How high can you run Growth before...

[oni]

You would think it would but the ketogenic diets definitely lower the benefits of gh IMO

interesting, I know ketogenic dieting increases GH/IGF, generally
If you've got any further reading on this, I'd be grateful. As a strength trainer I benefit more from test:igf ratio than simply AAS so am all about increasing IGF as much as possible. GHRP2 before I go to sleep has got me in a pretty sweet range

[Mawse]

interesting, I know ketogenic dieting increases GH/IGF, generally
If you've got any further reading on this, I'd be grateful. As a strength trainer I benefit more from test:igf ratio than simply AAS so am all about increasing IGF as much as possible. GHRP2 before I go to sleep has got me in a pretty sweet range

Fat people with to much insulin production often have elevated igf1 despite having lower hgh (and sleep apnea which also lowers igf1)

Sugar / insulin and estrogen all affect igf1 production and transport

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9152736/

[oni]

Interesting
For the guy that ketogenic diets, one carb-up a week, what would be the most cost effective way to raise IGF-1?
I currently take a 75mcg shot of GHRP2 post training (twice a day) and before bed, has my IGF-1 in mid 300s. Thinking of switching to a single 300mcg ipamorelin shot after my evening training session

[ESFitness]

Interesting
For the guy that ketogenic diets, one carb-up a week, what would be the most cost effective way to raise IGF-1?
I currently take a 75mcg shot of GHRP2 post training (twice a day) and before bed, has my IGF-1 in mid 300s. Thinking of switching to a single 300mcg ipamorelin shot after my evening training session

ever tried using actual igf1 and getting bloodwork?

[oni]

ever tried using actual igf1 and getting bloodwork?

I've used Lr3 but never got blood work. I might get a vial or two and trial it. What do you think would be a SENSIBLE (lol) dose? Ideally I'd want my IGF-1 in the mid to upper 400s, but I really have no idea what dose this would be and don't want to play guessing games for a month

[oni]

After reading further into it, it won't actually increase my systemic levels of IGF-1. I don't really understand what is going on with it but I think GHRP2 is a cheaper and more effective bet here

[ESFitness]

I've used Lr3 but never got blood work. I might get a vial or two and trial it. What do you think would be a SENSIBLE (lol) dose? Ideally I'd want my IGF-1 in the mid to upper 400s, but I really have no idea what dose this would be and don't want to play guessing games for a month

I'd say a minimum of 100mcg/day. I use up to 200mcg/day just because I have a decent supply.. but can't really say I get anymore benefit than 100mcg/day.

[chess315]

I'd say a minimum of 100mcg/day. I use up to 200mcg/day just because I have a decent supply.. but can't really say I get anymore benefit than 100mcg/day.

vanbilderass put a lot of study into this and said he thought it would work very well in mg+ daily dosage always been curious about that. They give the igf deficient children mg plus dosage a day of normal igf1 though.

[galeniko]

well, my only concern would be long term elevation in blood sugar from the gh.

will you notice any negative sides from blood sugar in the 130s/140s?... hell, even 160s?  hell, you probably won't really 'notice' or feel anything, but I still wouldn't want to be that high.. at least not if I can help it.

how many people running gh actually TEST their blood sugar? very, very few.. I think they'd be surprised to see what their blood sugar is throughout the day.

not saying you need to run 50iu's of slin/day... but enough to keep you sub-120 I think is a good idea.

or at least use some Glucophage and try to counter the insulin-resistance from the gh.

yes, exact, you can "kinda" feel somethings wrong, but not 100% exact what.

even 120 is plenty high for blood sugar level.

another thing to watch out for is, the carbs from the insulin may raise blood pressure, 50% of the ppl with elevated bp have a shit insulin resistence.

and yes everybody says the body uses up the carbs better on gh.

oth, ofc i believe the mega doses, all im saying is, its not the biggest guys who megadose.i have come accross ppl who ran ridiculous amounts of gear but they didnt really look like it

[galeniko]

If a client didn't want to use insulin. What would be your advice?

watch blood glucose, i dont want to upset esfitness, but even 115 is very high, hell, i am at lower than 120 an hour after eating a 2lbs cake,this is no joke btw.

so, use a dose that wont elevate it any higher than 100-110,which is still plenty high.

thats gonna be few ius daily.

if one dont pay attention to this, insulin sensitivity will go to shit and trigger many many bad things short term and some things one might be very sorry for long term.

