t3 experinces

[chetanbarokar]

Yup, its a great safe tool and at 25-50 mcg u can use it all year long, I do myself. Honestly I did an 8 wk prep, dropped 15lbs total(I stay lean offseason) and kept calories at 3500 the entire time, only did a slight deplete to 200g carbs for 2 days and slight carb up. At 8 wks i just bumped tren, bumped ephedrine, added letro and halo at 3 wks out, had T3 in all offseason and dose didn't change.

When you experienced muscle loss at 100mcg, how much gear were you running?
Do you think this muscle loss could have been avoided on higher AAS dosages?

[Nasty Nate]

When you experienced muscle loss at 100mcg, how much gear were you running?
Do you think this muscle loss could have been avoided on higher AAS dosages?

no, its a caloric deficit + t3 overdose.

[chetanbarokar]

no, its a caloric deficit + t3 overdose.

So lets say one is running 1gm test E/week along with 100mcg t3/day.....do you think he'll still have some muscle loss? I think not.

[Marlo Stanfield]

So lets say one is running 1gm test E/week along with 100mcg t3/day.....do you think he'll still have some muscle loss? I think not.

Dont make a big deal out of AAS. Its not that if you have AAS in your body you will absolutely never lose any muscle mass. If you take 1000Mg a week and starve yourself for 2 weeks, you will lose WEIGHT.

If you're on ASS, lets say only 20% of that WEIGHT loss is muscle, whereas if you're natural, 50% of that WEIGHT lost is muscle. I pulled those percentages out of my ass though, just using it as an example

So yes, you can lose MUSCLE while on AAS.

[Nasty Nate]

So lets say one is running 1gm test E/week along with 100mcg t3/day.....do you think he'll still have some muscle loss? I think not.

No you'd just have to eat a lot more food, or else you would. And for me personally, yes I'd wake up flat and in a bigger deficit because ive ran that T3 with various test doses to experiment. For me personally im lean all year round but the look I have when I wake up on 100mcg is like I need to eat a few hundred grams of carbs immediately, veins not as prominent until I get a lot of food in, and the scale is much lighter because my body burns through food even if I eat right before bed. T3 is individual to the bodyweight, the more you weigh the more you can take. An obese female was telling me she's prescribed 200mcg per day and she's huge.

[SamoanIrishman]

so which to you guys find more effective T3 or T4?

[galeniko]

t3 is much much much stronger lol.

[chetanbarokar]

t3 is much much much stronger lol.

One question in this regards:

T3 range ng/dl:       60 - 180
My normal t3 value: 67
Me @ 50mcg/day:    79
Me @ 100mcg/day:  150

In this situation, do you think I shall suffer muscle loss? On 1gm test/week?

[Marlo Stanfield]

One question in this regards:

T3 range ng/dl:       60 - 180
My normal t3 value: 67
Me @ 50mcg/day:    79
Me @ 100mcg/day:  150

In this situation, do you think I shall suffer muscle loss? On 1gm test/week?

Your too strung up on the gear. Gear is only part of the solution. The other part of the solution is you calories in. 1G of test enable you to lose "minimal" muscle compared to a natty. if you keep your protein intake high, you will lose minimal muscle.

[CycleJunkie]

t3 is much much much stronger lol.

It isn't necessarily just that it is stronger, but rather T4 is the precursor to T3 in the body.  There is a conversion that takes place in specialized cells within the body which is why it doesn't make a lot of sense to not use the exogenous T3 hormone as you are saving the body from having to do this conversion.

I've seen folks argue that T4 becomes more important as you begin to get into higher levels of HGH usage however I have no direct HGH experience and cannot comment on this...

[chetanbarokar]

Your too strung up on the gear. Gear is only part of the solution. The other part of the solution is you calories in. 1G of test enable you to lose "minimal" muscle compared to a natty. if you keep your protein intake high, you will lose minimal muscle.

My point is that if one's t3 value is still within normal range @ 100mcg/day, would it still cause muscle loss?
If the value is over 180ng/dl, and one is clearly hyperthyroid, I can see muscle loss for sure.
May be I am missing something in the picture.

