Author Topic: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada  (Read 9245 times)

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #125 on: December 27, 2013, 06:36:59 PM »
WoW dude. Its not up to the pharmacist to decide if a person should have their medications or not. The woman not being on birrh control is irrelevant.  The pharmacist should be fired for not doinh her job

Even better, prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license.
It's not her place to decide what medications or controlled substances are appropriate for patients.
That's between a patient and their health care professional. Her job is to dispense medicine according to prescription, not to arbitrarily withhold prescriptions or prescribe herself. If she doesn't believe in a woman's right to prevent pregnancy, she's free to push out all the babies someone can impregnate her with, but she has no right to make those decisions for another woman's body.
w

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66395
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #126 on: December 27, 2013, 06:58:08 PM »
WoW dude. Its not up to the pharmacist to decide if a person should have their medications or not. The woman not being on birrh control is irrelevant.  The pharmacist should be fired for not doinh her job

The pharmacist doesn't decide what medications a person gets.  The pharmacist decides which medications (if any) the pharmacist does or doesn't personally dispense without violating the pharmacist's conscious and without interfering with the patient's access to the medication.  Really shouldn't be that complicated. 

Shockwave

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20807
  • Decepticons! Scramble!
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #127 on: December 27, 2013, 07:28:16 PM »
The pharmacist doesn't decide what medications a person gets.  The pharmacist decides which medications (if any) the pharmacist does or doesn't personally dispense without violating the pharmacist's conscious and without interfering with the patient's access to the medication.  Really shouldn't be that complicated. 
violating her conciense is no where in her job description.  Nk where is it said that a persons right to have a clear conscience while employed at a private company something that is constitutionally protected. She dodsnt have to distribute it, she could always quit if it bothered her thay much.

Thats akin to a Muslim refuses to sell someone pork at arbys because its against their conciense.  Not a protected right.  They dont have to sell them that on their own time, but while at work theyll obey their comoanies rules or theu can quit and then refuse to help the person.

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #128 on: December 27, 2013, 09:06:27 PM »
I see.  So in 2005, an unnamed woman in Wisconsin with six kids claimed she couldn't get an abortion pill, subsequently became pregnant, and had to have an abortion.  Sorry.  Not convinced.  As an aside, if she couldn't afford to have another baby, why the heck wasn't she using birth control??    

It was the first search result I hit while on my iPhone. Forgive me for not providing a complete history, especially since it's fairly trivial to actually find numerous such cases on respectable news sites. I could paste some more instances here, but my position is that even if one person is denied medication because of a pharmacist's "beliefs" that's one too many.


If pharmacists refuse to fill prescriptions, and this actually prevents women (or anyone else) from getting their medication, then that is obviously unacceptable.  Don't see that happening.

You don't see it happening despite a case that I posted, where it did actually happen... when's the last time you had your eyesight checked?


Fortunately, the free exercise of religion doesn't require a pharmacist to observe his or her faith only on their own time.

That's not how the First Amendment works. Again, the First Amendment protects the free exercise of religion from interference by government actors. The First Amendment does not mean that I - a private citizen - am required to let you freely exercise your religion in my house, or my business for that matter.

People whose "beliefs" and "religion" conflicts with the ability to dispense medications aren't qualified to be pharmacists anymore than people whose "beliefs" and "religion" conflicts with the use of technology are qualified to be software engineers.


That's not how the Civil Rights Act of 1964 works either.

You got me... not!

But really, nice try - I bet that this sort of "argument" - quoting statutes and waving your arms around - may amaze the people you typically debate with, who are left stunned by your legal expertise and frantic flailing, but it won't work on me. You see, I'm something of a legal dilettante. So let's dance, shall we?

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 mainly prohibits discrimination on the basis of certain factors from Governments and goverment agencies. It's true that there is Title II which deals with facilities which provide public accommodations and, using the authority of Congress to regulate interstate commerce, empowers the Federal Government to establish regulations for such facilities. So why doesn't this work here?

Well, given how expansively Courts have interpreted the Interstate Commerce Clause (rendering it effectively meaningless, but let's not worry about such things for now) it would seem like this clause could apply. HOWEVER - don't you hate it when I use that term? - it's unclear that it does. Let's carefully go over why that is: the law as written targetted hotels, motels, and generally, places of accomodation. It's unclear that a pharmacy qualifies under that standard. But let's not play hardball. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume, arguendo, that it is, indeed, a covered entity.

