BitCoin loses 50 Percent of its Value overnight. :)

[Ganuvanx]

As I said before, as a computer scientist, I find Bitcoin technologically and theoretically interesting. As a practical person, I don't find it compelling as a store of value or, for the time being, a medium of exchange. Your mileage may vary.

I understand your point of view. Understand though, there are enough people out there that disagree with your feelings to drive the price of bitcoin to the moon. That alone makes it worth getting some. That’s the investing philosophy made Jimmy Rogers rich.

[Wiggs]

I understand your point of view. Understand though, there are enough people out there that disagree with your feelings to drive the price of bitcoin to the moon. That alone makes it worth getting some. That’s the investing philosophy made Jimmy Rogers rich.

Where are legit places to buyt this stuff? I keep hearing about mining. WTF does that mean?

[Ganuvanx]

Have fun with that.

Thank you for posting a photo of the inevitable end to every debt based fiat currency. That is the Reichsmark those kids are playing with after it went through hyperinflation. Bitcoin isn’t debt based. It can’t be inflated or devalued. It rewards savers as opposed to punishing them. Have a look at what the Federal Reserve is doing to the US dollar right now. The next photo might well be kids doing the same with US dollars.

[avxo]

I understand your point of view. Understand though, there are enough people out there that disagree with your feelings to drive the price of bitcoin to the moon. That alone makes it worth getting some. That’s the investing philosophy made Jimmy Rogers rich.

Right - I did say that it wasn't for me. If others want to buy Bitcoin, whether as a store of value or for investing or because they don't care for fiat currencies then more power to them.

I don't fall for the "so many others are doing it" argument though. Appeals to popularity are logical fallacies and I don't think that it's automatically wise to follow the crowd.

For me it boils down to how easy it is to acquire (moderately if you buy, practically impossible if you mine) and how well it's likely to function as a store of value (unclear in the long term, but ridiculously volatile in the short- and mid-term) and medium of exchange (somewhat useful within the community of Bitcoin enthusiasts but not widespread adoption as a form of payment).

You seem pretty familiar with the subject, so I have a question: Are there any alternatives to Bitcoin beyond the blatant copy-cats?

[The True Adonis]

Right - I did say that it wasn't for me. If others want to buy Bitcoin, whether as a store of value or for investing or because they don't care for fiat currencies then more power to them.

I don't fall for the "so many others are doing it" argument though. Appeals to popularity are logical fallacies and I don't think that it's automatically wise to follow the crowd.

For me it boils down to how easy it is to acquire (moderately if you buy, practically impossible if you mine) and how well it's likely to function as a store of value (unclear in the long term, but ridiculously volatile in the short- and mid-term) and medium of exchange (somewhat useful within the community of Bitcoin enthusiasts but not widespread adoption as a form of payment).

You seem pretty familiar with the subject, so I have a question: Are there any alternatives to Bitcoin beyond the blatant copy-cats?

This is probably my favorite Fiat, the Fiat 8V.


 Luckily the United States has decided to back their money with Fiats.

This one is also very valuable.  Probably have extra of this one at Fort Knox.  Another valuable one is this 8V.  

As long as the United States has an adequate supply of collector Fiats backing the currency, I see no reason for any panic.

[The Showstoppa]

This is probably my favorite Fiat, the Fiat 8V.


 Luckily the United States has decided to back their money with Fiats.

This one is also very valuable.  Probably have extra of this one at Fort Knox.  Another valuable one is this 8V.  

As long as the United States has an adequate supply of collector Fiats backing the currency, I see no reason for any panic.

 

[avxo]

This is probably my favorite Fiat, the Fiat 8V.  Luckily the United States has decided to back their money with Fiats.

This one is also very valuable.  Probably have extra of this one at Fort Knox.  Another valuable one is this 8V. 

As long as the United States has an adequate supply of collector Fiats backing the currency, I see no reason for any panic.

Unlike you I do not believe that every currency needs to be commodity-backed. If some people see value in Bitcoin, then that's fine by me; they will transact with those who also see value in Bitcoin. If they don't, they won't.

Inherently, I see no difference between a dollar bill (ink on paper) and a Bitcoin (numbers in a database) in that they're both fiat currencies. You can argue that the "full-faith and credit" of the United States Government means something and makes it better than Bitcoin. Perhaps that argument holds water, perhaps it doesn't. But that's, largely, irrelevant too.

