The Michael Jordan of baseball

[Marty Champions]

well alls thats left to do is to get ken grifffy jr to post on getbig regularly

[The Abdominal Snoman]

Deion was way faster.  He could scoot. 

Deion was extremely fast...But many believe Bo was even faster. Bo Jackson has the fastest 40m dash combine time of all time. When he ran a 4.12, people stated that there had to be something wrong with the clock...Then Bo ran a 4.18 a week later under a different testing system...


Wiki

In 1986, Auburn's Bo Jackson ran the fastest 40-yard dash at an NFL combine, with a reported time of 4.12. The time was scrutinized, but a time of 4.18 run by Jackson within the same week added some support to the legitimacy of the times.[8][9] Deion Sanders ran a 4.27-second 40-yard dash in 1989

[The Showstoppa]

Deion was extremely fast...But many believe Bo was even faster. Bo Jackson has the fastest 40m dash combine time of all time. When he ran a 4.12, people stated that there had to be something wrong with the clock...Then Bo ran a 4.18 a week later under a different testing system...


Wiki

In 1986, Auburn's Bo Jackson ran the fastest 40-yard dash at an NFL combine, with a reported time of 4.12. The time was scrutinized, but a time of 4.18 run by Jackson within the same week added some support to the legitimacy of the times.[8][9] Deion Sanders ran a 4.27-second 40-yard dash in 1989

Watched th both play in college, NFL and MLB.  Yes I am old.  And I think Deion was faster. Really dont care about combine times. Didnt they time Orlando Pace at 4.5?   His fat ass couldnt outrun me. 

[The Abdominal Snoman]

Watched th both play in college, NFL and MLB.  Yes I am old.  And I think Deion was faster. Really dont care about combine times. Didnt they time Orlando Pace at 4.5?   His fat ass couldnt outrun me.  

Everyone that played baseball with Bo said he's the fastest they ever seen. Bo may not appeared faster than Deion because he was over 40 pounds heavier than Deion. These guys were also timed all the time from "out of the box" to first base. Stealing 2nd base and 1st to 3rd. Everyone says they never seen anyone beat Bo's times.

[The Abdominal Snoman]

Here's a voice/video of Deion talking about how he caught up to Bo Jackson because of how fast Deion was...Only problem is the video clearly shows that Deion always had the angle on Bo. It wasn't like he caught him from behind. But Deion likes to think otherwise

[The Showstoppa]

Everyone that played baseball with Bo said he's the fastest they ever seen. Bo may not appeared faster than Deion because he was over 40 pounds heavier than Deion. These guys were also timed all the time from "out of the box" to first base. Stealing 2nd base and 1st to 3rd. Everyone says they never seen anyone beat Bo's times.

Not doubting Bo was fast.  I just think Deion was  faster. 

[Hulkotron]

Griffey reportedly was very lazy, never worked out much.  A true natural talent.

[The Showstoppa]

Griffey reportedly was very lazy, never worked out much.  A true natural talent.

Probably why he was on the DL so much. 

[flinstones1]

Everyone that played baseball with Bo said he's the fastest they ever seen. Bo may not appeared faster than Deion because he was over 40 pounds heavier than Deion. These guys were also timed all the time from "out of the box" to first base. Stealing 2nd base and 1st to 3rd. Everyone says they never seen anyone beat Bo's times.

exactly, deion was a skinny little shit. Bo  was the strongest fastest guy in the game ....I  just don't people just cant grasp how nuts it is for a 225 lb guy to  be that explosive.

[The Showstoppa]

exactly, deion was a skinny little shit. Bo  was the strongest fastest guy in the game ....I  just don't people just cant grasp how nuts it is for a 225 lb guy to  be that explosive.

Who said he wasnt fast or strong?   But as much as Deion was called a pussy I remember your loverboy Bo pulling himself from a game vs Tenn with a "thigh bruise."   

[snx]

I'm going to love arguing with Ape on this one...LOL!

In my opinion, and most baseball writers out there, Griffey is not the MJ of baseball. After all, would anyone here say that there were 55 basketball players better than MJ? Probably not. But according to modern baseball statistics, there were 55 baseball players who single handedly helped their teams win more games than Griffey. And the ability of one player to contribute to wins is what really measures the worth of any player in any sport. That's over their respective careers. Now, some might argue that many of those players enjoyed long careers, but then again, Griffey played well past his prime as well, milking his days with the Reds long after he was an average hitting outfielder. We can all speculate what might have been, had he not gotten hurt. Maybe he would have hit 700 homeruns. We can say the same about Pujols and his fascitis.

So let's try to take Ken's best season - 1996 - and compare it to Trout's best year. In that year, Ken had a 9.6 WAR value. Trout was 10.9.

Ken only had two years where his WAR stacked up over 9. Trout's done it his first two years. His first two years in the league have been better than any two Griffey years combined. So that's saying something about Trout, and about how decidedly "un-MJ" Griffey really was.

Some guys don't see the merit in WAR though. Understandable. What about adjusted OPS? Take Griffey's two best years, and they still don't match what Trout has done in his first two years.