Game over, right?

Wrong.

Let's take a look at this PDF from the Government Printing Office. I have added emphasis and slightly snipped the text for clarity, but if you are curious, you may verify the accuracy of the language and the context:

Quote
It shall not be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to hire and employ employees [...] on the basis of his religion, sex, or national origin in those certain instances where religion, sex, or national origin is a bona fide occupational qualification reasonably necessary to the normal operation of that particular business [...]


Now, I don't know about you, but it seems pretty cut and dry that the ability and willingness to dispense medications in accordance with valid and legal prescriptions is not only reasonably necessary but mandatory to the normal operation of a pharmacy. Therefore, an employer who refuses to hire or fires a pharmacists who claims that their religion prevents them from dispensing some kinds of medications would not be discriminating for the purposes of Title II.

So, to recap: even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and concede that requiring a pharmacist to do their job was discriminatory and in violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 under Title II, that's not the end of the story, because we have 42 U.S.C. §2000e-2(e) which, quite explicitly, says otherwise.

Any questions?

Primemuscle

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 42306
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #129 on: December 27, 2013, 09:47:48 PM »
Which religions prohibit birth control other than Catholics?

I don't think homosexual marriage will limit population growth, because there aren't enough homosexuals in the country to make a significant difference.  

The Catholic church does not prohibit birth control.The Catholic Church is opposed to artificial contraception and orgasmic acts outside of the context of marital intercourse. This belief dates back to the first centuries of Christianity. Such acts are considered intrinsically disordered because of the belief that all licit sexual acts must be both unitive (express love), and procreative (open to procreation). The only form of birth control permitted is abstinence.

Ever since January 2012, when the Department of Health and Human Services issued guidelines requiring certain religious employers to provide contraception coverage on their group health insurance plans, evangelicals have stood with Catholics and other religious-liberty advocates against the HHS mandate.

Conservative Protestants have adopted Catholic positions on other sex-related issues. Perhaps it was only a matter of time until evangelical elites began pushing back against birth control.

Protestant attitudes concerning birth control. These are the "children in abundance" group, such as Quiverfull adherents who view all birth control and natural family planning as wrong; the "children in managed abundance" group, which accept only natural family planning.

The Qur'an does not make any explicit statements about the morality of contraception, but contains statements encouraging procreation. The prophet Muhammad also is reported to have said "marry and procreate".

Coitus interruptus, a primitive form of birth control, was a known practice at the time of Muhammad, and his companions engaged in it. Muhammad knew about this, but did not prohibit it.

Among Orthodox Judaism, use of birth control has been considered only acceptable for use in certain circumstances, for example, when the couple already has two children.

Homosexual marriage is not limited to the U.S. It is allowed in the following countries: England, Wales, France, Brazil, Uruguay, Denmark, New Zealand, Argentina, Portugal, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, South Africa, Spain, Canada, Belgium, The Netherlands (since 2000) and Mexico which like the U.S. only allows gay marriage in some regions.

I agree that gay marriage will probably not have much impact on population growth since gay people also procreate sometimes via the use of sperm donors and surrogate mothers.  

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #130 on: December 28, 2013, 06:43:56 AM »

The handful of pharmacists who don't want to fill prescriptions aren't forcing people not to get those prescriptions.  They simply don't want to do it themselves.  Another pharmacist can do it.  What's the big deal? 

 


They shouldn't have to go anywhere.  Pharmacists serve as gatekeepers for medication in our society, and that means that have to serve everybody in our society equally, regardless of their own beliefs.

If they can't, because of their personal beliefs, treat people equally, then they don't belong in that position.


24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #131 on: December 28, 2013, 07:24:55 AM »
What does all this have to do with what the Supreme Court of Canada did?

Talk about a giant collective case of ADHD.  ::)

The Supreme Court looked at the current set of laws surrounding prostitution, and concluded that as they existed, these laws were putting people in unnecessary danger. So they struck them down, and gave the Members of Parliament one year to come up with a new set of laws with regards to prostitution that didn't endanger people.

Prostitution in Canada is LEGAL, and was legal, at the time the Supreme Court struck down the laws SURROUNDING it.