Nobody is forcing you to buy or hold Bitcoin, at least as far as I can tell. So what's the problem here?

P.S.: That's a beautiful car.

[syntaxmachine]

Interestingly enough, I just checked one of my gold 1oz coins...and, yep, it weighs exactly the same as it did before Bitcoin crashed.  Can exchange it for around the same amount of goods too...weird.

You can exchange that gold for about a third less USD than you could on 1 Jan, and hence for about a third less goods. The bitcoin has increased 52x in value during the same period, growing steadily in logarthmic terms with no definite sign of a slowdown.

But don't let such facts interrupt your snide attempt to be a smarty pants non-conformist ("the Fed is evil, gold is real money, blah blah blah"). 

[Rami]

Where are legit places to buyt this stuff? I keep hearing about mining. WTF does that mean?

intel getting more rich is what it means

[The True Adonis]

Unlike you I do not believe that every currency needs to be commodity-backed. If some people see value in Bitcoin, then that's fine by me; they will transact with those who also see value in Bitcoin. If they don't, they won't.

Inherently, I see no difference between a dollar bill (ink on paper) and a Bitcoin (numbers in a database) in that they're both fiat currencies. You can argue that the "full-faith and credit" of the United States Government means something and makes it better than Bitcoin. Perhaps that argument holds water, perhaps it doesn't. But that's, largely, irrelevant too.

Nobody is forcing you to buy or hold Bitcoin, at least as far as I can tell. So what's the problem here?

P.S.: That's a beautiful car.

Damn right that is a beautiful car.  The United States Department of Treasury owns nearly all of them and they are restoring a few more.  Ever since the United States decided to go to the Fiat currency, its been nothing but smooth sailing.  Bitcoin doesn`t even have a virtual Fiat from Gran Turismo backing it up.  Thats how shitty it is.

Also, Fiat is building a special model for the United States this year and it will be stored at the Federal Reserve building.

[The True Adonis]

You can exchange that gold for about a third less USD than you could on 1 Jan, and hence for about a third less goods. The bitcoin has increased 52x in value during the same period, growing steadily in logarthmic terms with no definite sign of a slowdown.

But don't let such facts interrupt your snide attempt to be a smarty pants non-conformist ("the Fed is evil, gold is real money, blah blah blah"). 

ROFLMAO.

Which one of you is the greater non-conformist?

[Natural Man]

lots of clowns in this thread  who think they re professional economists cause they ve been reading zerohedge for a month lol...

[Ganuvanx]

Right - I did say that it wasn't for me. If others want to buy Bitcoin, whether as a store of value or for investing or because they don't care for fiat currencies then more power to them.

I don't fall for the "so many others are doing it" argument though. Appeals to popularity are logical fallacies and I don't think that it's automatically wise to follow the crowd.

For me it boils down to how easy it is to acquire (moderately if you buy, practically impossible if you mine) and how well it's likely to function as a store of value (unclear in the long term, but ridiculously volatile in the short- and mid-term) and medium of exchange (somewhat useful within the community of Bitcoin enthusiasts but not widespread adoption as a form of payment).

You seem pretty familiar with the subject, so I have a question: Are there any alternatives to Bitcoin beyond the blatant copy-cats?

There’s been talk of JP Morgan or some other entity making a crypto currency and forcing its use. The good news is it’s no threat to bitcoin. Bitcoin’s strength is peer-to-peer architecture as opposed a possible centralized currency created by JPM. JP Morgan would have a hard time convincing Germans that they must use Diamon Dollars or enforcing banking laws regarding the use of their currency in Russia. There are already company specific currencies being used out there like Air Miles. Amazon may have tried a company specific currency that didn’t do well. It’s the people accepting the medium of exchange that give it value. I equate this to the ingame currencies used in games like WoW. Incidentally, I made thousands of fiat dollars selling ingame currency to people in the early days of Everquest. One form of currency (US dollars) was being converted to another (ingame platinum) and the people using it in the game gave it its value. Bitcoin is worldwide, not country wide, store wide or game wide. It has the potential to goto unimaginable heights.

Liberty Reserve was a digital currency from a few years ago, shutdown/criminalized by the US government because the idea represented a threat to the US dollar. Bitcoin would have suffered the same fate if it was centralized. There are a lot of other crypto copycats out there right now like you say but at this point with the infrastructure already in place bitcoin will be the obvious winner ala facebook, youtube etc. Its open source so if it has to be tweaked, it can be. Some cryptos might play minor roles to bitcoin like Litecoin. One more thing, the people supporting bitcoin represent the brightest this world has. It will succeed and there’s nothing the US Gov’t. or Federal Reserve can do about it.

