will forgive me if I take James Madison's word over yours as to the nature of our government and the role that our Founding Fathers envisioned for our Representatives.


Well I could pull out my school books and quote Madison, Jefferson et. al, but I'm talking about what happens outside of the classroom.  And I'm not trying to get you to take my word for anything.  Don't really care. 

There is nothing in the Constitution that says anything about polls, meeting with constituents, responding to constituents' letters, making Congressional inquiries in response to constituent complaints, etc.  But every good representative knows that is a part of his or her job.  You will not find any reference in the Constitution to holding town hall meetings.  But representatives hold them, in part to "best discern the true interest of their country."  They want to know what the people are concerned about.  That's why they pay attention to opinion polls and why polls are not irrelevant. 

avxo

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Well I could pull out my school books and quote Madison, Jefferson et. al, but I'm talking about what happens outside of the classroom.  And I'm not trying to get you to take my word for anything.  Don't really care.  

There is nothing in the Constitution that says anything about polls, meeting with constituents, responding to constituents' letters, making Congressional inquiries in response to constituent complaints, etc.  But every good representative knows that is a part of his or her job.  You will not find any reference in the Constitution to holding town hall meetings.  But representatives hold them, in part to "best discern the true interest of their country."  They want to know what the people are concerned about.  That's why they pay attention to opinion polls and why polls are not irrelevant.  

No doubt, listening to your constituents is important. But, ultimately, we choose people whose judgement we trust and then let them exercise that judgement on our behalf. We do not live in a direct democracy nor do we live in a direct democracy by proxy.

Now, I didn't say that opinion polls are meaningless. I said they are irrelevant and I chose my words carefully. A Senator or Representative can use any method they want to decide how to vote. He can ignore everyone else and decide what to do; he can roll the dice; he can ask a random constituent or constituents their opinion and vote based on that; he can even ask a psychic medium. But a Representative that votes based on opinion polls is pretty worthless.

The idea behind choosing Representatives, or course, was to choose the best among us, to study these issues carefully use their own head to decide, taking into account the sensibilities of their constituency, the needs of his State and the country and the Constitution they swore to uphold and cast a vote.

The people then get to evaluate those they picked and judge whether their choice was right or not and whether the Representative ought to continue representing them or not using whatever criteria they want.

Ask yourself one question: would you really want Congressmen and women to be mere mouthpieces? The American populace is largely clueless about the issues. In an on-street interview, most of those who said they were opposed to Obamacare said they supported the Affordable Care Act... these are people who don't know what Obamacare is; they only know they've been told is bad or someone they know thinks it's bad and form an opinion based on everything except the facts. Are these the people that you want your Representative to function as a mouthpiece for?

The beauty of choosing someone to represent you is that you can form an opinion on that person without necessarily knowing or understanding any of the issues that person is likely to have to face, and by choosing that person you can continue to be largely oblivious about the details.

And that is exactly why opinion polls matter little. Because most people are happily oblivious.

Lest this be misunderstood: I am not supportive of Obamacare; I find it to be a huge overreach, badly thought out, poorly implemented and ill-advised. It ought to be repealed and we should have a serious debate about fixing what's wrong with our healthcare system.

What I challenge is silly meaningless but symbolic actions, passed by the South Carolina House of Representatives and the people who think that we live in a democracy where a simple majority can choose to do anything and everything, and that we should be rules by Gallup polls.

Dos Equis

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No doubt, listening to your constituents is important. But, ultimately, we choose people whose judgement we trust and then let them exercise that judgement on our behalf. We do not live in a direct democracy nor do we live in a direct democracy by proxy.

Now, I didn't say that opinion polls are meaningless. I said they are irrelevant and I chose my words carefully. A Senator or Representative can use any method they want to decide how to vote. He can ignore everyone else and decide what to do; he can roll the dice; he can ask a random constituent or constituents their opinion and vote based on that; he can even ask a psychic medium. But a Representative that votes based on opinion polls is pretty worthless.

The idea behind choosing Representatives, or course, was to choose the best among us, to study these issues carefully use their own head to decide, taking into account the sensibilities of their constituency, the needs of his State and the country and the Constitution they swore to uphold and cast a vote.

The people then get to evaluate those they picked and judge whether their choice was right or not and whether the Representative ought to continue representing them or not using whatever criteria they want.

Ask yourself one question: would you really want Congressmen and women to be mere mouthpieces? The American populace is largely clueless about the issues. In an on-street interview, most of those who said they were opposed to Obamacare said they supported the Affordable Care Act... these are people who don't know what Obamacare is; they only know they've been told is bad or someone they know thinks it's bad and form an opinion based on everything except the facts. Are these the people that you want your Representative to function as a mouthpiece for?

The beauty of choosing someone to represent you is that you can form an opinion on that person without necessarily knowing or understanding any of the issues that person is likely to have to face, and by choosing that person you can continue to be largely oblivious about the details.

And that is exactly why opinion polls matter little. Because most people are happily oblivious.

Lest this be misunderstood: I am not supportive of Obamacare; I find it to be a huge overreach, badly thought out, poorly implemented and ill-advised. It ought to be repealed and we should have a serious debate about fixing what's wrong with our healthcare system.

What I challenge is silly meaningless but symbolic actions, passed by the South Carolina House of Representatives and the people who think that we live in a democracy where a simple majority can choose to do anything and everything, and that we should be rules by Gallup polls.

“Meaningless” and “irrelevant” in this context mean the same thing.  

The only thing I said is polls are not irrelevant.  I did not say, and am not suggesting, that polls dictate policy.  I actually said the exact opposite.  They should not drive public policy.  But they do matter.  

No I don’t want my representatives to simply be mouthpieces, but I do want them to act in the best interests of my community.  One of the ways they can do that is by knowing what is happening in their community and the issues/concerns in that community.  The intent in electing representatives was never to have them be an island, making decisions with no regard for what the people want (or don’t want).