Author Topic: Question for God believers  (Read 33511 times)

Necrosis

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #200 on: December 03, 2013, 03:16:52 PM »
I doubt you are really looking for the truth, but I'll answer your question anyways in case I'm wrong, or perhaps others would like to know. 

Three things are required for the universe to exist:  time, space, and matter.

If God created the universe, which means he created time, space, and matter, then he must exist outside of time, space, and matter.  You can't create something new if you are already bound by the thing you are creating. 

You know the word "universe" means "a single spoken sentence."  God created this entire place in a single spoken sentence in Genesis 1:1

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
                            (time)                          (space)          (matter)

You asshole, Universe does not mean "a single spoken sentence" as is known today, it;s all that exists by definition.

thus the postulation that god existed outside the universe is like saying what was before the big bang, it's nonsensical.

Also, isn't heaven in christianity a place, where people live? clearly this is not space, I find your interpretation odd.


Radical Plato

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #201 on: December 03, 2013, 03:26:12 PM »
where did the energy that was in this singularity come from? if you do not know then you do not know the origins of space time and matter, all you did here is convert the energy to a singularity and claimed this is its scientific origins when reality is you do not know where the energy contained in the singularity came from, which is why you are stupid for arguing with me for 2 pages when at the end you just end up with the conclusion I came up with and that is no one knows.

I am unsure why you seem so enraged by the bigbang theory, It's like you think that if science can't answer your ridiculous questions then that automatically means GOD did it.  It's called the God of the gaps fallacy .  Religious Nutters assume that if science can't answer there most pressing concerns then that is evidence for GOD, an absurd proposition at best. It is simply a variant of the 'argument from ignorance fallacy'.

It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there is insufficient investigation and therefore insufficient information to prove the proposition satisfactorily to be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four, (1) true, (2) false, (3) unknown between true or false, and being unknowable (among the first three). In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used to shift the burden of proof.

In other words you realise the impossibility of providing evidence for GOD, so you shift the burden to others and say disprove it, and we end up back at the flying spaghetti monster again.  I claim flying spaghetti monster exists, you can't disprove it, and yet a believer in GOD would consider this proposition absurd even though it is the same proposition he offers when claiming GOD exists.  

Your argument is the equivalent of someone from a time where everyone believed the world was flat because when you went to the beach you could see a horizon that looked like an edge and that if someone was to swim in that direction they would be sure to fall off.  At that time, due to their being insufficient investigation into the matter, that argument would have sufficed to appeal to other flat world believers.  Just because a matter has not recieved enough investigation to uncover the truth of the matter, doesn't mean that you can fill the gap with whatever story you like and call it truth.  

It's like watching a magic act and remaining ignorant of how the magician saws a woman in half and telling yourself an act of magic just happened or he did indeed saw a woman in half.  Some people when the truth is withheld from them can't stand the not knowing, so they make up stories to appease themselves and make sense of the event, never mind that what they tell themselves is in all probability false. The limits of one's understanding or certainty do not change what is true.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #202 on: December 03, 2013, 03:30:55 PM »
picture the universe as you know it. the planets, the stars etc. that's your life. each planet or star in your universe represents an event you either have or have not visited yet. there is no 'time'. the past the present and the future have already happened and are happening now. the only thing that exists is this exact moment. our reality is a two dimensional construct. all that you know for certain is what you can sense with your 5 senses at this exact moment. if I look up for where I'm sitting I see a wall. behind that wall is nothing. my reality tells me it's a kitchen behind that wall since my memory tells me so. but is it really there? until I get up and walk into it it simply does not exist until that point in time.

do I create this reality then? no. I don't create this reality. there are unspeakably evils in the this world that I cannot comprehend. technology I cannot comprehend. if so, then who's reality is this? I am living the reality of a higher being who has created all this.

your life as you know it is a movie. your role scripted and already laid out for you. yes it is predestined- that is why we have an instilled moral compass and inate ability to know right from wrong. it keeps us on that path. you are a character in this movie who had been given emotion, feelings and intelligence by it's creator so that each person on this 'movie' can react in accordance with each other cast member. but unlike the movies we watch to find out what happens at the end, the creators interest lies in watching how the drama unfolds until the final scene.