[Voice of Doom]

Thank you for posting a photo of the inevitable end to every debt based fiat currency. That is the Reichsmark those kids are playing with after it went through hyperinflation. Bitcoin isn’t debt based. It can’t be inflated or devalued. It rewards savers as opposed to punishing them. Have a look at what the Federal Reserve is doing to the US dollar right now. The next photo might well be kids doing the same with US dollars.

Actually, Bitcoin might not be as safe as many believe...not from an encryption standpoint but from a manipulation standpoint.  It could become regulated by .govs or made illegal which will distort its value and transactionalbility.  Since its a publicly traded commodity now an ETF could be built around it.  Paper ETFs heavily manipulate the markets by pumping/dumping, shorting, cornering, and front running.  It could also suffer from fraction reserve lending.  So now you have 10 pieces of paper BitCoin for every 1 "real" BitCoin.  This heavily favors the big market players.  It could also suffer crypto currency competition.  BitCoin is hard for the avg. person to understand.  Its based on complex mathematical algorithms while the average Joe flips burgers for a living.  How practical is transacting in 0.0000034% of a Bitcoin really going to be?  And it will require that type of everyday activity to get buy in as a competing currency.  Will Grandma and Grandpa understand the concepts or folks living outside the technological revolution of the last 15 years?
I respect the concept of BitCoin and suspect that concept will play a large role in the decentralization society is currently going through but as of now it remains a speculative investment with no historical context.

[Ganuvanx]

Where are legit places to buyt this stuff? I keep hearing about mining. WTF does that mean?

There are many online exchanges you can use to convert any quantity of any fiat currency to bitcoin. Mtgox is one of the largest based in Japan I believe. As for mining; in the early days of bitcoin, a home user could use a single computer and effectively mine bitcoin by solving a computer algorithm. The user was rewarded with blocks of bitcoin. Bitcoin is programmed to get progressively harder to mine using more elaborate set ups. At this point a single user can no longer effectively mine it. It’s easier just to convert US dollars to bitcoin. You can also buy bitcoin on ebay but it’s more expensive. The only people that buy it there are those that don’t have access to an online exchange for whatever the reasons.

[Wiggs]

There are many online exchanges you can use to convert any quantity of any fiat currency to bitcoin. Mtgox is one of the largest based in Japan I believe. As for mining; in the early days of bitcoin, a home user could use a single computer and effectively mine bitcoin by solving a computer algorithm. The user was rewarded with blocks of bitcoin. Bitcoin is programmed to get progressively harder to mine using more elaborate set ups. At this point a single user can no longer effectively mine it. It’s easier just to convert US dollars to bitcoin. You can also buy bitcoin on ebay but it’s more expensive. The only people that buy it there are those that don’t have access to an online exchange for whatever the reasons.

Thanks. Max Kaiser seems to agree with you about it going up to near 1 million fiat dollars for a bit coin. I couldn't imagine that but it's not like the dollar is going to be around much longer.

[HockeyFightFan]

Thanks. Max Kaiser seems to agree with you about it going up to near 1 million fiat dollars for a bit coin. I couldn't imagine that but it's not like the dollar is going to be around much longer.

Anyone else see the irony in Wiggs joining a discussion about money....

[syntaxmachine]

ROFLMAO.

Which one of you is the greater non-conformist?

My friend, though neckbeardianism -- a cluster of unsubstantiated beliefs that economists laugh at ("another crisis is imminent, imminent hyperinflation is around the corner, fiat money is dead") -- underwrites both support for gold and bitcoin, I am not a subscriber, and am therefore less non-comformist than Mr Doom.

[Ganuvanx]

Thanks. Max Kaiser seems to agree with you about it going up to near 1 million fiat dollars for a bit coin. I couldn't imagine that but it's not like the dollar is going to be around much longer.

He’s correct. The math is easy. Currently the market cap on bitcoin is only 10 billion dollars. That’s pocket change. To compare, the Federal Reserve is printing 85 billion dollars of new fiat digital paper per month. The market cap on bitcoin is worldwide. It could easily hit 1 trillion with little effort. At 1 trillion the value of a single full unit of bitcoin would be 50k. At that point I expect to see greater stability in the price. I also expect the eventual market cap to be way north of 1 trillion.

