Author Topic: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link  (Read 20023 times)

muscleman-2013

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #225 on: February 10, 2014, 03:04:22 AM »
Not wanting to debate here (as it's getbig.com = humour not sorting the universe) but I always wondered why, when we have discovered 1000's of intact skeletons of dinosaurs, whales, monkeys, fish, wolves etc etc but never a SINGLE skeleton of the 'halfway phase' of these creatures while they were supposedly evolved?

Yes, the odd mishaped skull, or toe bone has been found, and then an entire artwork/sculpture has been fabricated around that single bone (lol) for display in scientific museums (haha) - but why never a full skeleton when supposedly there are billions of dead semi evolved apes for example.

This question is not in the context of religion or age of the earth, just something that has always bothered me - even if I subscribed to the Theory of Evolution, I would still wonder this?

PLS don't talk about things that make evolution look like an "unproven, unlikely theory"
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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #226 on: February 10, 2014, 03:13:38 AM »
Not wanting to debate here (as it's getbig.com = humour not sorting the universe) but I always wondered why, when we have discovered 1000's of intact skeletons of dinosaurs, whales, monkeys, fish, wolves etc etc but never a SINGLE skeleton of the 'halfway phase' of these creatures while they were supposedly evolved?

Yes, the odd mishaped skull, or toe bone has been found, and then an entire artwork/sculpture has been fabricated around that single bone (lol) for display in scientific museums (haha) - but why never a full skeleton when supposedly there are billions of dead semi evolved apes for example.

This question is not in the context of religion or age of the earth, just something that has always bothered me - even if I subscribed to the Theory of Evolution, I would still wonder this?

Humans were seeded here by another civilization.
We have some DNA that is alien to this planet, 233 genes precisely.

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #227 on: February 10, 2014, 03:35:12 AM »
Not wanting to debate here (as it's getbig.com = humour not sorting the universe) but I always wondered why, when we have discovered 1000's of intact skeletons of dinosaurs, whales, monkeys, fish, wolves etc etc but never a SINGLE skeleton of the 'halfway phase' of these creatures while they were supposedly evolved?

Yes, the odd mishaped skull, or toe bone has been found, and then an entire artwork/sculpture has been fabricated around that single bone (lol) for display in scientific museums (haha) - but why never a full skeleton when supposedly there are billions of dead semi evolved apes for example.

This question is not in the context of religion or age of the earth, just something that has always bothered me - even if I subscribed to the Theory of Evolution, I would still wonder this?
You have no idea what you are talking about. Here you have all answers: http://www.trueorigin.org

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #228 on: February 10, 2014, 03:55:00 AM »
You have no idea what you are talking about. Here you have all answers: http://www.trueorigin.org

Thanks, looks very boring.

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #229 on: February 10, 2014, 04:25:10 AM »
Thanks, looks very boring.
Ignorance is a choice.

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #230 on: February 10, 2014, 05:29:20 AM »
Thanks, looks very boring.
The truth often is.  Perhaps that's part of the motivation to believe in fairy tales and mythology, it's more exciting.  Kind if like believing in Santa is more fun then the reality that there isn't a kindly grandpa dressed in a red suit destined to fulfill the material wishes of children everywhere once a year.
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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #231 on: February 10, 2014, 05:41:29 AM »
Saying the earth is 6,000 years old, proves how dumb some people are. It's not even possible given what we know

Ancient Egypt is a 5,000+ year old civilization in itself.

Don't forget about T-Rex. They came before the Egyptians  ;)

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #232 on: February 10, 2014, 05:48:08 AM »
Saying the earth is 6,000 years old, proves how dumb some people are. It's not even possible given what we know

Ancient Egypt is a 5,000+ year old civilization in itself.

Don't forget about T-Rex. They came before the Egyptians  ;)

Come on Shizzo, I know you're a stupic drunk but surely you can use reason here.

"given what we know" I've read papers, listened to debate after debate from the best creationists and evolutionists over the last 10 years and NOT ONE has been able to "know" how old even a single fossil is, when it's over a few thousand years old. Carbon dating is theoretical beyond a few thousand years.

So you don't KNOW anything bro.

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #233 on: February 10, 2014, 05:56:07 AM »
Come on Shizzo, I know you're a stupic drunk but surely you can use reason here.

"given what we know" I've read papers, listened to debate after debate from the best creationists and evolutionists over the last 10 years and NOT ONE has been able to "know" how old even a single fossil is, when it's over a few thousand years old. Carbon dating is theoretical beyond a few thousand years.