the problem with science in trying to explain 'our existence' is that it's people with limited intelligence trying to explain something of a magnitude they could never ever comprehend. we are but pigs wallowing in mud.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #203 on: December 03, 2013, 03:32:41 PM »
picture the universe as you know it. the planets, the stars etc. that's your life. each planet or star in your universe represents an event you either have or have not visited yet. there is no 'time'. the past the present and the future have already happened and are happening now. the only thing that exists is this exact moment. our reality is a two dimensional construct. all that you know for certain is what you can sense with your 5 senses at this exact moment. if I look up for where I'm sitting I see a wall. behind that wall is nothing. my reality tells me it's a kitchen behind that wall since my memory tells me so. but is it really there? until I get up and walk into it it simply does not exist until that point in time.

do I create this reality then? no. I don't create this reality. there are unspeakably evils in the this world that I cannot comprehend. technology I cannot comprehend. if so, then who's reality is this? I am living the reality of a higher being who has created all this.

your life as you know it is a movie. your role scripted and already laid out for you. yes it is predestined- that is why we have an instilled moral compass and inate ability to know right from wrong. it keeps us on that path. you are a character in this movie who had been given emotion, feelings and intelligence by it's creator so that each person on this 'movie' can react in accordance with each other cast member. but unlike the movies we watch to find out what happens at the end, the creators interest lies in watching how the drama unfolds until the final scene.





hey man good to see you back

no one

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #204 on: December 03, 2013, 03:33:54 PM »

hey man good to see you back

cheers dude good to be back. :)
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Radical Plato

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #205 on: December 03, 2013, 03:34:15 PM »
picture the universe as you know it. the planets, the stars etc. that's your life. each planet or star in your universe represents an event you either have or have not visited yet. there is no 'time'. the past the present and the future have already happened and are happening now. the only thing that exists is this exact moment. our reality is a two dimensional construct. all that you know for certain is what you can sense with your 5 senses at this exact moment. if I look up for where I'm sitting I see a wall. behind that wall is nothing. my reality tells me it's a kitchen behind that wall since my memory tells me so. but is it really there? until I get up and walk into it it simply does not exist until that point in time.

do I create this reality then? no. I don't create this reality. there are unspeakably evils in the this world that I cannot comprehend. technology I cannot comprehend. if so, then who's reality is this? I am living the reality of a higher being who has created all this.

your life as you know it is a movie. your role scripted and already laid out for you. yes it is predestined- that is why we have an instilled moral compass and inate ability to know right from wrong. it keeps us on that path. you are a character in this movie who had been given emotion, feelings and intelligence by it's creator so that each person on this 'movie' can react in accordance with each other cast member. but unlike the movies we watch to find out what happens at the end, the creators interest lies in watching how the drama unfolds until the final scene.

the problem with science in 'our existence' is that it's people with limited intelligence trying to explain something of a magnitude they could never ever comprehend. we are but pigs wallowing in mud.

I think we have found a suitable challenger to take the Falcon on as the craziest Getbigger.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #206 on: December 03, 2013, 03:38:39 PM »
I think we have found a suitable challenger to take the Falcon on as the craziest Getbigger.

lol I have a peace my friend that many struggle their whole lives to attain but never reach. your words are meant to insult but instead gives me comfort. what comforts me more is that my journey is not done. I'm still growing and evolving as a person. that fact I felt that I needed to respond to you with this post shows me that.

and therein lies the beauty of life for me.

cheers.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #207 on: December 03, 2013, 03:41:08 PM »
lol I have a peace my friend that many struggle their whole lives to attain but never reach. your words are me are meant to insult but instead gives me comfort. what comforts me more is that my journey is not done. I'm still growing and evolving as a person. that fact I felt that I needed to respond to you with this post shows me that.

and therein lies the beauty of life for me.

