Author Topic: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim  (Read 66135 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #575 on: December 17, 2013, 04:15:23 PM »
You wouldn't say that such self-protection laws cause it to matter, and very much so?

Don't understand what you mean.

Dos Equis

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #576 on: December 17, 2013, 04:16:15 PM »
...he could fearfully imagine being run over by a bus the intruder was somehow concealing, but of course that would be an unrealistic fear. Right?

Seems to me there is a very small scope of possibility. Would you agree or disagree?

Disagree, for the reasons I've already stated.  There are a number of ways someone can be injured or killed. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #577 on: December 17, 2013, 04:16:58 PM »
BTW: I believe the man was legitimately fearful when he shot Westbrook.

Right now, I'm referring to his mental health. That's it.

I'm not talking about his mental health, because I haven't read anything to lead me to believe he had mental health issues. 

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #578 on: December 17, 2013, 04:28:43 PM »
Disagree, for the reasons I've already stated.  There are a number of ways someone can be injured or killed.

So in the case of Hendrix: which of these should he have considered, as a healthy, reasonable person?

Dos Equis

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #579 on: December 17, 2013, 04:31:10 PM »
So in the case of Hendrix: which of these should he have considered, as a healthy, reasonable person?

None.  As I indicated earlier, I don't think reasonable people lay awake at night envisioning the various ways they can be injured or killed. 

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #580 on: December 17, 2013, 04:36:26 PM »
None.  As I indicated earlier, I don't think reasonable people lay awake at night envisioning the various ways they can be injured or killed.  

So you'd say a reasonable person might be unaware of the potentiality of various threats, such as gunshot, etc.(?).

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #581 on: December 17, 2013, 04:39:40 PM »
...trying to figure out what you mean.

Dos Equis

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #582 on: December 17, 2013, 04:44:22 PM »
So you'd say a reasonable person might be unaware of the potentiality of various threats, such as gunshot, etc.(?).

I say reasonable people don't worry about the various ways they can be injured or killed. 

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #583 on: December 17, 2013, 04:45:25 PM »
I say reasonable people don't worry about the various ways they can be injured or killed.  

...but they become obligated to do that, if they're going to shoot someone in a way that is viewed as reasonable. Right?

Dos Equis

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #584 on: December 17, 2013, 04:58:47 PM »
...but they become obligated to do that, if they're going to shoot someone in a way that is viewed as reasonable. Right?

No.  Where are you getting that from?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #585 on: December 17, 2013, 05:08:28 PM »
No.  Where are you getting that from?

If a person isn't giving consideration for the potentiality of the perceived threat he is responding to, how can he say whether his act of deadly force is reasonable?

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #586 on: December 17, 2013, 05:14:35 PM »
Will pick this up again soon, bro. Take care.

Dos Equis

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #587 on: December 17, 2013, 05:20:39 PM »
If a person isn't giving consideration for the potentiality of the perceived threat he is responding to, how can he say whether his act of deadly force is reasonable?

It depends on the circumstances.  If the perceived threat is outside, in broad daylight, and the perceived threat is a gun, then the attacker should have something that looks like a gun.  If the threat is fists, then the attacker wouldn't be holding anything.

If the threat is at night, and you cannot tell what the person has, but they're on you're property, then it doesn't matter whether you think they have a gun, knife, bat, etc. or just their fists.  It's the conduct that matters (for example, trying to open someone's door).   

tonymctones

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #588 on: December 17, 2013, 05:28:52 PM »
It depends on the circumstances.  If the perceived threat is outside, in broad daylight, and the perceived threat is a gun, then the attacker should have something that looks like a gun.  If the threat is fists, then the attacker wouldn't be holding anything.

If the threat is at night, and you cannot tell what the person has, but they're on you're property, then it doesn't matter whether you think they have a gun, knife, bat, etc. or just their fists.  It's the conduct that matters (for example, trying to open someone's door).   
or walking towards after being told identify themselves with a gun pointed at them.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #589 on: December 17, 2013, 05:31:08 PM »
If the threat is at night, and you cannot tell what the person has, but they're on you're property, then it doesn't matter whether you think they have a gun, knife, bat, etc. or just their fists.  It's the conduct that matters (for example, trying to open someone's door).   

Yes, you can't just shoot people in yards because you can't make out their hands.

or walking towards after being told identify themselves with a gun pointed at them.

