Advice for 4th cycle.

[chetanbarokar]

Hello friends,

This is my first post as you see and that too in steroids section. Usually that brings lots of flame. So I wouldnt mind if you bash me for it.

I am an aspiring competitive bodybuilder. Currently sort of skinny with 88kgs body weight on a frame of 6'2". Bodyfat would be around 11%. Thats skinny for my height from competition perspective. I am aware. I need to put on tons of muscle mass to look presentable onstage.

I would like to know your opinion about drug choice between deca and tren for an effective bulker of 6 months.
My problem: Tren is too damn expensive and deca is comparatively cheaper.
Cost of 150mg tren hex = Cost of 750mg deca.
My past 2-3 cycles consisted of test E along with Dbols. 3rd cycle was 750mg test E for 8 weeks and 40mg dbols for first 6 weeks.
May be I made lots of mistakes during those cycles, may be my bodyfat was too high and thus I gained too much fat and thus couldnt get optimal outcome. Point is, I am still small after 3 cycles. And I accept that this is pathetic.

I am planning my 4th cycle coming this Feb 2014.
That bulking cycle would go on for 6 months and then will start cutting with another mix like tren/eq for local show which will be somewhere around Dec 2014.

Now, please advice what would be your choice if you were me:

Per week dosage:
A. 500mg Test E + 500mg Deca (or 750mg Deca) + 50 mg Dbol/day
Dbol (6 weeks off - 6 weeks on)

OR

B. 750mg Test E + 150mg Tren Hex (Alpha pharma parabolin) + 50mg Dbol/day

Which one would yield me best results quality muscle mass wise? Little bit water retention on deca is acceptable if that stack is going to give me more actual muscle tissue than tren stack. Cant up tren dosage in option B due to budgetary constraint.
This will be for 6 months where I would aim to put on around 2lbs bodyweight every week.

Please let me know your view on this.

Also, do you think I shall use insulin at this stage? But I cant afford GH so not sure if using insulin would be a good choice without GH in the mix.

Thanking you in advance.

[starfox]

Your dosages are a bit on the low side. If possible increase the dosages as the cycle progresses.
6 month is a long time to stay on the same drugs.

Since you're going to cut after I would go with deca and switch to trenbolone for precontest prep.

And as far as insulin goes, stay away from it for now.

[ESFitness]

too tired to read the whole thing.. but I'd go with test and deca with dbol for what you want.

[chetanbarokar]

Thanks starfox. How do you suggest shall I increase the dose? Test shall be increased or deca? Please see if you can explain.

[starfox]

Thanks starfox. How do you suggest shall I increase the dose? Test shall be increased or deca? Please see if you can explain.

Start with the dosages you suggested and increase every couple of weeks. It's really up to you and your wallet how high you go.
Typically if you stay on the same drugs/dosages for a long time, gains tend to stagger.
However if you feel that everything is going well there's really no need to increase until you reach a plateau. Then maybe add another ML every week or so.

I'd say first and foremost increase test, but if you can afford it increase deca as well.

[ESFitness]

if I were you, I'd run 500 test and 500 deca with 50mg dbol/day for at least 12 weeks straight. your liver isn't going to be fucked after 12wks at 50/day.

then unless you want to have kids, come off everything except for 100-150mg test/wk for a month or two and go back on.

[chetanbarokar]

Start with the dosages you suggested and increase every couple of weeks. It's really up to you and your wallet how high you go.
Typically if you stay on the same drugs/dosages for a long time, gains tend to stagger.
However if you feel that everything is going well there's really no need to increase until you reach a plateau. Then maybe add another ML every week or so.

I'd say first and foremost increase test, but if you can afford it increase deca as well.

Thanks again starfox. I can afford deca no probs. How much can we increase deca? Is it okay to run it in the range of 750mg - 1gm? Just asking as I've never read about someone running deca in that range. But if thats feasible, I'd like to do the experiment. Your view please?