cheers.
I never intend to offend or insult anyone, my goal is to always express myself as forthrightly and honestly as I can at any given moment.  If that happens to offend others, I have no control over that.  It's just that I value my personal integrity and commitment to being as genuine as possible in higher regard than the whimsical sensitivities of others.  From my perspective, your post did border on the nonsensical and resembled a written word salad, it reminded me of the nonsense posts that Falcon writes.  That is all.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #208 on: December 03, 2013, 03:57:37 PM »
I never intend to offend or insult anyone, my goal is to always express myself as forthrightly and honestly as I can at any given moment.  If that happens to offend others, I have no control over that.  It's just that I value my personal integrity and commitment to being as genuine as possible in higher regard than the whimsical sensitivities of others.  From my perspective, your post did border on the nonsensical and resembled a written word salad, it reminded me of the nonsense posts that Falcon writes.  That is all.

trust me bro I am no more insulted by your words than I am impressed at your own self aggrandisation.

you feel your intellect is that much more superior to those around you that you say the things that you have in this post.

have I attacked your opinions or beliefs? no. why? because they don't matter to me. perhaps you'd be better suited to finding confidence in your own beliefs than attacking the beliefs of others. maybe then being 'right' and everyone else being 'wrong' wouldnt be such a priority for you.
 
stop and wonder why that is some time.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #209 on: December 03, 2013, 04:05:43 PM »
I never intend to offend or insult anyone, my goal is to always express myself as forthrightly and honestly as I can at any given moment.  If that happens to offend others, I have no control over that.  It's just that I value my personal integrity and commitment to being as genuine as possible in higher regard than the whimsical sensitivities of others.  From my perspective, your post did border on the nonsensical and resembled a written word salad, it reminded me of the nonsense posts that Falcon writes.  That is all.

Other people have personal integrity and commitment, too.  Just so you know.  

Why are other's sensitivities "whimsical"?  Are yours whimsical?  Maybe you think that theists have whimsical sensitivities because they believe in something you don't.  Don't wanna put words in your mouth, though.

It is ridiculous to try to convert anyone from/to atheism/theism by argument.  Usually a total waste of time and people just get pissed off.  

Radical Plato

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #210 on: December 03, 2013, 04:26:38 PM »
Other people have personal integrity and commitment, too.  Just so you know.  

Why are other's sensitivities "whimsical"?  Are yours whimsical?  Maybe you think that theists have whimsical sensitivities because they believe in something you don't.  Don't wanna put words in your mouth, though.

It is ridiculous to try to convert anyone from/to atheism/theism by argument.  Usually a total waste of time and people just get pissed off.  
I am unsure why you point out that other people have personal integrity and commitment. Are you suggesting that I should attempt not to offend them because of this.  And other peoples sensitivities are whimsical because some get easily offended by everything, some by only a few  things and others by nearly nothing.  There is no way of telling, so best to ignore the sensibilities of others, that's what is wrong with the world, people lack honesty and this is reinforced by such views as political correctness which only exacerbates the problem creating crybabies who are offended at the slightest perceived insult.  And I wasn't just referring to theists, the moronic masses are just whimsical by nature, chopping and changing as often as the wind does.  I myself have no problem if people hate me or wish to offend me.  My sense of self sees such attempts slide of me like rain slides of a newly waxed car.

I agree it is ridiculous to try and convert people, unfortunately this is a core tenet of religion (evangelicalism) and unwilling participants have been targeted for centuries.  I do not wish to convert anyone, as atheism isn't a religion. I simply oppose what I consider a dangerous ideology, one that has negatively impacted civilisation since it's inception.  I also despise intellectual laziness, deception and indoctrination, also tenets of religion.  If atheists/agnostics are forced to live in societies that contain large numbers of people who practise such foolishness, then they have every right to oppose it.  As I appreciated those atheists/agnostics before me who spoke honestly about their convictions, I do it not to convert people, but to set the same example and to show people their are alternative ways of thinking/being.  