Why the love for Trout? Far from it. I think Trout is great, but he's not the greatest. I'm simply using him as a yardstick with which to compare Griffey. We wouldn't run around saying Trout's years are the greatest ever. Nor should we say the same about Griffey. Now, Griffey did produce at a high level for a long time, and because of that, were I voting, he'd be a first ballot HOF'er on my list - no questions asked. But then, I would have also voted for Palmeiro and Bonds.

Griffey was great. But he was far from being the greatest ever, or even the greatest of his generation.

Oh, and if Griffey was so fast, how did he get caught stealing over 70 times on 180+ steals? Trout's been caught only just over 10% of the time. Maybe Griffey liked getting caught? Maybe the catchers in Griffeys day had better arms?  Or maybe he's never been as fast as Trout.

[Grape Ape]

I'm going to love arguing with Ape on this one...LOL!

Sorry, but I pretty much agree with all of it.    - I'm one of the ones who thought Trout should have won MVP last year.

My only issue is with the defensive metrics part of WAR.   It's the best we have, but I find in more flawed than most stats (all are flawed in a way).  I tend to use it directionally rather than an absolute number.

[snx]

Sorry, but I pretty much agree with all of it.    - I'm one of the ones who thought Trout should have won MVP last year.

My only issue is with the defensive metrics part of WAR.   It's the best we have, but I find in more flawed than most stats (all are flawed in a way).  I tend to use it directionally rather than an absolute number.

Damn it - now we'll have to find something else baseball related to argue about! LOL!

I agree - the defensive metrics in WAR aren't the best. But then again, measuring defensive cababilities hasn't yet caught up to how we can quantify the impact of offense or pitching on runs. We still love scoring errors...god knows why.

I could play center field for the yankees and never make an error. By that metric, I'd be the greatest center fielder of all time. LOL...like measuring BA or RBIs.

[flinstones1]

I'm going to love arguing with Ape on this one...LOL!

In my opinion, and most baseball writers out there, Griffey is not the MJ of baseball. After all, would anyone here say that there were 55 basketball players better than MJ? Probably not. But according to modern baseball statistics, there were 55 baseball players who single handedly helped their teams win more games than Griffey. And the ability of one player to contribute to wins is what really measures the worth of any player in any sport. That's over their respective careers. Now, some might argue that many of those players enjoyed long careers, but then again, Griffey played well past his prime as well, milking his days with the Reds long after he was an average hitting outfielder. We can all speculate what might have been, had he not gotten hurt. Maybe he would have hit 700 homeruns. We can say the same about Pujols and his fascitis.

So let's try to take Ken's best season - 1996 - and compare it to Trout's best year. In that year, Ken had a 9.6 WAR value. Trout was 10.9.

Ken only had two years where his WAR stacked up over 9. Trout's done it his first two years. His first two years in the league have been better than any two Griffey years combined. So that's saying something about Trout, and about how decidedly "un-MJ" Griffey really was.

Some guys don't see the merit in WAR though. Understandable. What about adjusted OPS? Take Griffey's two best years, and they still don't match what Trout has done in his first two years.

Why the love for Trout? Far from it. I think Trout is great, but he's not the greatest. I'm simply using him as a yardstick with which to compare Griffey. We wouldn't run around saying Trout's years are the greatest ever. Nor should we say the same about Griffey. Now, Griffey did produce at a high level for a long time, and because of that, were I voting, he'd be a first ballot HOF'er on my list - no questions asked. But then, I would have also voted for Palmeiro and Bonds.

Griffey was great. But he was far from being the greatest ever, or even the greatest of his generation.

Oh, and if Griffey was so fast, how did he get caught stealing over 70 times on 180+ steals? Trout's been caught only just over 10% of the time. Maybe Griffey liked getting caught? Maybe the catchers in Griffeys day had better arms?  Or maybe he's never been as fast as Trout.

Dude I will say this again. Ken Griffey was THE FASTEST GUY IN THE GAME AT ONE TIME. Remember all you and I see are stats on a paper, I'm repeating what I have been told by guys who played the game at the highest level in the 1980's and 1990's. the common theme among ALL of them is - there is a prime griffey and everyone else.

 Mike Trout was a lot more aggressive and  daring than Griffey and like someone else said, Griffey was lazy. There are guys in the mlb who steal a lot of bases and really aren't that fast...and vice verse.   Jose Conseco in his prime  COULD FLY.....he faster than Mike Trout, and would routinely run the 60 in 6.4 seconds. at 6'4!  He was also bigger and stronger, a better athlete than mike...but Mike is obviously doing some crazy shit.  obviously jose used drugs but that is besides the point.

probably a first ballet hall of famer? cmon brother the guy was voted on the all century team for fuck sake.

[The Ugly]

Why is it that lefties always have the prettiest swings?

[Hulkotron]

If Griffey had an unlimited supply of Trenbalonie ACE, Humalog, and legit Kigs with the green top, would he have hit 763?