Tony, suppose your dog runs into my yard.
Suppose I come outside with a shotgun and order you to the ground.
Then I start blasting if you don't obey.

That wouldn't be cool, not one bit.  Nor would it be legal.

OzmO

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #590 on: December 17, 2013, 05:39:07 PM »
or walking towards after being told identify themselves with a gun pointed at them.

Still not justification nor grounds to use deadly force.  No reasonable man would. 

And if it's that dark they don't know there is a gun on them, nor is it soething a reasonable man would assume on both sides.

OzmO

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #591 on: December 17, 2013, 05:40:56 PM »
It depends on the circumstances.  If the perceived threat is outside, in broad daylight, and the perceived threat is a gun, then the attacker should have something that looks like a gun.  If the threat is fists, then the attacker wouldn't be holding anything.

If the threat is at night, and you cannot tell what the person has, but they're on you're property, then it doesn't matter whether you think they have a gun, knife, bat, etc. or just their fists.  It's the conduct that matters (for example, trying to open someone's door).   

There is a huge difference between forcing entry and knocking othe door and jiggling the handle.  That's why the article I posted talking about the Georgia law is relevant.   

And it wast his property.  He was visitor. 

tonymctones

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #592 on: December 17, 2013, 05:41:02 PM »
Yes, you can't just shoot people in yards because you can't make out their hands.
yea b/c thats exactly what happend here, hendrix on one of his nightly patrols stumbled upon a man in his yard and indiscriminately executed him

Tony, suppose your dog runs into my yard.
Suppose I come outside with a shotgun and order you to the ground.
Then I start blasting if you don't obey.

That wouldn't be cool, not one bit.  Nor would it be legal.

you can troll better than this dumb ass, ive seen it...get on your game moron

tonymctones

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #593 on: December 17, 2013, 05:43:06 PM »
Still not justification nor grounds to use deadly force.  No reasonable man would. 

And if it's that dark they don't know there is a gun on them, nor is it soething a reasonable man would assume on both sides.
heyyyyyy!!!!

look you finally get it that this is the moment when the reasonable man standard will be judged!!!!

I think you have a valid opinion here, I think someone who feels like it was reasonable has a valid opinion too...well just have to wait and see what the DA says

blacken700

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #594 on: December 17, 2013, 05:43:25 PM »
with the logic going on here it's pretty much ok to shoot anybody anytime if their on your land,just say you were scared

tonymctones

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #595 on: December 17, 2013, 05:45:30 PM »
with the logic going on here it's pretty much ok to shoot anybody anytime if their on your land,just say you were scared
yup b/c thats exactly what happend here right libtard....

OzmO

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #596 on: December 17, 2013, 05:48:06 PM »
heyyyyyy!!!!

look you finally get it that this is the moment when the reasonable man standard will be judged!!!!

I think you have a valid opinion here, I think someone who feels like it was reasonable has a valid opinion too...well just have to wait and see what the DA says

I have been kind of saying that for a while and using it in my arguments with you.   So I don't get it. Lol

I understand what you are saying with the reasonable man standard and just pretty much reworded my arguments to use that as a starting point.  In law I guess it's not the same thing.

OzmO

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #597 on: December 17, 2013, 05:49:52 PM »
yup b/c thats exactly what happend here right libtard....

This is a pretty good debate topic.  It also hasn't digressed too much into labeling and stereotyping political ideology fueled arguments usually go to.   

tonymctones

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #598 on: December 17, 2013, 05:52:34 PM »
I have been kind of saying that for a while and using it in my arguments with you.   So I don't get it. Lol

I understand what you are saying with the reasonable man standard and just pretty much reworded my arguments to use that as a starting point.  In law I guess it's not the same thing.
you have been KINDA doing this yes I agree.

The issue is you want to say that b/c he went outside it shows a reasonable man wouldnt fear for bodily harm.

Here you left that nonsense out as it doesnt play into the actual shooting.

tonymctones

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #599 on: December 17, 2013, 05:53:59 PM »
This is a pretty good debate topic.  It also hasn't digressed too much into labeling and stereotyping political ideology fueled arguments usually go to.   
sorry Oz idiocy needs to be called out and the idea that he went and shot him just b/c he was on his land is about as fucking idiotic as it gets.