If religion ceased to exist, I would never discuss my beliefs regarding the issue, the same couldn't be said for Religious people, if atheism  disappeared, they would still be banging on about God and miracles and blah, blah, blah. and all trying to convert each other to their particular brand of stupidity.  Religion has given people permission to stop thinking, and if it wasn't for atheists and those who were humble enough to admit that they don't know, we may all be still stuck in the dark ages.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #211 on: December 03, 2013, 04:30:45 PM »
at the end of the day we re all animals killing instead of being killed hoping to get the carrot after they defeated the baton.

galeniko

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #212 on: December 03, 2013, 05:07:09 PM »
hey noone, that was a phenomenal description.

btw, do the atheists wish there was no god, or would they mind?

they come off as there cant be one and period.

its better to say not sure.

"oz" you look absolutely great,i see you went all the way. 8)
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #213 on: December 03, 2013, 05:25:03 PM »
hey noone, that was a phenomenal description.

btw, do the atheists wish there was no god, or would they mind?

they come off as there cant be one and period.

its better to say not sure.

"oz" you look absolutely great,i see you went all the way. 8)

God helped me to achieve that.  ;D

lol I wish. It is a small pic and you cannot see properly there is still a bit of fat around stomach area but to get rid of that I would need to go extreme with calories cut. At this stage I have increased cardio
and will see in a next few weeks how is that going to work. If not working, will go crazy with calories cut (your style) and get there. It was quite draining to do this diet since June but I am different man I was 6 months ago.

Gonuclear

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #214 on: December 03, 2013, 05:25:47 PM »
I am unsure why you point out that other people have personal integrity and commitment. Are you suggesting that I should attempt not to offend them because of this.  And other peoples sensitivities are whimsical because some get easily offended by everything, some by only a few  things and others by nearly nothing.  There is no way of telling, so best to ignore the sensibilities of others, that's what is wrong with the world, people lack honesty and this is reinforced by such views as political correctness which only exacerbates the problem creating crybabies who are offended at the slightest perceived insult.  And I wasn't just referring to theists, the moronic masses are just whimsical by nature, chopping and changing as often as the wind does.  I myself have no problem if people hate me or wish to offend me.  My sense of self sees such attempts slide of me like rain slides of a newly waxed car.

I agree it is ridiculous to try and convert people, unfortunately this is a core tenet of religion (evangelicalism) and unwilling participants have been targeted for centuries.  I do not wish to convert anyone, as atheism isn't a religion. I simply oppose what I consider a dangerous ideology, one that has negatively impacted civilisation since it's inception.  I also despise intellectual laziness, deception and indoctrination, also tenets of religion.  If atheists/agnostics are forced to live in societies that contain large numbers of people who practise such foolishness, then they have every right to oppose it.  As I appreciated those atheists/agnostics before me who spoke honestly about their convictions, I do it not to convert people, but to set the same example and to show people their are alternative ways of thinking/being.  

If religion ceased to exist, I would never discuss my beliefs regarding the issue, the same couldn't be said for Religious people, if atheism  disappeared, they would still be banging on about God and miracles and blah, blah, blah. and all trying to convert each other to their particular brand of stupidity.  Religion has given people permission to stop thinking, and if it wasn't for atheists and those who were humble enough to admit that they don't know, we may all be still stuck in the dark ages.

I think you want to refer to fickle sensitivities or irrational sensitivities rather than "whimsical" ones.

Sorry I misunderstood you.

Radical Plato

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #215 on: December 03, 2013, 05:31:33 PM »
hey noone, that was a phenomenal description.

btw, do the atheists wish there was no god, or would they mind?

they come off as there cant be one and period.

its better to say not sure.

"oz" you look absolutely great,i see you went all the way. 8)
All religious people are atheists of a sort, they reject all other Gods except the one the choose to believe in.  Atheists just go one god further. And I don't think atheists "wish" their was no god, anymore than they wish their was no flying spaghetti monster.  If anything, the accusation is the other way around, some people are so desperate for there to be a "GOD' they will discard their critical thinking abilities and accept such an assertion with absolutely zero proof.  I don't think you could find a greater example of desperation.  Atheists are rational thinkers and expect evidence when others make phenomenal claims.  And as of yet there is zero evidence of the existence of GOD.  As an atheist/agnostic I would be equally fascinated at either possibility.  If their is a GOD,that is a mind blowing concept, and if their isn't one, that is equally compelling and fascinating.