Let me make an analogy:  

Holding a newborn baby is perfectly legal / (prostitution)

It is unlawful for a father to hand his newborn baby to its mother.  / (law surrounding prostitution)

It is unlawful for a mother to place her newborn in it's fathers arms / (law surrounding prostitution)

It is unlawful to pickup a baby / (law surrounding prostitution)

Providing sustenance to a newborn baby is perfectly legal. / (prostitution)

It is unlawful to place a bottle filled with baby formula in baby's mouth /  (law surrounding prostitution)

It is unlawful to place a mammary gland in baby's mouth / (law surrounding prostitution)

It is unlawful to place a bottle filled with water in baby's mouth / (law surrounding prostitution)

It is unlawful to... / (law surrounding prostitution)

It is unlawful to... / (law surrounding prostitution)

The Supreme Court looked at the present situation, and realized their convoluted bunch of laws surrounding what were essentially lawful activities were resulting in dysfunctional parenting. Fathers were hiking babies to their mothers like they were footballs, ...in some cases punting them, and mothers were nursing babies with fire hoses & fire hydrants. These were unnecessarily dangerous situations.

That said, ...what laws would you propose to ensure a legal activity was not made unnecessarily dangerous or exploitative for it's various participants?

ps: Save me the sanctimonious condemnation for putting a newborn baby in the same sentence as prostitution
w

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66395
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2013, 09:18:18 AM »
violating her conciense is no where in her job description.  Nk where is it said that a persons right to have a clear conscience while employed at a private company something that is constitutionally protected. She dodsnt have to distribute it, she could always quit if it bothered her thay much.

Thats akin to a Muslim refuses to sell someone pork at arbys because its against their conciense.  Not a protected right.  They dont have to sell them that on their own time, but while at work theyll obey their comoanies rules or theu can quit and then refuse to help the person.

It doesn't really work that way.  If someone works for a private company and has a sincerely held religious belief, the employer has an obligation to try and accommodate the employee, unless it would create an undue hardship.  So no, a person who wants to listen to his or her conscience doesn't have to toe the line or quit. 

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66395
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #133 on: December 30, 2013, 09:36:37 AM »
It was the first search result I hit while on my iPhone. Forgive me for not providing a complete history, especially since it's fairly trivial to actually find numerous such cases on respectable news sites. I could paste some more instances here, but my position is that even if one person is denied medication because of a pharmacist's "beliefs" that's one too many.


You don't see it happening despite a case that I posted, where it did actually happen... when's the last time you had your eyesight checked?


That's not how the First Amendment works. Again, the First Amendment protects the free exercise of religion from interference by government actors. The First Amendment does not mean that I - a private citizen - am required to let you freely exercise your religion in my house, or my business for that matter.

People whose "beliefs" and "religion" conflicts with the ability to dispense medications aren't qualified to be pharmacists anymore than people whose "beliefs" and "religion" conflicts with the use of technology are qualified to be software engineers.


You got me... not!

But really, nice try - I bet that this sort of "argument" - quoting statutes and waving your arms around - may amaze the people you typically debate with, who are left stunned by your legal expertise and frantic flailing, but it won't work on me. You see, I'm something of a legal dilettante. So let's dance, shall we?

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 mainly prohibits discrimination on the basis of certain factors from Governments and goverment agencies. It's true that there is Title II which deals with facilities which provide public accommodations and, using the authority of Congress to regulate interstate commerce, empowers the Federal Government to establish regulations for such facilities. So why doesn't this work here?

Well, given how expansively Courts have interpreted the Interstate Commerce Clause (rendering it effectively meaningless, but let's not worry about such things for now) it would seem like this clause could apply. HOWEVER - don't you hate it when I use that term? - it's unclear that it does. Let's carefully go over why that is: the law as written targetted hotels, motels, and generally, places of accomodation. It's unclear that a pharmacy qualifies under that standard. But let's not play hardball. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and assume, arguendo, that it is, indeed, a covered entity.

Game over, right?

Wrong.

Let's take a look at this PDF from the Government Printing Office. I have added emphasis and slightly snipped the text for clarity, but if you are curious, you may verify the accuracy of the language and the context:
 

Now, I don't know about you, but it seems pretty cut and dry that the ability and willingness to dispense medications in accordance with valid and legal prescriptions is not only reasonably necessary but mandatory to the normal operation of a pharmacy. Therefore, an employer who refuses to hire or fires a pharmacists who claims that their religion prevents them from dispensing some kinds of medications would not be discriminating for the purposes of Title II.