Another tangent, loss of strength and reduction in poundages during workouts can be an important indicator of muscle loss.
What if one can feel and look flat as all hell...but still his strength is intact and poundages are maintained?
This tells us that he is not suffering from muscle loss but only glycogen depletion and thus flat look.

[CycleJunkie]

The "T3 causes catabolism" sentiment is one that is vastly exaggerated on AAS boards.  To have this occur at any reasonable amount would require absurd levels of exogenous T3 and/or an absolutely horrendous dietary design...

[chetanbarokar]

It isn't necessarily just that it is stronger, but rather T4 is the precursor to T3 in the body.  There is a conversion that takes place in specialized cells within the body which is why it doesn't make a lot of sense to not use the exogenous T3 hormone as you are saving the body from having to do this conversion.

I've seen folks argue that T4 becomes more important as you begin to get into higher levels of HGH usage however I have no direct HGH experience and cannot comment on this...

T4 to T3 conversion is impaired during dieting especially low carb dieting. You may have heard/read about euthyroid sick syndrome.
In this situation, exogenous t3 can be proven beneficial as you wrote.
Either to up the t3 levels to the normal value which body is not producing anymore due to dieting....or to up it to above normal to get metabolic boost.

[CycleJunkie]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049579902063#

To close the loop on the catabolism discussions, this study shows that even in non AAS users up to 60mcgs/day of exogenous T3 produced no statistically significant amount of catabolism as compared to those who were not using.

If you add AAS into the picture, then this will be even less of an issue since most of us use between 50-75mcgs/day.

[chetanbarokar]

The "T3 causes catabolism" sentiment is one that is vastly exaggerated on AAS boards.  To have this occur at any reasonable amount would require absurd levels of exogenous T3 and/or an absolutely horrendous dietary design...

I agree. And this is quite surprising really.
In this regards, there was a member Buselmo (apparently knowledgeable and acknowledged by few other experienced members) who used to post on getbig but stopped dont know why....his post is interesting.

{Buselmo wrote:

T3 eats up muscle? LOL!
when you lose 10 lbs of sub-q water, and 10 lbs of glycogen... and your neck looks thinner (which is what most people notice immediately and start telling you you lost a lot of weight) THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU LOST MUSCLE!!!!

look... here's something you should do... get off the sauce... for a couple of muscle... look at how shitty you start looking... once you get skinny, pile on fat in the wrong places, and lose muscle... get on a ton of T3 and some juice... and look at what happens... then you can assess what it does!

NEVER JUDGE IF YOU LOST MUSCLE BY IF YOU LOST FUCKING WATER!

180 mcg T3, 240 mcg Clen, 90 mg ephedrine and i gained fucking muscle...

2 days after going off the T3, clen, and ephedrine and loading up on carbs... i gained a good fucking 16 lbs and was the biggest I ever was at this body fat.

the problem with assessing if T3 makes you loss muscle or not is that when you're a blowfish and are holding so much water your sock marks last for a month... you go on the thermos and especially T3 and lose a lot of water and start burning up Glycogen like a mother fucker... you look flatter, you lose fullness, but you lean out like fuck... when you're on T3 and you think you're losing muscle, don't you notice that your muscles turn into rocks when you flex them? instead just being "pumped and bloated"?


T3 doesn't make you lose muscle... i don't care what anyone says...
I used to think that, and i'd "see it" happen when i was on 50 mcg T3 and i start panicing... it was all bullshit... it's not muscle, it's glycogen and water. once i got that through my thick head and said "so fucking what if i look just a little thinner? i don't give a shit"... a couple of months later, I was as lean as fuck and i gained muscle. so don't give me that shit that T3 makes you lose muscle... and don't tell me the usual "ppl are different"... It's not a coincidence that i used to "lose muscle" when i listened to this shit and believed it, and fucking gained muscle when i said "fuck it... it's bullshit"
}

[CycleJunkie]

T4 to T3 conversion is impaired during dieting especially low carb dieting. You may have heard/read about euthyroid sick syndrome.
In this situation, exogenous t3 can be proven beneficial as you wrote.
Either to up the t3 levels to the normal value which body is not producing anymore due to dieting....or to up it to above normal to get metabolic boost.