[LurkerNoMore]

How much would depend on the HGH itself.  I mean the total ius from Serostim is going to be a lot lower for that threshold that it is going to be for some chinese generic crap. 

Unless you are using genuine legit HGH then it is just guesswork unless you are testing regularly for exact levels.  The purity of foreign HGH varies too much to accurately plan it without testing.

[usmcdevildoc]

There are ranges for average people, not sure if that changes with athletes though. USMCDdoc would be a good guy to ask here.

I do know that the health effects are terrible if your glucose levels are in the high range though.

Bros-
Greatly impressed with your knowledge of GH/IGF1.

It is been my experience with that:
1. For mass- greater than 8 IUs of brand GH plus insulin (regular works well as LA). Insulin given in divided dose. As previously mentioned, there is a great deal of individual variability. Some need more 20–30 IUs of GH and titrate insulin accordingly.
2. For cuts-use 3 to 4 IUs of brand GH. No need for insulin.
3. As suggested, IGF1 is the proprietorial compound.  Because of the pulsatile secretion of human growth hormone, indirect serologic assessment, of growth hormone is best accomplished by measuring IGF1, which is released from the liver and other tissues in response to growth hormone and which mediates many of growth hormones actions. It would make sense therefore that the way to go is with the use of IGF1. I would recommend using this with insulin.
The only problem that I might see with the use of insulin, as a down regulation of IGFBP-3. This is a protein that transports and binds 70-90% of IGF1 in serum, thereby limiting it's bioavailability and extending it's half-life. Lower levels of IGFBPs especially relative to IGF1, have been associated with increased risk and poor prognosis and several types of cancer. From that perspective, I suppose, all GH and IGF1 products should not be used or at least used with caution in anyone over the age of 40–50 or in patients who have a previous history of malignancy
~~~~~
The way to go appears to be IGF1. Yes I would use insulin with this.
~~~~~
4.  Somebody asked about the symptoms of elevated blood sugar. Usually nothing until the Blood glucose gets greater than 300. Symptoms can include: lethargy, fatigue, excessive urination, excessive thirst, confusion, and in severe cases coma. The latter can come about from hyperosmolar state versus diabetic ketoacidosis.  
5.  The short acting GHRPs are a whole separate story. Not really certain that they require CJC 1293/95 to 'open the gate'.

Hope this helps bros.

DOC
Lift, fuck, make money

[ESFitness]

watch blood glucose, i dont want to upset esfitness, but even 115 is very high, hell, i am at lower than 120 an hour after eating a 2lbs cake,this is no joke btw.

so, use a dose that wont elevate it any higher than 100-110,which is still plenty high.

thats gonna be few ius daily.

if one dont pay attention to this, insulin sensitivity will go to shit and trigger many many bad things short term and some things one might be very sorry for long term.

ideally I'd keep it at 95/100, but i'll tolerate 115/120.

[oni]

Bros-
Greatly impressed with your knowledge of GH/IGF1.