So, to recap: even if we give you the benefit of the doubt and concede that requiring a pharmacist to do their job was discriminatory and in violation of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 under Title II, that's not the end of the story, because we have 42 U.S.C. §2000e-2(e) which, quite explicitly, says otherwise.

Any questions?

Yes, I have one question:  do you often put so much time and effort into making a fool of yourself? 

Here are the problems with your Google "research." 

1.  Pharmacists are regulated by the government.  So yes, the First Amendment does apply.   

2.  I can use Google too.  Took me about sixty seconds to find this opinion.  http://www.scribd.com/doc/82482561/Plan-B-Decision   Took me another few minutes to skim it.  This judge ruled that regulations requiring pharmacists to dispense the abortion pill are a violation of the First Amendment, just like I indicated.  You'll have to forgive me if I take the analysis of this federal judge over some keyboard warrior on the internet, who is a self proclaimed "legal dilettante."  LOL!  (That's really funny.)   :)

3.  Regarding your Title VII stuff, I've actually been interviewing, hiring, managing, and firing employees for a long time, so I have to be aware of what I can and cannot do as an employer.  What I know is I have to reasonably accommodate an employee's sincerely held religious beliefs, unless that accommodation would create an undue hardship on my business.  So yes, in addition to the First Amendment, I think Title VII does apply. 

4.  Pharmacists are not required to dispense all kinds of medications.  They can refuse to dispense medications for a variety of reasons, including the cost, refusing to accept various forms of insurance, avoiding risky drugs, etc. 

Class dismissed.  You are sentenced to 1 hour of additional Google remedial research training. 

Dago_Joe

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 997
  • Better to look good than to feel good: ALWAYS
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2013, 09:42:42 AM »
Yes, I have one question:  do you often put so much time and effort into making a fool of yourself? 

Here are the problems with your Google "research." 

1.  Pharmacists are regulated by the government.  So yes, the First Amendment does apply.   

2.  I can use Google too.  Took me about sixty seconds to find this opinion.  http://www.scribd.com/doc/82482561/Plan-B-Decision   Took me another few minutes to skim it.  This judge ruled that regulations requiring pharmacists to dispense the abortion pill are a violation of the First Amendment, just like I indicated.  You'll have to forgive me if I take the analysis of this federal judge over some keyboard warrior on the internet, who is a self proclaimed "legal dilettante."  LOL!  (That's really funny.)   :)

3.  Regarding your Title VII stuff, I've actually been interviewing, hiring, managing, and firing employees for a long time, so I have to be aware of what I can and cannot do as an employer.  What I know is I have to reasonably accommodate an employee's sincerely held religious beliefs, unless that accommodation would create an undue hardship on my business.  So yes, in addition to the First Amendment, I think Title VII does apply. 

4.  Pharmacists are not required to dispense all kinds of medications.  They can refuse to dispense medications for a variety of reasons, including the cost, refusing to accept various forms of insurance, avoiding risky drugs, etc. 

Class dismissed.  You are sentenced to 1 hour of additional Google remedial research training. 

Totally correct!  And to simplify it a little more:  A muslim working at arby's is not even close to a pharmacist having to dispense a drug that is INTENDED TO KILL A BABY!!!  How could you even possibly compare the two?  Yeah yeah i get it they view pork as dirty, but you are insane if you equate touching ham to killing a baby.  Sick.

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66395
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #135 on: December 30, 2013, 09:46:49 AM »
Totally correct!  And to simplify it a little more:  A muslim working at arby's is not even close to a pharmacist having to dispense a drug that is INTENDED TO KILL A BABY!!!  How could you even possibly compare the two?  Yeah yeah i get it they view pork as dirty, but you are insane if you equate touching ham to killing a baby.  Sick.

I don't think there is much of a comparison either. 

Dos Equis

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66395
  • I am. The most interesting man in the world. (Not)
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #136 on: December 30, 2013, 10:32:35 AM »
The Catholic church does not prohibit birth control.The Catholic Church is opposed to artificial contraception and orgasmic acts outside of the context of marital intercourse. This belief dates back to the first centuries of Christianity. Such acts are considered intrinsically disordered because of the belief that all licit sexual acts must be both unitive (express love), and procreative (open to procreation). The only form of birth control permitted is abstinence.

