The Michael Jordan of baseball

[Grape Ape]

I'll foam roll more if you admit Foxx is the greatest right-handed hitter of all time! LOL!

I would need to do my homework there!   Manny is in my head for some reason.......

[Hulkotron]

I have posted about this before and while I won't pretend to know who is the best overall player ever, Ted Williams is easily the best hitter of all time in my opinion.

[Grape Ape]

I have posted about this before and while I won't pretend to know who is the best overall player ever, Ted Williams is easily the best hitter of all time in my opinion.

It's not a bad choice, especially when you consider how insane his numbers would be if he didn't have to go to the military.

[Hulkotron]

It's not a bad choice, especially when you consider how insane his numbers would be if he didn't have to go to the military.

Yes exactly.

He was also by all reports a very slow runner (i.e. he wasn't getting hits by beating out grounders basically ever).

[Grape Ape]

Yes exactly.

He was also by all reports a very slow runner (i.e. he wasn't getting hits by beating out grounders basically ever).

My only problem with that era is that most of the players' offseasons consisted of building skyscrapers and waiting in line for soup in the winter.  The overall talent pool wasn't as great.  Plus, the pitcher usually pitched the whole game, so hitters got to face pitchers who were bad/off 4-5 times instead of specialist relievers.

[Voice of Doom]

the MJ of baseball was Babe Ruth.  Could pitch and hit (no homo).  Held all the records for decades.

[snx]

My only problem with that era is that most of the players' offseasons consisted of building skyscrapers and waiting in line for soup in the winter.  The overall talent pool wasn't as great.  Plus, the pitcher usually pitched the whole game, so hitters got to face pitchers who were bad/off 4-5 times instead of specialist relievers.

Right. And they did re-make Fenway to make it very, very friendly to Williams. He's still a top 5 guy for me all-time.

In many ways, reminds of Hank Greenberg. Had he not done military service and interrupted his amazing career, I wonder what would have happened...still, it's a far greater thing to be a soldier than a baseball player.

[Mr Nobody]

He never lifted.

[The Abdominal Snoman]

The game will never see another .400 hitter because the defense got a whole lot better and faster...The routine plays players make today would be considered unbelievable back when Ted Williams played the game. Another thing is that batters are going up against a lot more taller pitchers(6'4 and up). Which means the balls are coming at different angles and harder(on average) then Ted Williams went up against. Back in the old days being a 6'4 pitcher was more of an oddity and although they may have been hard throwing, they didn't have the stamina to pitch many innings so team didn't use them much. These days, being tall is becoming the norm. The ball gets on the batter quicker than a shorter player and its harder to pick up the ball...As great as Williams was, he wouldn't have sniffed anything over .350 imop.

[snx]

The game will never see another .400 hitter because the defense got a whole lot better and faster...The routine plays players make today would be considered unbelievable back when Ted Williams played the game. Another thing is that batters are going up against a lot more taller pitchers(6'4 and up). Which means the balls are coming at different angles and harder(on average) then Ted Williams went up against. Back in the old days being a 6'4 pitcher was more of an oddity and although they may have been hard throwing, they didn't have the stamina to pitch many innings so team didn't use them much. These days, being tall is becoming the norm. The ball gets on the batter quicker than a shorter player and its harder to pick up the ball...As great as Williams was, he wouldn't have sniffed anything over .350 imop.

See...I don't know about not getting over.350.

In his best years, I think he would have hit .370 to .380 against today's major league pitching. Certainly not .400, for all of the reasons you mentioned above, and more.

It puts Bonds year where he hit .370 and walked 200 times all the more up there in rarified air, doesn't it? I still marvel at how great he was that year. Same for 2004. The guy hit 45 HR's, in only 373 at bats. Let's factor back in the walks he took that weren't intentional, he still only had 485 real at-bats where maybe he saw a pitch he could hit. I don't know if any other batter, in any other year, did so much with so few pitches to hit. Literally, no one would throw him anything...there was so much film on him and so much fear. Only idiots threw to him, or they made a mistake. And he literally capitalized on just about every mistake a hitter could ever have been expected to. Steroids don't make you that great. Greatness makes you that great. It will be another 50 years or so before we see another hitter that dominant. Without the taint, he would go down as the modern day Babe Ruth. Because only Ruth was better.

[Grape Ape]

See...I don't know about not getting over.350.

In his best years, I think he would have hit .370 to .380 against today's major league pitching. Certainly not .400, for all of the reasons you mentioned above, and more.

It puts Bonds year where he hit .370 and walked 200 times all the more up there in rarified air, doesn't it? I still marvel at how great he was that year. Same for 2004. The guy hit 45 HR's, in only 373 at bats. Let's factor back in the walks he took that weren't intentional, he still only had 485 real at-bats where maybe he saw a pitch he could hit. I don't know if any other batter, in any other year, did so much with so few pitches to hit. Literally, no one would throw him anything...there was so much film on him and so much fear. Only idiots threw to him, or they made a mistake. And he literally capitalized on just about every mistake a hitter could ever have been expected to. Steroids don't make you that great. Greatness makes you that great. It will be another 50 years or so before we see another hitter that dominant. Without the taint, he would go down as the modern day Babe Ruth. Because only Ruth was better.

Fantastic post which I will steal next time I have this discussion.  Could not agree more.