[chetanbarokar]

if I were you, I'd run 500 test and 500 deca with 50mg dbol/day for at least 12 weeks straight. your liver isn't going to be fucked after 12wks at 50/day.

then unless you want to have kids, come off everything except for 100-150mg test/wk for a month or two and go back on.

I dont have any problem running dbol for 12 weeks. Will do that for sure. I've already had kid. So thats not a problem again.
I've already decided not to come off till next several years.
In this case, I think 24 weeks of (test + deca + dbol) with increasing dosage of test and deca would be optimal as mentioned by starfox. Would like to hear your opinion too about it.

[shrek]

WHAT TGE FUCK IS UP WITH ALL THESE NOOBS? I feel there is some infiltration shit going on .... we have dudes with less then 10 posts starting threads and less then 10 posts replying .......??

[ESFitness]

I dont have any problem running dbol for 12 weeks. Will do that for sure. I've already had kid. So thats not a problem again.
I've already decided not to come off till next several years.
In this case, I think 24 weeks of (test + deca + dbol) with increasing dosage of test and deca would be optimal as mentioned by starfox. Would like to hear your opinion too about it.

i think I'd do it a lil different.. well, actually, I'd do it like i do now. lol... only with small dosages for you of course.

to use 'blast/cruise' as an example, only the 'blast' would be 12weeks, and the 'cruise' would be 6-8 weeks.

i really dont' subscribe to the thing where you need to increase the dose every 'cycle', in this case, the 'cycle' would be your blast phase, and the cruise would be you're 'off' period, even though you're still using 500mg test/wk.

If you're gonna do that, I'd say run a gram of test and a gram of deca plus dbol at either 50 or 100mg/day (not much difference between 100 and 150, but there is from 150 and 200, which i usually run) for 12 weeks. (better yet, 2g test.. it's cheap)

then come off at 500mg test/wk for 6-8wks, and repeat the whole thing over and over and over until you've found your 'plateau'.

if 'deca dick' is a problem at 1g/wk, add in a little proviron or masteron at 25-50/day (150-300/wk), whichever you can get cheaper... i prefer proviron, but i never get 'deca dick'.

if you keep your kcals the same, you'll get lean and hard and grainy and it'll be easy to stay that way year round... if you eat like you're 'bulking', you'll gain more bodyweight and maybe get a lil 'soft' looking (duh).

personally, i'll hit test/deca/dbol for 10+weeks, then drop the test a little, and switch out the deca for tren(at about 50-75mg per mg,depending), and switch out the dbol for anadrol (double the mg for anadrol as i was using with dbol) for 5-6 weeks, then "cruise" on test alone for a month or so, maybe more.

my doses would be something like this...

test enan 4g
deca 2g
dbol 100-200mg/day
for 12-14weeks...

then...
test enan 3g
tren 1g
drol 200-250mg/day
for 5-6weeks...

then...
test enan 1-1.5g/wk
for 4-6weeks

........ and repeat.

the arimidex and prami gets used/adjusted as needed.

you can follow a similar plan, except with about 1/2 of what my doses are.. or maybe 1/3 my doses...

[chetanbarokar]

Thanks ESFitness. 1/3rd of your dosage would be good to go for me I think. And I thought about blasting and cruising before but then thought that I'd better be off with long cycle of constant dosage. But after reading your post, I guess I shall give blasting and cruising a try.
One question by the way, why do you think long cycle with constant dosage would be less efficient than blast and cruise? Not at all doubting your concept, just curious.
Thanks again for detailed write up.

[chetanbarokar]

WHAT TGE FUCK IS UP WITH ALL THESE NOOBS? I feel there is some infiltration shit going on .... we have dudes with less then 10 posts starting threads and less then 10 posts replying .......??

Didnt the thought ever cross your mind that although these members have very less post counts on their profile, still in actuality they may not be NOOB and may have several years of experience in training/drugs etc..?? How do you define if a person is experienced in real life or not? By looking at his post count?