Ever since January 2012, when the Department of Health and Human Services issued guidelines requiring certain religious employers to provide contraception coverage on their group health insurance plans, evangelicals have stood with Catholics and other religious-liberty advocates against the HHS mandate.

Conservative Protestants have adopted Catholic positions on other sex-related issues. Perhaps it was only a matter of time until evangelical elites began pushing back against birth control.

Protestant attitudes concerning birth control. These are the "children in abundance" group, such as Quiverfull adherents who view all birth control and natural family planning as wrong; the "children in managed abundance" group, which accept only natural family planning.

The Qur'an does not make any explicit statements about the morality of contraception, but contains statements encouraging procreation. The prophet Muhammad also is reported to have said "marry and procreate".

Coitus interruptus, a primitive form of birth control, was a known practice at the time of Muhammad, and his companions engaged in it. Muhammad knew about this, but did not prohibit it.

Among Orthodox Judaism, use of birth control has been considered only acceptable for use in certain circumstances, for example, when the couple already has two children.

Homosexual marriage is not limited to the U.S. It is allowed in the following countries: England, Wales, France, Brazil, Uruguay, Denmark, New Zealand, Argentina, Portugal, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, South Africa, Spain, Canada, Belgium, The Netherlands (since 2000) and Mexico which like the U.S. only allows gay marriage in some regions.

I agree that gay marriage will probably not have much impact on population growth since gay people also procreate sometimes via the use of sperm donors and surrogate mothers.  

If you're going to cut and paste from other sources, shouldn't you use quotation marks, or at least provide a link so it doesn't appear as though you  are passing this off as your own writing? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_birth_control

Shockwave

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20807
  • Decepticons! Scramble!
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #137 on: December 30, 2013, 11:43:06 AM »
I don't think there is much of a comparison either. 
of course you dont. Its not like theyre both deeply held religious beliefs or anything.

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #138 on: December 30, 2013, 05:41:58 PM »
Yes, I have one question:  do you often put so much time and effort into making a fool of yourself? 

Your question assumes facts not in evidence.


Here are the problems with your Google "research." 

Oh goody... some nudnik on the Internet is going to tell me what my problems are.


1.  Pharmacists are regulated by the government.  So yes, the First Amendment does apply.

No, that's not how it works. What First Amendment protected interest, specifically, is being infringed by government regulation of pharmacists if the company that owns a pharmacy chooses to fire a pharmacist who refuses to dispense medication?


2.  I can use Google too.  Took me about sixty seconds to find this opinion.  http://www.scribd.com/doc/82482561/Plan-B-Decision   Took me another few minutes to skim it.  This judge ruled that regulations requiring pharmacists to dispense the abortion pill are a violation of the First Amendment, just like I indicated.  You'll have to forgive me if I take the analysis of this federal judge over some keyboard warrior on the internet, who is a self proclaimed "legal dilettante."  LOL!  (That's really funny.)   :)

Let's start from the bottom: of course the analysis of a Federal Judge carries more weight than what I write on legal issues. I never disputed this, nor did I claim otherwise. Now, onwards:

Stormans v. Selecky, a great case, but it's not quite as cut-and-dry as you make it. The most important thing about the case, in this instance, isn't the decision though. The most important thing is that you twisted what I said. It's possible that regulation by the State requiring pharmacists to dispense a particular medication may have First Amendment implications. But I said nothing about Government regulations. I said that a pharmacist who refuses to dispense an prescription on the grounds of his religious beliefs, doesn't have a claim against his employer under the First Amendment since the First Amendment bars the Government, not private individuals. I also said that the claim would be likely to fail based on exceptions explicitly listed in the Civil Rights Act.

Nothing in this case changes any of that.  Stormans v. Selecky is about a regulation by the Pharmacy Board, a Government agency, promulgating a rule requiring pharmacists to dispense Plan B.

Apples and Oranges.


Now, since it's interesting, let's talk about that decision a bit too, shall we?

