Think about it, we, the usa, used an atomic bomb!

[Thick Nick]

ok fair enough no name calling and I am sorry,

but really anybody on this planet even a grade 5 knows you would have to go to war with entire world if you dropped a nuke on innocent people in todays era, this is not even debatable. Come on bro.

I couldn't agree more... Today's world yes.

At the time of 911 we were not hated the way we are now. We had a small window to do it and avoid so much loss of life. And we blew it.

[WalterWhite]

the japanese would never ever have surrendered its said.

but the usa could have done the following:


drop the bomb on an japanese islnad that where no people live and show the footage to the japanese people.

that could have worked.i mean the thread works all the way till today.

japan citizens werent all 100% behind their leaders agreeing with everything.,thats a myth.

They would not surrender after what's considered the worst "firebombing" in history of Tokyo.  They had three days to issues a surrender after Hiroshima and would not.

[BB]

People seem to forget the scale of the War too. The US lost 420,000 people. England lost a bit more than that, Australia 40,000, Russia tens of millions, etc.... many being civilian draftees. The US was at War for 6 years, the others longer. Everyone was War weary.

If we were to institute Operation Downfall, the thought was 2 - 4 million injured, with 400,000 - 800,000 being fatalities just on the US side, with 25,000 - 30,000 of them in the first month.

The Japanese fatality rate would be estimated at near 10 times that.

It made sense to drop the bomb. They had ample warning with Pottsdam, they had a chance after Hiroshima. They have no one to blame but themselves.

[tommywishbone]

I always think about someone dropping a nuclear bomb on my house and killing every single person I know, before I go out and start a fight for no reason. Cuts down on the amount of fights I start for no reason. 

[OTHstrong]

I couldn't agree more... Today's world yes.

At the time of 911 we were not hated the way we are now. We had a small window to do it and avoid so much loss of life. And we blew it.

since the 70's, nuking anyone would result in the entire World turning on you, plain and simple, there is no windows of opportunity, nuking anyone would spark a shit storm of global proportions. The only window that allowed a nuking was in 1945 when it was in fact done, by the late 60's forget it.

[Thick Nick]

People seem to forget the scale of the War too. The US lost 420,000 people. England lost a bit more than that, Australia 40,000, Russia tens of millions, etc.... many being civilian draftees. The US was at War for 6 years, the others longer. Everyone was War weary.

If we were to institute Operation Downfall, the thought was 2 - 4 million injured, with 400,000 - 800,000 being fatalities just on the US side, with 25,000 - 30,000 of them in the first month.

The Japanese fatality rate would be estimated at near 10 times that.

It made sense to drop the bomb. They had ample warning with Pottsdam, they had a chance after Hiroshima. They have no one to blame but themselves.

Exactly. When I say millions of lives... I mean MILLIONS. My father was anti tank division in WW2. Groink is right war is hell... Less hell is > more hell.

[OTHstrong]

People seem to forget the scale of the War too. The US lost 420,000 people. England lost a bit more than that, Australia 40,000, Russia tens of millions, etc.... many being civilian draftees. The US was at War for 6 years, the others longer. Everyone was War weary.

If we were to institute Operation Downfall, the thought was 2 - 4 million injured, with 400,000 - 800,000 being fatalities just on the US side, with 25,000 - 30,000 of them in the first month.

The Japanese fatality rate would be estimated at near 10 times that.

It made sense to drop the bomb. They had ample warning with Pottsdam, they had a chance after Hiroshima. They have no one to blame but themselves.

What percentage of American's were civilians and how many civilians? compare that to how many civilians died in the 2 nukes. Innocent woman and children who had nothing to do with the war.

This is not WAR it is mass murder.