It is been my experience with that:
1. For mass- greater than 8 IUs of brand GH plus insulin (regular works well as LA). Insulin given in divided dose. As previously mentioned, there is a great deal of individual variability. Some need more 20–30 IUs of GH and titrate insulin accordingly.
2. For cuts-use 3 to 4 IUs of brand GH. No need for insulin.
3. As suggested, IGF1 is the proprietorial compound.  Because of the pulsatile secretion of human growth hormone, indirect serologic assessment, of growth hormone is best accomplished by measuring IGF1, which is released from the liver and other tissues in response to growth hormone and which mediates many of growth hormones actions. It would make sense therefore that the way to go is with the use of IGF1. I would recommend using this with insulin.
The only problem that I might see with the use of insulin, as a down regulation of IGFBP-3. This is a protein that transports and binds 70-90% of IGF1 in serum, thereby limiting it's bioavailability and extending it's half-life. Lower levels of IGFBPs especially relative to IGF1, have been associated with increased risk and poor prognosis and several types of cancer. From that perspective, I suppose, all GH and IGF1 products should not be used or at least used with caution in anyone over the age of 40–50 or in patients who have a previous history of malignancy
~~~~~
The way to go appears to be IGF1. Yes I would use insulin with this.
~~~~~
4.  Somebody asked about the symptoms of elevated blood sugar. Usually nothing until the Blood glucose gets greater than 300. Symptoms can include: lethargy, fatigue, excessive urination, excessive thirst, confusion, and in severe cases coma. The latter can come about from hyperosmolar state versus diabetic ketoacidosis.  
5.  The short acting GHRPs are a whole separate story. Not really certain that they require CJC 1293/95 to 'open the gate'.

Hope this helps bros.

DOC
Lift, fuck, make money

2-3, 75mcg shots of GHRP2 a day has my IGF in the mid 300s and my hair and fingernails growing like weeds. I keto/paleo diet. I don't use a CJC at all.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8421084 good study, insulin also seems to "open the gate". I find timing the dose correctly is the key. It makes me feel weak as hell so on days I don't train in the AM I'll take it upon waking, post AM training, post PM training or right before I go to sleep

[ProudVirgin69]

2-3, 75mcg shots of GHRP2 a day has my IGF in the mid 300s and my hair and fingernails growing like weeds. I keto/paleo diet. I don't use a CJC at all.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8421084 good study, insulin also seems to "open the gate". I find timing the dose correctly is the key. It makes me feel weak as hell so on days I don't train in the AM I'll take it upon waking, post AM training, post PM training or right before I go to sleep

Mid-300s is barely out of physiological range.... what's the point?  Get some gh or shoot more aas

[Mawse]

I would kill for mid 300s, even on pharm gh I'm not close to that.

The only igf that is real is increlex , and since that doesn't have igfbp3 in it, that makes it dangerous to use IMO. Low igfbp3 with high igf1 is what causes cancer, something the "let's starve ourselves to lower all igf to prevent cancer" morons don't seem to understand.

I can't believe fir one second research chem and Chinese igf is actually legit at that price, increlex makes serostim look cheap.

Edit, I see doc already covered igf bp's and their required ratio to igf1

[oni]

Mid-300s is barely out of physiological range.... what's the point?  Get some gh or shoot more aas

What's the point in a 200 point boost in IGF?
Come on bro, you don't need to ask that

[ProudVirgin69]

What's the point in a 200 point boost in IGF?
Come on bro, you don't need to ask that

Your baseline was 150? Damn well if that's the case for you I guess I can see why
 
If size or strength is your goal it won't do much for that compared to gh or aas but to each his own

[oni]

Your baseline was 150? Damn well if that's the case for you I guess I can see why
 
If size or strength is your goal it won't do much for that compared to gh or aas but to each his own

Yeah it sucked. I am coming off them and getting another test in Jan though. GH is terribly expensive, of course AAS is good but my ghrp use costs less than a dollar a day and I benefit so much from it. Makes my skin, hair and nails amazing, great recovery from training, no tendinitis ever and I do notice a good amount of strength from it- it's just more of an "over the course of a year" thing though.

Also I am young, so would have to run at least 4ui of gh a day. 2ui would just replace my own gh- ghrp enhances it if that makes sense

[Big Chiro Flex]

Yeah it sucked. I am coming off them and getting another test in Jan though. GH is terribly expensive, of course AAS is good but my ghrp use costs less than a dollar a day and I benefit so much from it. Makes my skin, hair and nails amazing, great recovery from training, no tendinitis ever and I do notice a good amount of strength from it- it's just more of an "over the course of a year" thing though.