[El Diablo Blanco]

The game will never see another .400 hitter because the defense got a whole lot better and faster...The routine plays players make today would be considered unbelievable back when Ted Williams played the game. Another thing is that batters are going up against a lot more taller pitchers(6'4 and up). Which means the balls are coming at different angles and harder(on average) then Ted Williams went up against. Back in the old days being a 6'4 pitcher was more of an oddity and although they may have been hard throwing, they didn't have the stamina to pitch many innings so team didn't use them much. These days, being tall is becoming the norm. The ball gets on the batter quicker than a shorter player and its harder to pick up the ball...As great as Williams was, he wouldn't have sniffed anything over .350 imop.

Please.  In the strike shortened year of 96 Larry Walker was on fire and was close to 400 and a little over for early part of the season.  He was having an amazing season then it just ended.

[Grape Ape]

Please.  In the strike shortened year of 96 Larry Walker was on fire and was close to 400 and a little over for early part of the season.  He was having an amazing season then it just ended.

Strike was in '94 and he batted .322

You might be thinking of Gwynn.

[funk51]

the MJ of baseball was Babe Ruth.  Could pitch and hit (no homo).  Held all the records for decades.

ahead of his time for sure. he was a mutant. he was greater than mj.

[The Ugly]

ahead of his time for sure. he was a mutant. he was greater than mj.

Babe's stats are simply retarded.

[funk51]

I'll foam roll more if you admit Foxx is the greatest right-handed hitter of all time! LOL!

he burnt out at 32 years of age drinking and debauchery did him in too early.

[Hulkotron]

Tony Gwynn I believe also hit near .400 a few times and he was a fat fuck.

Bonds in 2004 was ridiculous.  He put up Little League numbers against the best in the world who were all on an all-you-can-eat PED buffet too.

[HockeyFightFan]

Please.  In the strike shortened year of 96 Larry Walker was on fire and was close to 400 and a little over for early part of the season.  He was having an amazing season then it just ended.

Going by memory but Tony Gwynn, George Brett and Rod Carew all carried close to a .400 average into the last week(s) of a season. Closest I remember to someone coming to .400 in the last few decades.

[Grape Ape]

Going by memory but Tony Gwynn, George Brett and Rod Carew all carried close to a .400 average into the last week(s) of a season. Closest I remember to someone coming to .400 in the last few decades.

Your memory is really good.

Gwynn's was the strike year.  Brett was mid Sept, I believe.......not sure how long Carew stayed there.

[funk51]

Your memory is really good.

Gwynn's was the strike year.  Brett was mid Sept, I believe.......not sure how long Carew stayed there.

gynn the closest .394, brett 390. carew .388. and before that mr williams .388 in 1957 the year the mick hit .363 and finished 2 nd in batting average.

[HockeyFightFan]

Your memory is really good.

Gwynn's was the strike year.  Brett was mid Sept, I believe.......not sure how long Carew stayed there.

I''m not sure either. Seemed like Carew stayed north of .350 late into the season a number of times. Seemed like that guy was a batting title lock for about a decade.

[Mr Nobody]

Lakers.

[Hulkotron]

Those three are the only three since Williams retired (1960) to hit above .380 in a season

1941 Ted Williams 185/456 = .406 (played in 143 games)
1977 Rod Carew 239/616 = .388 (played in 155 games)
1980 George Brett 175/449 = .390 (played in 117 games)
1994 Tony Gwynn 165/419 = .394 (played in 110 games)

Williams was a badass

Seventy years ago Wednesday, Sept. 28, 1941, Ted Williams confronted a similar situation, only much more historic in scope. The Splendid Splinter, a 23-year-old in his third year with the Boston Red Sox, entered the final two games of the regular season, a doubleheader, with a .3996 average. If he sat it out the rest of the way, as his manager Joe Cronin suggested, they would round his average off to .400.

Williams decided to play, saying, "If I can't hit .400 all the way, I don't deserve it."

Williams went six for eight, including a home run and a double. He ended up with a .406 average.

[snx]

Please.  In the strike shortened year of 96 Larry Walker was on fire and was close to 400 and a little over for early part of the season.  He was having an amazing season then it just ended.

Walker's OPS+ isn't anywhere near comparable to Williams. Look at where Walker played. Compare his home and away numbers.

Walker was a great player in his generation. But he, more than most, benefitted greatly from the Coors field effect.

Let's put it into context: Walker's best adjusted OPS was 178. He never did better. Teddy Ballgame has an adjusted OPS over 200 an amazing 9 times in his career. In fact, Walker has had only two seasons that were BETTER than Williams' WORST season, when looking at adjusted OPS.

What is adjusted OPS? Here's an easy way to think about it. If you see an OPS+ of 180, it tells you that the player is likely to produce 80% more runs than the average player in the league (runs being the most important thing in baseball). So, an adjusted OPS of 200 means you'll produce 100% more runs than the average guy in a uniform.

Walker, in his best season, produced 78% more runs than the average guy. In his best year, Williams produced 135% more runs (the year he hit .400). So, if Walker were truly sniffing .400, how could his adjusted OPS have been so off-the-mark from Williams? The reason...he was never really in contention. He wasn't hitting well enough on the road to really be a .400 factor. He was a Coors field anomaly.

So Walker was never anywhere near as good, for as long, as Williams. So Walker, statistically speaking, never had a legit shot at .400. He sniffed it hitting .370, but that's with Coors field.

Walker, however, was a far better fielder than Williams could have ever hoped to be. Walker had a friggin cannon.

[snx]

he burnt out at 32 years of age drinking and debauchery did him in too early.

The way a man SHOULD do it. LOL.