You will note that (a) the Fourteenth Amendment claim that they pharmacists make was rejected (at least for the time being) by the Court, and quite strongly. You will also note that (b) the Court, when conducting its analysis, had this to say about First Amendment concerns (internal quotations omitted):

Quote
While the Free Exercise Clause immunizes religious beliefs themselves, the Clause obviously cannot and does not bar regulation of all religiously-based conduct. Indeed, the Supreme Court has “never held that an individual’s religious beliefs excuse him from complying with an otherwise valid law prohibiting conduct that a State is free to regulate.” To do otherwise would “permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.”

Consistently with precedent, the Court recognizes that laws can ban some religious conduct without violating the First Amendment. The Court then turns to the question of whether the law/regulation in question does or not. A primary concern voiced by the Court (and, really, the deciding factor) is that the law provides certain kinds of exemptions for secular reasons but not for religious reasons. I don't necessarily agree with the Court's analysis, but there is certainly merit to this argument.

[Before we go on, it's important to note that I am a libertarian; I do not believe that the Government should be able to force a pharmacy to carry a particular medication or, for that matter, to dispense it. I have faith that the market will deal with businesses which don't respond to the needs of the community that they operate in.]

With that said, I don't agree with the conclusion that a rule requiring a pharmacist to dispense a medicine that is in stock and for which there are no business reasons to not complete the transaction can or should violate the pharmacists' First Amendment rights. I believe that if you cannot dispense medications because of your personal beliefs you shouldn't be a pharmacist. And I certainly don't agree that pharmacists have the "freedom" to not only refuse to dispense a prescription, but to withhold it effectively prevent a person from receiving the prescribed medication from another pharmacist.

Now et's consider a somewhat more extreme example: You do know that doctors and nurses are required to render emergency aid and failure to do so will (almost always) cost them their license, right? So what about a doctor who witnesses a man suffering from some acute emergency but does nothing to help on the grounds that his religious beliefs prevent him from helping the man on account of his, for example, sexual orientation? Would a doctor who lost his license because of failing to render aid have a case on First Amendment grounds?

"But," you might say, "that's an emergency. Other rules apply there." Well, ok. What about an insurance adjuster who refuses to authorize radiation treatment for someone because he sincerely believes that prayer will make the cancer go away and if the man really believed he'd be saved?

So the question that we must ask: are regulations that require people who are engaged in certain professions to behave professionally violating their First Amendment rights? It's tricky to answer and the best we can do is: "well maybe."

The Court struggles with this very question and it's the quintessence of the issue debated in Stormans v. Selecky. It's certainly an interesting decision, but the fat lady hasn't sung yet. The case is on appeals as we speak and will, almost certainly, go all the way up to the Supreme Court should the 9th Circuit Court upholds the decision in panel and in an en banc session.

But again, this is a different topic. Remember, my original point was that the pharmacists First Amendment rights cannot be violated by their employer who can require them to dispense a medication and can fire them for failure to do so while remaining shielded from Civil Rights Act violations under 42 U.S.C. §2000e-2(e).
 

3.  Regarding your Title VII stuff, I've actually been interviewing, hiring, managing, and firing employees for a long time, so I have to be aware of what I can and cannot do as an employer.

Great. So, you were aware of the bona fide occupational qualification exception?


What I know is I have to reasonably accommodate an employee's sincerely held religious beliefs, unless that accommodation would create an undue hardship on my business.  So yes, in addition to the First Amendment, I think Title VII does apply. 

Yes, you do have to accommodate practices that don't create an undue hardship on your business. But you can do more than that. There are cases where you can make a decision based on factors that would, under other circumstances, be illegal to consider, where those factors are reasonably necessary to the normal operation of your business.

I would argue that a pharmacy firing a pharmacist who refuses to dispense certain medication on the grounds of his religious beliefs is allowed. After all, dispensing medication is reasonably necessary to the normal operation of a pharmacy. Do you disagree?


4.  Pharmacists are not required to dispense all kinds of medications.  They can refuse to dispense medications for a variety of reasons, including the cost, refusing to accept various forms of insurance, avoiding risky drugs, etc. 

This is a bit of a disingenuous argument. Of course pharmacists aren't required to dispense medications to people who can't pay or which the pharmacy doesn't choose to stock. They can also refuse to dispense medications if they have a good faith belief the medication will be abused or the prescription was fraudulently obtained. The question is do pharmacists have a right to prohibit someone from receiving medications not only by refusing to fill a prescription but by confiscating the prescription and refusing to return it.
 