Like Hawkins pointed out, religious belief is more than likely a byproduct of some other essential evolutionary survival skill.  Like a child needing to trust the adults around them would be essential to their survival.  Faith really is a form of gullibility, it ensures survival for young people but looks ridiculous on an adult.  That's why they call it indoctrination, the adult is incapable of shaking of the beliefs that were drilled into them as a child, and this is why they say teaching a child religion before they come of age is abuse, it likely crushes their critical thinking skills and prevents them developing the ability to develop a scientific worldview.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #216 on: December 03, 2013, 05:35:11 PM »
hey noone, that was a phenomenal description.

btw, do the atheists wish there was no god, or would they mind?

they come off as there cant be one and period.

its better to say not sure.

"oz" you look absolutely great,i see you went all the way. 8)

I don't think anyone can say anything is 'fact'.

I find it peculiarly funny yet telling of our supposed intelligence when all our 'beliefs' come from the ideas or words of other men. people who are as of limited intelligence as the rest of us, using a language, created by man, to express their ideas, thoughts and beliefs as 'proofs'. tell me how ridiculous this is. now you see why I say we are all but pigs wallowing in mud.

if only we searched in ourselves for the answers we seek, without being coloured by the beliefs of others. if only we weren't so blind as to fully grasp the enormity of our own inconsequence we might begin to find the answers that escape us.
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galeniko

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #217 on: December 03, 2013, 06:10:43 PM »
I don't think anyone can say anything is 'fact'.

I find it peculiarly funny yet telling of our supposed intelligence when all our 'beliefs' come from the ideas or words of other men. people who are as of limited intelligence as the rest of us, using a language, created by man, to express their ideas, thoughts and beliefs as 'proofs'. tell me how ridiculous this is. now you see why I say we are all but pigs wallowing in mud.

if only we searched in ourselves for the answers we seek, without being coloured by the beliefs of others. if only we weren't so blind as to fully grasp the enormity of our own inconsequence we might begin to find the answers that escape us.
yes our reality is kinda overrated, our sense for reality, we dont hear many soundwaves,but theyre there, we dont see x rays with our eyes but theyre there.
hell we dont even see the air, but its there.

however im all for honest scienc if everyone can learn something from it, keyword learn, not benefit.

and the religious ppl could be bit more tolerant in thinkng and acceptance of others, and believers of other religions.
it mustnt mean that god looks as described in the bible, sure it says he made us in his mirrror or whatever the saying is(im the case in point btw ;D ) but theres no accurate descrition,it could all be interpreted metaphoricaly.

god could be that force that made the bigang happen, thatd be my conclusion, and id rather call it creating force.the ten commandments are just minor ammendments(and the laws in nations are indirectly originated from them in a way often),bc the humans would smash eachothers skulls in to no end if it wasnt for certain rules.

some romantic anarchists will disagree,but for every peaceful anarchist,i know 2 absolute psychopaths who would murder them just for fun if there was no rules.

 
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #218 on: December 03, 2013, 07:10:04 PM »
I don't think anyone can say anything is 'fact'.

I find it peculiarly funny yet telling of our supposed intelligence when all our 'beliefs' come from the ideas or words of other men. people who are as of limited intelligence as the rest of us, using a language, created by man, to express their ideas, thoughts and beliefs as 'proofs'. tell me how ridiculous this is. now you see why I say we are all but pigs wallowing in mud.

if only we searched in ourselves for the answers we seek, without being coloured by the beliefs of others. if only we weren't so blind as to fully grasp the enormity of our own inconsequence we might begin to find the answers that escape us.
Of course we can say things are fact, this is the very basis of scientific enquiry.  Without their being fixed laws, the modern world wouldn't exist as it is today.  Gravity for instance is a FACT, 2 +2 = 4 is a fact. The speed of light being constant is a fact.  Scientific facts enabled electricity, cars, planes etc etc..  If you didn't accept these facts, you wouldn't drive or fly.  I think your proposition absolutely absurd.