[starfox]

Thanks ESFitness. 1/3rd of your dosage would be good to go for me I think. And I thought about blasting and cruising before but then thought that I'd better be off with long cycle of constant dosage. But after reading your post, I guess I shall give blasting and cruising a try.
One question by the way, why do you think long cycle with constant dosage would be less efficient than blast and cruise? Not at all doubting your concept, just curious.
Thanks again for detailed write up.

The key is to change things up in order to avoid plateaus. Blast and cruise is one way to do it, increasing dosages after time is one way (even though ESFitness doesn't seem to agree with this method).
In my opinion either way is fine. Switching drugs instead of dosages is also an alternative.

[efanhowz]

if I were you, I'd run 500 test and 500 deca with 50mg dbol/day for at least 12 weeks straight. your liver isn't going to be fucked after 12wks at 50/day.

then unless you want to have kids, come off everything except for 100-150mg test/wk for a month or two and go back on.

Very good advice (I don't like the length orals but everyone is different)

After the month of coming off (or low dose cruise) then increase the doses by %50

Make it a clean bulk and don't get fat. Sounds like you are a long way from a contest and unfortunately you will realize that more and more with each cycle

[shrek]

Didnt the thought ever cross your mind that although these members have very less post counts on their profile, still in actuality they may not be NOOB and may have several years of experience in training/drugs etc..?? How do you define if a person is experienced in real life or not? By looking at his post count?

because of the long drawn out post

[chetanbarokar]

Very good advice (I don't like the length orals but everyone is different)

After the month of coming off (or low dose cruise) then increase the doses by %50

Make it a clean bulk and don't get fat. Sounds like you are a long way from a contest and unfortunately you will realize that more and more with each cycle

Thanks efanhowz. Yes, I am already aware of this fact that I am far away from a contest physique for my height.
Will keep the bulk as clean as possible.

[chetanbarokar]

because of the long drawn out post

I could have kept it short like a one liner but then I would have gotten flamed with comments like no history, stats,....etc.
Thus, wanted to give you friends a short introduction about myself and my aspirations.
Anyways, I wouldnd mind being called NOOB. Peace.
 

[ESFitness]

The key is to change things up in order to avoid plateaus. Blast and cruise is one way to do it, increasing dosages after time is one way (even though ESFitness doesn't seem to agree with this method).
In my opinion either way is fine. Switching drugs instead of dosages is also an alternative.

well, I don't disagree with the method.

I think you'll plateau a little though.

It's my belief that the body requires a certain amount of androgens/anabolics/hormones to maintain a certain bodyweight.

every increasing dosages would in theory get to a point where you're running 3g/wk, or 5g/wk (and so on) all year long... now, I've done that, but I wouldn't recommend somebody else doing that.

I think 'crusing' on 500mg test/wk (which is like 20x what normal hrt doses would be), and 'blasting' at 2-2.5g/wk or so for 12weeks (even 8wks) is 'safer' and more effective. and no, I don't think you need to increase your 'blast' dosage everytime. if I believed you needed ever-increasing dosages, by now I'd be running 20g/wk during a 'blast', but I don't. I stick to about 4-7g total (depending on what drugs I use, including orals which account for up to 1400mg/wk or so).

I'm not a big fan of using the 'blast/cruise' name... for me blast=on cycle, and cruise=off cycle... except "off cycle" for me means I'm still using testosterone.

[Big Chiro Flex]

WHAT ESF SAID....

(except personally I'd cut the doses in half, but that's just me.)

[shrek]

I could have kept it short like a one liner but then I would have gotten flamed with comments like no history, stats,....etc.
Thus, wanted to give you friends a short introduction about myself and my aspirations.
Anyways, I wouldnd mind being called NOOB. Peace.
 

agree .... welcome to the circus

[chetanbarokar]

well, I don't disagree with the method.

I think you'll plateau a little though.

It's my belief that the body requires a certain amount of androgens/anabolics/hormones to maintain a certain bodyweight.

every increasing dosages would in theory get to a point where you're running 3g/wk, or 5g/wk (and so on) all year long... now, I've done that, but I wouldn't recommend somebody else doing that.