[The Ugly]

If Griffey had an unlimited supply of Trenbalonie ACE, Humalog, and legit Kigs with the green top, would he have hit 763?

Hell, if he'd just stayed healthy he probably would have beat Aaron's record.

[Hulkotron]

Recent events have kind of put Bonds' record in perspective for me. He was juiced to the gills but so are Arod and Pujols and they aren't going to come near it.

[flinstones1]

Why is it that lefties always have the prettiest swings?

more of a  natural motion as you sub consciously (body wants to) start moving towards first base anyways. I agree though, righties look choppy. A-rod's  has a sweet swing for a right... .

prettiest swing in the game right now? id go with robinson cano.

[MichaelScottDM]

Why is it that lefties always have the prettiest swings?

You can say that again. Will Clark, Ken Griffey Jr, and Barry Bonds all in my opinion have 3 of the greatest swings of the last 40 years

[Mr Nobody]

[Grape Ape]

Dude I will say this again. Ken Griffey was THE FASTEST GUY IN THE GAME AT ONE TIME. Remember all you and I see are stats on a paper, I'm repeating what I have been told by guys who played the game at the highest level in the 1980's and 1990's. the common theme among ALL of them is - there is a prime griffey and everyone else.

 Mike Trout was a lot more aggressive and  daring than Griffey and like someone else said, Griffey was lazy. There are guys in the mlb who steal a lot of bases and really aren't that fast...and vice verse.   Jose Conseco in his prime  COULD FLY.....he faster than Mike Trout, and would routinely run the 60 in 6.4 seconds. at 6'4!  He was also bigger and stronger, a better athlete than mike...but Mike is obviously doing some crazy shit.  obviously jose used drugs but that is besides the point.

probably a first ballet hall of famer? cmon brother the guy was voted on the all century team for fuck sake.

Nobody's aruging KGJ isn't going to the HoF easily or that he wasn't fast.  I'll say it again - he was AWESOME.   Trout is 6'2"/230 and one of the fastest players in the game.  

Remember, you originally said he wasn't fast:

Trout may be the fastest player in the game, though teammate Peter Bourjos could give him a run for his money in a 60-yard dash, Hunter said. In a 40, no one touches Trout, who has football speed. "He digs into the Earth,'' Hunter said.

Could Griffey have been a tick faster?  Who cares - it didn't translate to the diamond, which is all that matters.

But stop saying you know some guys who played MLB.  So do I.  The point is, they were not measuring every player in MLB with a stopwatch at all times.  They were not seeing every ball hit in every game of the year.  They don't record every AB ever and track where the ball was hit.....The point is, pro athletes themselves have shown many times to be horrible judges of their own sport.  I'm not saying it's your guys, but I hope you get the point.

[Grape Ape]

Damn it - now we'll have to find something else baseball related to argue about! LOL!

I agree - the defensive metrics in WAR aren't the best. But then again, measuring defensive cababilities hasn't yet caught up to how we can quantify the impact of offense or pitching on runs. We still love scoring errors...god knows why.

I could play center field for the yankees and never make an error. By that metric, I'd be the greatest center fielder of all time. LOL...like measuring BA or RBIs.

Spot on - I don't think we'll be arguing much at all, unless we bring up foam rolling again....

[snx]

Dude I will say this again. Ken Griffey was THE FASTEST GUY IN THE GAME AT ONE TIME. Remember all you and I see are stats on a paper, I'm repeating what I have been told by guys who played the game at the highest level in the 1980's and 1990's. the common theme among ALL of them is - there is a prime griffey and everyone else.

 Mike Trout was a lot more aggressive and  daring than Griffey and like someone else said, Griffey was lazy. There are guys in the mlb who steal a lot of bases and really aren't that fast...and vice verse.   Jose Conseco in his prime  COULD FLY.....he faster than Mike Trout, and would routinely run the 60 in 6.4 seconds. at 6'4!  He was also bigger and stronger, a better athlete than mike...but Mike is obviously doing some crazy shit.  obviously jose used drugs but that is besides the point.

probably a first ballet hall of famer? cmon brother the guy was voted on the all century team for fuck sake.

I said he'd be an easy first ballot HOF'er...not probably. Definitely. So no misunderstanding there.

And at the end of the day, we have the conjecture of the old boys (guys you cite) versus what statistics and film bear out on him. Classic "Moneyball" discussion here. Do we value the "intangibles" or do we value what we can measure? It's a business (playing baseball), so if I were a GM, I'd value what I could measure and leave the "intangibles" to the old school scouts and fans.

Again - Griffey was one of the greatest of his generation. I believe in his prime he was the best 5-tool player at center field. But he's not one of the top 5 greatest players to ever play the game. For non-pitchers, that would be Ruth, Bonds, Gherig, Williams and Foxx, in my opinion (special place in my heart for Hornsby...the Rajah!). In that order.

[snx]

Spot on - I don't think we'll be arguing much at all, unless we bring up foam rolling again....

I'll foam roll more if you admit Foxx is the greatest right-handed hitter of all time! LOL!