And not all men are created equal, not everyone is of limited intelligence as you.  Science isn't expressing their thoughts and beliefs as proofs, you obviously have no concept of the way science works.  Science is based on evidence, it needs to be verifiable, if a thought or a belief cannot be verified, then it is discarded.

It sounds like you have had a few too many hits from the bong.  I don't know if you have been paying attention, but humanity has been finding countless answers to it's questions, and not by some mystical 'looking within' but by hard work, learning and scientific principles.  I think your assertion that we are all pigs wallowing in the mud is simply a projection of your own unconscious assessment of your life.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #219 on: December 03, 2013, 07:20:12 PM »
yes our reality is kinda overrated, our sense for reality, we dont hear many soundwaves,but theyre there, we dont see x rays with our eyes but theyre there.
hell we dont even see the air, but its there.

however im all for honest scienc if everyone can learn something from it, keyword learn, not benefit.

and the religious ppl could be bit more tolerant in thinkng and acceptance of others, and believers of other religions.
it mustnt mean that god looks as described in the bible, sure it says he made us in his mirrror or whatever the saying is(im the case in point btw ;D ) but theres no accurate descrition,it could all be interpreted metaphoricaly.

god could be that force that made the bigang happen, thatd be my conclusion, and id rather call it creating force.the ten commandments are just minor ammendments(and the laws in nations are indirectly originated from them in a way often),bc the humans would smash eachothers skulls in to no end if it wasnt for certain rules.

some romantic anarchists will disagree,but for every peaceful anarchist,i know 2 absolute psychopaths who would murder them just for fun if there was no rules.

 
lol at the belief humans haven't been smashing each others skulls in because of religious moral principles.  People have been smashing each others skulls in because of religion and not the other way around as you propose.  Religion hasn't brought humanity together, but simply driven a wedge between it.  Religion has been a divisive tool and only hindered humanities progress.  And I couldn't help but think of this classic family guy scene when I  read your post.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #220 on: December 03, 2013, 07:36:55 PM »
nah,lack of education.

not religion, that was the given reason, but all wars were fought because of money.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #221 on: December 03, 2013, 07:38:08 PM »
nah,lack of education.

not religion, that was the given reason, but all wars were fought because of money.


You obviously never heard of The Crusades.
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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #222 on: December 03, 2013, 07:45:09 PM »
He was born in 1947 in the tiny village of Thal, Austria a suburb of Graz.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #223 on: December 03, 2013, 08:58:37 PM »
Of course we can say things are fact, this is the very basis of scientific enquiry.  Without their being fixed laws, the modern world wouldn't exist as it is today.  Gravity for instance is a FACT, 2 +2 = 4 is a fact. The speed of light being constant is a fact.  Scientific facts enabled electricity, cars, planes etc etc..  If you didn't accept these facts, you wouldn't drive or fly.  I think your proposition absolutely absurd.

And not all men are created equal, not everyone is of limited intelligence as you.  Science isn't expressing their thoughts and beliefs as proofs, you obviously have no concept of the way science works.  Science is based on evidence, it needs to be verifiable, if a thought or a belief cannot be verified, then it is discarded.

It sounds like you have had a few too many hits from the bong.  I don't know if you have been paying attention, but humanity has been finding countless answers to it's questions, and not by some mystical 'looking within' but by hard work, learning and scientific principles.  I think your assertion that we are all pigs wallowing in the mud is simply a projection of your own unconscious assessment of your life.


Actually, he appears to have had just the right number of hits from the bong.

Parker

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Re: Question for God believers
« Reply #224 on: December 03, 2013, 09:12:54 PM »
You asshole, Universe does not mean "a single spoken sentence" as is known today, it;s all that exists by definition.

thus the postulation that god existed outside the universe is like saying what was before the big bang, it's nonsensical.

Also, isn't heaven in christianity a place, where people live? clearly this is not space, I find your interpretation odd.


Can't people "live" in a "space"? We talk about "space" all the "time".