Class dismissed.  You are sentenced to 1 hour of additional Google remedial research training.

Dismissed? I don't think so. I hope you took notes though, there will be a test.

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #139 on: December 30, 2013, 05:49:47 PM »
Totally correct!  And to simplify it a little more:  A muslim working at arby's is not even close to a pharmacist having to dispense a drug that is INTENDED TO KILL A BABY!!!  How could you even possibly compare the two?  Yeah yeah i get it they view pork as dirty, but you are insane if you equate touching ham to killing a baby.  Sick.

You do realize that Plan B doesn't kill a baby, right? It's taken at most 5 days after sex. At that point there's no baby, or a fetus. There may be a fertilized ovum - I say maybe because fertilization isn't instant and can happen up to five days after sex. But even if fertilization has taken place, at five days, you have a clump of at most a couple of dozen cells that haven't even implanted in the womb. And you do know what "Plan B" does and how it operates right? I'm just asking, because the "INTENDED TO KILL A BABY" histrionics make me suspect that you don't.

And, beyond that, why not compare these things? Because you think that some religious beliefs more important than others? How do you weight belief X vs. belief Y. Assume, for the sake of argument, that a person tells you that his beliefs dictate that touching pork will cause him to lose all possibility of salvation, and he will be sentenced to hell and unending torment for all eternity. Why do you dismiss and minimize that belief? Because it doesn't jibe with your own?

Even if you minimize and dismiss some beliefs (as you obviously do) please ask yourself one question: do I really want the State deciding which beliefs are important and which aren't? Think carefully, because if you answer yes you may find yourself in the unenviable position of having your beliefs minimized and dismissed. And something tells me your God won't help you then.

Dago_Joe

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 997
  • Better to look good than to feel good: ALWAYS
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #140 on: December 30, 2013, 07:15:31 PM »
You do realize that Plan B doesn't kill a baby, right? It's taken at most 5 days after sex. At that point there's no baby, or a fetus. There may be a fertilized ovum - I say maybe because fertilization isn't instant and can happen up to five days after sex. But even if fertilization has taken place, at five days, you have a clump of at most a couple of dozen cells that haven't even implanted in the womb. And you do know what "Plan B" does and how it operates right? I'm just asking, because the "INTENDED TO KILL A BABY" histrionics make me suspect that you don't.

And, beyond that, why not compare these things? Because you think that some religious beliefs more important than others? How do you weight belief X vs. belief Y. Assume, for the sake of argument, that a person tells you that his beliefs dictate that touching pork will cause him to lose all possibility of salvation, and he will be sentenced to hell and unending torment for all eternity. Why do you dismiss and minimize that belief? Because it doesn't jibe with your own?

Even if you minimize and dismiss some beliefs (as you obviously do) please ask yourself one question: do I really want the State deciding which beliefs are important and which aren't? Think carefully, because if you answer yes you may find yourself in the unenviable position of having your beliefs minimized and dismissed. And something tells me your God won't help you then.

This is where the crux of the argument lies.  I totally disagree.  Do you understand my point now?  And yes I fully understand and know what Plan B is.  The bolded statement is where you and I will never agree.

And why do you vehemently defend anyone other than christians?  You seem so hell bent on standing up for a muslims right to refuse to touch pork, but are totally opposed to christians who are against abortion.  Mock my faith all you want, I know what is right and wrong.  Equivocating and making everything shades of grey does nothing but divide societies. 

Shockwave

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 20807
  • Decepticons! Scramble!
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #141 on: December 30, 2013, 07:37:36 PM »
This is where the crux of the argument lies.  I totally disagree.  Do you understand my point now?  And yes I fully understand and know what Plan B is.  The bolded statement is where you and I will never agree.

And why do you vehemently defend anyone other than christians?  You seem so hell bent on standing up for a muslims right to refuse to touch pork, but are totally opposed to christians who are against abortion.  Mock my faith all you want, I know what is right and wrong.  Equivocating and making everything shades of grey does nothing but divide societies. 