I think 'crusing' on 500mg test/wk (which is like 20x what normal hrt doses would be), and 'blasting' at 2-2.5g/wk or so for 12weeks (even 8wks) is 'safer' and more effective. and no, I don't think you need to increase your 'blast' dosage everytime. if I believed you needed ever-increasing dosages, by now I'd be running 20g/wk during a 'blast', but I don't. I stick to about 4-7g total (depending on what drugs I use, including orals which account for up to 1400mg/wk or so).

I'm not a big fan of using the 'blast/cruise' name... for me blast=on cycle, and cruise=off cycle... except "off cycle" for me means I'm still using testosterone.

ESFitness, thanks for the explanation. I've read some other posts on the forum and few other members had opinion about deca that more than 600mg or so would do us more harm than good. I'd like to know your experience about running 2 gms deca/week. Please share.

[Big Chiro Flex]

ESFitness, thanks for the explanation. I've read some other posts on the forum and few other members had opinion about deca that more than 600mg or so would do us more harm than good. I'd like to know your experience about running 2 gms deca/week. Please share.

How would it do more harm past 600??

[ESFitness]

ESFitness, thanks for the explanation. I've read some other posts on the forum and few other members had opinion about deca that more than 600mg or so would do us more harm than good. I'd like to know your experience about running 2 gms deca/week. Please share.

I've read a few things from a few guys about the 'dangers of deca'.. cancer and heart risks, ect.. I'm not really buying it.

I've also read from a respected person that deca occupys receptors and prevents test from doing it's job or whatever..

well.... I know that I get better results on 1g deca and 1g test than I do on 2g test alone.

I've also heard/read about the 'saturation point' for androgens being 3-4g/wk or anywhere in between... now, if all we needed to do was saturation androgen receptors, then all we'd need was 7mg/wk of methyltrienolone.. but we know that's not the case. (although, I do have a few guys running NOTHING BUT methyltrienolone at 500mcg/day and they're looking fucking great... I'm seriously amazed at the quality and gains they'd gotten... anyways).

so, for me 2g/wk of deca is great for quality size. is it better than 1500? I dunno... but I have it, so I use it. I do hold a little water on it, but nothing that won't come off when I need it... so long as your bodyfat is low enough, you'll look fine (like a bodybuilder).

[tstmaniac]

well, I don't disagree with the method.

I think you'll plateau a little though.

It's my belief that the body requires a certain amount of androgens/anabolics/hormones to maintain a certain bodyweight.

every increasing dosages would in theory get to a point where you're running 3g/wk, or 5g/wk (and so on) all year long... now, I've done that, but I wouldn't recommend somebody else doing that.

I think 'crusing' on 500mg test/wk (which is like 20x what normal hrt doses would be), and 'blasting' at 2-2.5g/wk or so for 12weeks (even 8wks) is 'safer' and more effective. and no, I don't think you need to increase your 'blast' dosage everytime. if I believed you needed ever-increasing dosages, by now I'd be running 20g/wk during a 'blast', but I don't. I stick to about 4-7g total (depending on what drugs I use, including orals which account for up to 1400mg/wk or so).

I'm not a big fan of using the 'blast/cruise' name... for me blast=on cycle, and cruise=off cycle... except "off cycle" for me means I'm still using testosterone.

Wow a year long 3G to 5g is insane lol... Did you have any bad side effects?

[ESFitness]

Wow a year long 3G to 5g is insane lol... Did you have any bad side effects?

no.

not besides these night-sweats I've been having lately.. that seem to be getting worse now that I've cut my doses down to 'cruise' levels (about 1500 test lately).

people complain about anxiety on high dose tren or eq, but you get anxiety from high dose test as well, but it goes away after about 3 weeks or so.

so long as your blood pressure is in normal ranges you'll be ok. piss was darker depending on what I was using. (tren made it darker always, as does winstrol sometimes.. anadrol and methyltrienolone and dbol does not)