Oddly enough, I've found that physicians regularly prescribe exogenous T4 as opposed to T3 in situations when patients show signs of hypothyroidism.  They prescribe a dose just large enough to get TSH into range and consider it good as long as all thyroid panels are "in range".

I'm working with someone now who had this very thing happen to them but we are theorizing that their conversion to T3 is not working well (even though serum numbers are "in range yet low") and will be starting T3 soon to see if this alleviates some of the "issues" they have...

[chetanbarokar]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0026049579902063#

To close the loop on the catabolism discussions, this study shows that even in non AAS users up to 60mcgs/day of exogenous T3 produced no statistically significant amount of catabolism as compared to those who were not using.

If you add AAS into the picture, then this will be even less of an issue since most of us use between 50-75mcgs/day.

Sorry mate...but this study concluded:

These observations suggest that: (1) skeletal muscle catabolism decreases during fasting; and (2) pathophysiologic doses of T3 (60 μg/day or more), but not reverse T3, enhance muscle catabolism during fasting.

Have I misinterpreted something?

[CycleJunkie]

Note that it took doses of 60mcgs/day or more to produce statistically significant amounts of muscle catabolism in non-trained, non AAS users...

Since most of us are bodybuilders using AAS, I think it is a safe bet that if we are using less than 60mcgs/day of T3 then there would be little to no chance of muscle catabolism since it didn't occur in these study subjects who are our polar opposite...

[chetanbarokar]

Note that it took doses of 60mcgs/day or more to produce statistically significant amounts of muscle catabolism in non-trained, non AAS users...

Since most of us are bodybuilders using AAS, I think it is a safe bet that if we are using less than 60mcgs/day of T3 then there would be little to no chance of muscle catabolism since it didn't occur in these study subjects who are our polar opposite...

That makes sense. Thanks.

[chetanbarokar]

Oddly enough, I've found that physicians regularly prescribe exogenous T4 as opposed to T3 in situations when patients show signs of hypothyroidism.  They prescribe a dose just large enough to get TSH into range and consider it good as long as all thyroid panels are "in range".

I'm working with someone now who had this very thing happen to them but we are theorizing that their conversion to T3 is not working well (even though serum numbers are "in range yet low") and will be starting T3 soon to see if this alleviates some of the "issues" they have...

Yes...t4 prescriptions are universal. No physician prescribes t3. Atleast I've not heard/read of any who does.
But lets not forget that those patients are usually non bodybuilders and not dieting. And thus t4 to t3 conversion may not necessarily impaired in their case. Thus supplementing them with just t4 would solve problem in most cases.

[galeniko]

The "T3 causes catabolism" sentiment is one that is vastly exaggerated on AAS boards.  To have this occur at any reasonable amount would require absurd levels of exogenous T3 and/or an absolutely horrendous dietary design...

if youre dieting, you can easy lose muscle on t3, its not exagerated.

esp when already lean.

[Nasty Nate]

if youre dieting, you can easy lose muscle on t3, its not exagerated.

esp when already lean.

x2..

[SamoanIrishman]

Yes...t4 prescriptions are universal. No physician prescribes t3. Atleast I've not heard/read of any who does.
But lets not forget that those patients are usually non bodybuilders and not dieting. And thus t4 to t3 conversion may not necessarily impaired in their case. Thus supplementing them with just t4 would solve problem in most cases.

So you're saying that some fat dude that is 30% + BF would be better off with T4 than T3?

[CycleJunkie]

That's why I was also a little surprised to learn that physicians prescribe T4.

It just seems they are making the body perform one additional step which could be avoided if exogenous T3 were used instead.  Plus, if the person has a conversion problem then T4 wouldn't be the ideal solution?!?

But what do I know...

[chetanbarokar]

So you're saying that some fat dude that is 30% + BF would be better off with T4 than T3?

Physicians prescribe t4 to those who are generally hypothyroid. ESS is not the problem. Thus appropriate dosage of t4 takes care of low thyroid level. Body itself converts t4 to t3 as per its requirement. No more no less. Raising metabolism above normal isnt the purpose behind prescribing t4. Hope this makes sense.