I agree with you on most everything bro, but disagree here.
If a woman has a right under freedom of religion to not give a customer plan B, then there is no reason a Muslim should be forced to serve Pork against his will.. either you protect all religions equally or you protect none.

avxo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5647
  • Iron Pumping University Math Professor
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #142 on: December 30, 2013, 08:16:28 PM »
This is where the crux of the argument lies.  I totally disagree.  Do you understand my point now?  And yes I fully understand and know what Plan B is.  The bolded statement is where you and I will never agree.

You disagree with what? That there's a clump of a few dozen cells after five days in the best scenario? You do realize that objective reality is not subject to your agreement. We are talking about processes that can be observed. The fertilized ovum is not even in the womb by the 5th day - it's still inside the Fallopian tubes - and it's made up of less than two or three dozen cells.

We can discuss/debate whether that cluster of cells is a human being or should be considered as such if you want, but that's an entirely different issue.


And why do you vehemently defend anyone other than christians?

You are either not serious or seriously confused. I don't "defend anyone other than Christians." In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a single post of mine where I defend any religion. I find them all ridiculous and my posting history proves it. If you think I have a bias against Christians you are wrong.


You seem so hell bent on standing up for a muslims right to refuse to touch pork, but are totally opposed to christians who are against abortion.

I was merely continuing the example you quoted, which I seem to recall someone else used before you. And please notice two important things: First, I carefully removed any references to any particular religion. Second, that I used this example to caution you against fostering a society where beliefs are "weighted" and "ranked" because when you end up with a government that minimizes and dismisses beliefs (even if at this moment the beliefs being minimized and dismissed are those you disagree with) soon enough the scales would tip and you'd find those things that you believe in being minimized and dismissed.

This broader point has nothing to do with being Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Rastafarian or whathaveyou. Particular beliefs are irrelevant to the point I was making.


Mock my faith all you want, I know what is right and wrong.  Equivocating and making everything shades of grey does nothing but divide societies.

Don't be offended. For one thing, I'm an equal opportunity mocker. For another thing, I may be an atheist and I may find all religions to be irrational and stupid, but I don't presume to tell others what they should or shouldn't believe. If you have been convinced, to your satisfaction, that there is a God, I'm cool with that. If you don't bother me, I won't bother you. If you don't mention your beliefs to me, I won't ask, discuss with and/or mock you about them.

You say that shades of gray divide. Perhaps that is the case. But don't black and white also divide? You claim to know what is right and what is wrong. That's great, and maybe you really do. But the question is can you put your knowledge in the form of a rule or rules that allow the rest of us, who don't know, to rationally examine a situation and decide whether something is, indeed, right or wrong? I'm betting that the answer is no.

What's more, I'm betting that you don't know what's right or wrong with the certainty that you think you do. Is it right or wrong for a young girl that is raped by her Father to seek to prevent the possibility of pregnancy? Is it right or wrong for a pharmacist to deny this girl access to emergency contraception? Is it right or wrong that this girl may become pregnant and end up giving birth to her own brother because of other people's decisions and actions?

After you ponder those questions for a bit, then come back to me and tell me again how you know what's wrong or right. I'm really curious to hear what you'll have to say.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #143 on: December 30, 2013, 08:47:50 PM »
AV youre a good poster bro but you gotta start summarizing your shit

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #144 on: December 31, 2013, 03:23:44 AM »
You say that shades of gray divide. Perhaps that is the case. But don't black and white also divide? You claim to know what is right and what is wrong. That's great, and maybe you really do. But the question is can you put your knowledge in the form of a rule or rules that allow the rest of us, who don't know, to rationally examine a situation and decide whether something is, indeed, right or wrong? I'm betting that the answer is no.

What's more, I'm betting that you don't know what's right or wrong with the certainty that you think you do. Is it right or wrong for a young girl that is raped by her Father to seek to prevent the possibility of pregnancy? Is it right or wrong for a pharmacist to deny this girl access to emergency contraception? Is it right or wrong that this girl may become pregnant and end up giving birth to her own brother because of other people's decisions and actions?

After you ponder those questions for a bit, then come back to me and tell me again how you know what's wrong or right. I'm really curious to hear what you'll have to say.

Very thoughtful response.
w

RRKore

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Prostitution to be legalized in Canada
« Reply #145 on: December 31, 2013, 10:39:02 AM »
of course you dont. Its not like theyre both deeply held religious beliefs or anything.

lol