[Shockwave]

ya kill innocent woman and children because Japan had what it takes to penetrate US soil and kill millions, fucken brilliant EINSTEIN 

weve been over this bro.... millions of lives were saved from us not having to invade the japanese mainland... the japs were using women and childreb as suicide bombers when we hit okinawa, their culture was to sacrifice ones life in defense of the homeland..... there was a million US troops being prepped to invade the country had they not surrendered, plus all the innocents they would have thrown at us once we invaded.


Youre smarter than this bro...... we saved far more than we killed, on both sides

[OTHstrong]

Exactly. When I say millions of lives... I mean MILLIONS. My father was anti tank division in WW2. Groink is right war is hell... Less hell is > more hell.

It is not justice to kill innocent woman and children, war is hell but you are killing soldiers who have accepted death and have even signed a document.

[Thick Nick]

What percentage of American's were civilians and how many civilians? compare that to how many civilians died in the 2 nukes. Innocent woman and children who had nothing to do with the war.

This is not WAR it is mass murder.

I didn't mean save millions of American lives OTH. I meant lives period. At that time we had a draft, so I contend all of the deaths were civilian deaths.

That's why I say war today is convoluted. It's not the same with volunteers, media access, and lawyers.

[WalterWhite]

What percentage of American's were civilians and how many civilians? compare that to how many civilians died in the 2 nukes. Innocent woman and children who had nothing to do with the war.

This is not WAR it is mass murder.

OTH why don't you focus on civilians killed by the Nazis or the Japanese?  Why just this matter which has been explained giving Japan numerous times to surrender.    The Nanking Massacre is just one example and I can site endless examples of WW2 atrocities.  

The war needed to end and Japan had to be forced to surrender because Tokyo being leveled was not enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

[el numero uno]

The blue shirt fits you well Tito.

[OTHstrong]

weve been over this bro.... millions of lives were saved from us not having to invade the japanese mainland... the japs were using women and childreb as suicide bombers when we hit okinawa, their culture was to sacrifice ones life in defense of the homeland..... there was a million US troops being prepped to invade the country had they not surrendered, plus all the innocents they would have thrown at us once we invaded.


Youre smarter than this bro...... we saved far more than we killed, on both sides

Numbers is the logic of a soldiers, I get that, i am not stupid, which is why soldiers do not dictate policy, governments do, which means it is not civilized to compare numbers from soldiers to innocent civilians. It is a radical approach.

It may work in preventing something but terrorism works as well, this is murder of people who had no involvement in the situation,was it there fault they were born in Japan, so they have to be killed ruthlessly by fire

[OTHstrong]

OTH why don't you focus on civilians killed by the Nazis or the Japanese?  Why just this matter which has been explained giving Japan numerous times to surrender.    The Nanking Massacre is just one example and I can site endless examples of WW2 atrocities.  

The war needed to end and Japan had to be forced to surrender because Tokyo being leveled was not enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

We can discuss those atrocities if you want to, i am not limited to disagreeing with only this particular situation.

[Shockwave]

Numbers is the logic of a soldiers, I get that, i am not stupid, which is why soldiers do not dictate policy, governments do, which means it is not civilized to compare numbers from soldiers to innocent civilians. It is a radical approach.

It may work in preventing something but terrorism works as well, this is murder of people who had no involvement in the situation,was it there fault they were born in Japan, so they have to be killed ruthlessly by fire

bro. Youre not looking at the amount of JAPANESE that were saved. They literally had their women and children blowing themselves up to protect Okinawa, as they considered it a part of the homeland. They literally believed that every japanese man, woman, and child were obligated to fight to the death to protect the homeland. The invasion woukd have been a bloodbath of women and children killed.

The bombs were the far lesser of two evils.

[OTHstrong]

bro. Youre not looking at the amount of JAPANESE that were saved. They literally had their women and children blowing themselves up to protect Okinawa, as they considered it a part of the homeland. They literally believed that every japanese man, woman, and child were obligated to fight to the death to protect the homeland. The invasion woukd have been a bloodbath of women and children killed.

The bombs were the far lesser of two evils.