Also I am young, so would have to run at least 4ui of gh a day. 2ui would just replace my own gh- ghrp enhances it if that makes sense

You just use GHRP2?

Ever use cjc or Ipamorelin?

[oni]

You just use GHRP2?

Ever use cjc or Ipamorelin?

Yeah. I find if you time GHRP2 right there is no reason to use CJC. Morning, post workout, before you sleep.
Ipamorelin is good but it starts to shine when you use more than the limit dose of GHRP2 which I use less than. If I could afford it I'd take 500mcg of ipamorelin post training instead of 150-300mcg of GHRP2 for sure

Makes my skin great, it's hard to describe but it looks kinda thicker/shinier but tighter. It's probably the same look GH gives I guess

[Dago_Joe]

ideally I'd keep it at 95/100, but i'll tolerate 115/120.

Oh fuck, I am over 120 regularly.  I do notice it more when on 8+ IU GH daily.  I felt it badly when I did 30 IU QD for 7 days.  Just like galeniko said, I had an "off' feeling and lethargy.  My wrist hurt so bad and my feet were swollen like melons.  Cut the GH off completely for a week after that   
Might need to try GHRP now, you got me interested.  Don't know if I should cut way back on GH like 3 iu a day or add metformin or insulin at this point.  The gains from 8-16 IU GH daily are no joke.  It works.  But my glucose is around 130-140 at times on GH.  Might be time to kick in a little dreaded insulina.  GH15 would not be proud. 

[oni]

Oh fuck, I am over 120 regularly.  I do notice it more when on 8+ IU GH daily.  I felt it badly when I did 30 IU QD for 7 days.  Just like galeniko said, I had an "off' feeling and lethargy.  My wrist hurt so bad and my feet were swollen like melons.  Cut the GH off completely for a week after that   
Might need to try GHRP now, you got me interested.  Don't know if I should cut way back on GH like 3 iu a day or add metformin or insulin at this point.  The gains from 8-16 IU GH daily are no joke.  It works.  But my glucose is around 130-140 at times on GH.  Might be time to kick in a little dreaded insulina.  GH15 would not be proud. 

I've read about people using GHRP and cutting their GH dose down 2-3ui with equal effect
Dunno how legit this would be though. You can probably get a good 200 point boost in igf though

[ESFitness]

Oh fuck, I am over 120 regularly.  I do notice it more when on 8+ IU GH daily.  I felt it badly when I did 30 IU QD for 7 days.  Just like galeniko said, I had an "off' feeling and lethargy.  My wrist hurt so bad and my feet were swollen like melons.  Cut the GH off completely for a week after that   
Might need to try GHRP now, you got me interested.  Don't know if I should cut way back on GH like 3 iu a day or add metformin or insulin at this point.  The gains from 8-16 IU GH daily are no joke.  It works.  But my glucose is around 130-140 at times on GH.  Might be time to kick in a little dreaded insulina.  GH15 would not be proud. 

adding just a little insulin, maybe even 3-4iu humulin R twice a day, or 6iu N once a day won't give any "bad" side effects.

I'm not a big fan of metformin, since it makes my head hurt and feel 'metallic' (for lack of a better description), but you could start at 250mg in the AM and see how that effects your BG after a few days.

[Dago_Joe]

adding just a little insulin, maybe even 3-4iu humulin R twice a day, or 6iu N once a day won't give any "bad" side effects.

I'm not a big fan of metformin, since it makes my head hurt and feel 'metallic' (for lack of a better description), but you could start at 250mg in the AM and see how that effects your BG after a few days.

If I go back up to over 10 IU GH, I will add the insulin like you suggested.  I was thinking humulin R, little more even effect from what i have read.  Never used insulin before, so i will be smart and take small doses first and see how i react.  I have a glucometer so I can read my glucose levels.  Thanks for the advice.