[syntaxmachine]

Yes, the price of converting fiat dollars to bitcoin dropped. The question is, are you smart enough to get in on it? The price dropped because the Chinese government hand-cuffed its citizens from converting to bitcoin, similar to them banning citizens from owning gold in the past. Meanwhile Denmark came out this week by stating it will put no restrictions on bitcoin. Germany has deemed it private money with no restrictions. China will come around eventually. Bitcoin isn’t a fad. It’s faster, safer, easier, cheaper and exponentially more powerful than any other currency. It is the logical evolution of currency. Its here to stay some might say with perfect timing. All debt based fiat currencies have a limited lifetime. The US dollar is at that limit. Overstock.com just announced they will be accepting bitcoin next year. Word on the street is Paypal, Amazon and Ebay will be accepting bitcoin in the not so distant future.  My prediction; over 1 million equivalent fiat units for one full unit of bitcoin. At that price bitcoin will be extremely stable. Nobody will be flipping it; they’ll be trading it for goods and services. There are some smart dudes on this board. Do your research but don’t take too long. Buy it. You haven't seen anything yet as to where the price is headed.

I've yet to see any firm numbers behind various claims of the bitcoin's future value. Can you direct me to any such analysis -- based on market cap, adoption rate, % used for transacting vs. mining, etc. -- to indicate that in fact, it is humanly possible for btcusd to go to $1 mil? That sounds like a very outlandish claim.

That you apparently subscribe to certain dubious propositions (e.g., that the Fed is significantly devaluing the USD -- even though inflation was a whopping 1.2% this year, with similarly low values for other QE years) that go against mainstream economic thought doesn't seem to help your case.

[The Showstoppa]

Can I pick one of these up when I go buy my purple drank and lottery ticket?

[galeniko]

how is the curent bitcoins wealth distributed?

go see.

no more questions.


ever heard of deflation?

ever informed on the issue how currencys are backed up, by what?

lol@where can i get bitcoins.but already believing in it.lol,this is good.

[Ganuvanx]

Nonbelievers listen to Gordon Gekko on the concept of wealth being explained to young Bud Fox in the movie Wall Street –
“Money is transferred from one perception to another”.
“The illusion has become real and the more real it becomes the more desperate they want it”.

Apply it to Bitcoin.

[Ganuvanx]

I've yet to see any firm numbers behind various claims of the bitcoin's future value. Can you direct me to any such analysis -- based on market cap, adoption rate, % used for transacting vs. mining, etc. -- to indicate that in fact, it is humanly possible for btcusd to go to $1 mil? That sounds like a very outlandish claim.

That you apparently subscribe to certain dubious propositions (e.g., that the Fed is significantly devaluing the USD -- even though inflation was a whopping 1.2% this year, with similarly low values for other QE years) that go against mainstream economic thought doesn't seem to help your case.

Bitcoin doesn’t rely on the inflation rate of the US dollar to increase in value. During the past year of official 1.2% inflation the price of bitcoin went from ~30 to as high as ~1200. It will continue to go up in value. In the event the dollar starts to unravel, beware. That's when the value of bitcoin will go higher than you can imagine. Below is a graph of the money supply directly from the Federal Reserve. All that digital currency they’re printing is going directly to the banks and subsequently invested into the markets. That’s why every stock index is at record levels. When the sell-off happens (and it will) all those dollars will be inflationary. I hope you’re diversified for protection. One great hedge is bitcoin. If you're intrested in adoption curves etc. please see the video I posted earlier. The dude in the video is quite logical.

[The True Adonis]

Bitcoin doesn’t rely on the inflation rate of the US dollar to increase in value. During the past year of official 1.2% inflation the price of bitcoin went from ~30 to as high as ~1200. It will continue to go up in value. In the event the dollar starts to unravel, beware. That's when the value of bitcoin will go higher than you can imagine. Below is a graph of the money supply directly from the Federal Reserve. All that digital currency they’re printing is going directly to the banks and subsequently invested into the markets. That’s why every stock index is at record levels. When the sell-off happens (and it will) all those dollars will be inflationary. I hope you’re diversified for protection. One great hedge is bitcoin. If you're intrested in adoption curves etc. please see the video I posted earlier. The dude in the video is quite logical.

Take your charts and shove them up your ass. Bitcoin just died.