The survivors of the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki do not tell that story bro, they claimed they had nothing to do with the situation and every country has civilians jumping on you when you invade, this is perfectly normal and regular circumstance in any situation

[OTHstrong]

You bastards , I could have been shingling all morning, lmao 

No no, I respect everyone's point of view here, great points by everyone,will be back later, have to finish up a house here, great thread.

cheers 

[BB]

What percentage of American's were civilians and how many civilians? compare that to how many civilians died in the 2 nukes. Innocent woman and children who had nothing to do with the war.

This is not WAR it is mass murder.

A decent percentage of draftees were closer to civilians than career Military men. Also the Japanese have no right to complain about civilian deaths. Just during WWII, they were estimated at 12 million plus on the low end. They also had spectacular mortality rates among the POWs under their care.

[OTHstrong]

A decent percentage of draftees were closer to civilians than career Military men. Also the Japanese have no right to complain about civilian deaths. Just during WWII, they were estimated at 12 million plus on the low end. They also had spectacular mortality rates among the POWs under their care.

no way, that is no where near accurate but I will resume the argument later.

[Thick Nick]

I didn't mean save millions of American lives OTH. I meant lives period. At that time we had a draft, so I contend all of the deaths were civilian deaths.

That's why I say war today is convoluted. It's not the same with volunteers, media access, and lawyers.

I said this already. Draft = civilian deaths.

[Shockwave]

The survivors of the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki do not tell that story bro, they claimed they had nothing to do with the situation and every country has civilians jumping on you when you invade, this is perfectly normal and regular circumstance in any situation

of course they dont. Lol. Thats like asking a guy that picked a fight and got bis ass kicked what happened.  Those same people, 90% would have  become combatants and died anyway. Not only that, but as a leader, you HAVE to put the lives of your own above the lives of the enemy. Period, end of sentence.

far more lives were saved (at least 10x) ,on both sides, as the bombs killed. Its so far offset that its really not even debatable. The only people that think it was a tragedy were the japanese because they got their ass kicked and its a sore spot in their memory.

Not to mention howbhorrible the japanese were to non japanese.  Tjey were absolutley terrible and regularly executed anyone who wasnt japanese for no reason.

They fought a very dirty war and it came back to bite them in the ass.

[nextgen]

will never understand how so many people still attempt to justify the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki, nothing can be said to justify that.. even today american morons still claim the recent japanese earthquakes etc are 'payback' for pearl harbor.. insane when you realise people still think like this

[OTHstrong]

of course they dont. Lol. Thats like asking a guy that picked a fight and got bis ass kicked what happened.  Those same people, 90% would have  become combatants and died anyway. Not only that, but as a leader, you HAVE to put the lives of your own above the lives of the enemy. Period, end of sentence.

far more lives were saved (at least 10x) ,on both sides, as the bombs killed. Its so far offset that its really not even debatable. The only people that think it was a tragedy were the japanese because they got their ass kicked and its a sore spot in their memory.

Not to mention howbhorrible the japanese were to non japanese.  Tjey were absolutley terrible and regularly executed anyone who wasnt japanese for no reason.

They fought a very dirty war and it came back to bite them in the ass.

That is the point, only Americans feel it was right and brits too, the rest of the world does not, in fact to eradicate innocent civilians, woman and children and utterly slaughter them is mass murder.

So believe the culprit or everyone else, obviously your cause and argument right now comes with an agenda and that is you are a proud American or a Brit right?

[BB]

no way, that is no where near accurate but I will resume the argument later.

It adds a tiny bit of the 1930's in there, but -

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM .

That is one of the lower estimates.

[doriancutlerman]

It is not justice to kill innocent woman and children, war is hell but you are killing soldiers who have accepted death and have even signed a document.

I really like you dude, but I can't disagree more with this line of reasoning.  Had the nukes not been used and the Allies invaded Japan itself, think about the civilian fatalities that would've resulted.  The losses in Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have paled in comparison.