So you don't KNOW anything bro.
Nice troll brah. I would think written accounts of ancient civilizations would have commented on living alongside dinosaurs. Places like Rome are even 2,500+ years old.

It's common sense. There are trees that are thousands of years old. It takes forever for geological formations such as the Grand Canyon or the Rocky mountains to form.

It is impossible for it to be only 6,000 years old.

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #234 on: February 10, 2014, 07:08:59 AM »
Jesus once warned: “Whosoever shall say, ‘You fool,’ shall be in danger of the hell of fire” (Mt. 5:22). And yet elsewhere, the Lord, in addressing the scribes and Pharisees, declared: “You fools …” (23:17).

While the superficial student might see a conflict here, actually, there is none; the respective passages are addressing different matters.

In the earlier context, Christ is condemning the impulsive, insulting use of hateful epithets for the purpose of venting one’s personal hostility. “Fool” (Greek, more) may be designed to reflect upon the character of an adversary, in the sense of: “You scoundrel!” (Bruce, 107).

On the other hand, the word “fool” (or a kindred term, e.g., “foolish”) may be employed calmly and objectively to describe someone who is acting in a senseless, stupid fashion. To certain misguided Christians, who were being seduced away from Christ towards the Mosaic regime, Paul could say: “O foolish Galatians” (Gal. 3:1). J. B. Phillips rendered the phrase: “O you dear idiots of Galatia” (393).

It makes for a fascinating study to explore the sort of person who is denominated as a “fool” in Scripture. Let us consider but one example — that of the atheist.

A thousand years before the birth of Jesus, the poet-king of Israel wrote: “The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God” (Psa. 14:1). The Hebrew term for “fool” is nabal, which signifies a “senseless” person. Especially is the word used of one who has “no perception of ethical and religious claims” (Brown, et al., 614).

In the Greek version of the Old Testament, the word rendered “fool” is aphron, literally, “mindless.” It represents “the lack of common sense perception of the reality of things natural and spiritual” (Vos, 44).

In the passage just cited, the “fool” denies the existence of God (cf. 53:2); elsewhere in the same book the term describes one who insults his or her Creator continually (74:22). The prophet Isaiah employed the word of the individual who stands in contrast to a noble-minded person (32:5). Why is the one who affirms — “There is no God!” — a fool? There are many factors.

First, in defiance of one of the most elementary principles of logic, the atheist suggests that “something” (e.g., the Universe) came from “nothing;” that zero plus zero equals something greater than zero.

Victor Stenger, an atheistic professor at the University of Hawaii, admits that “everyday experience and common sense” supports the concept that something cannot come from nothing. Nevertheless, he suggests that “common sense is often wrong, and our normal experiences are but a tiny fraction of reality” (26-27). If you want to be an atheist, you must put your “common sense” on the shelf!

Second, atheists contend that the entire Universe, estimated to be 20 billion light years across (the distance light could travel in 20 billion years at the rate of 186,000 miles per second) accidentally derived from a submicroscopic particle of matter. As one writer expresses it: “Astonishingly, scientists now calculate that everything in this vast universe grew out of a region many billions of times smaller than a single proton, one of the atom’s basic particles” (Gore, 705). This is totally nonsensical.

Then consider this fact. Atheism contends that the marvelously ordered Universe, designated as Cosmos by the Greeks because of its intricate design, is merely the result of an ancient explosion (the Big Bang). Does a contractor pile lumber, brick, wire, pipe, etc., on a building site, blast it with dynamite, and expect a fine dwelling to result? Is that the way atheists build their houses? To so argue is to reveal a truly “senseless heart” (cf. Rom. 1:21).

In spite of millions of examples in nature, which suggest that biological life can only derive from a living source, atheists believe that billions of years ago, life was accidentally generated from inorganic materials. Common sense and experimentation argue otherwise, but skeptics are willing to abandon logic and opt for the myth of “spontaneous generation,” because the only other alternative is “special creation.” To atheists that simply is not a possibility. Why? Because the fool, for emotional reasons, has already decided: “There is no God.”

Here’s a puzzle. Atheists believe that blind, unintelligent forces of nature, via genetic mutations and the process of natural selection, produced the myriads of delightful creatures that inhabit Earth’s environment. But the skeptic can clearly see that a simple pair of pliers, with only four components, must have been designed by an intelligent being.
Still he argues that the human body, with its 100 trillion constituent elements (cells), organized into ten magnificent systems, is merely the result of a marriage between Mother Nature and Father Time. How very stupid such ideology is!

Finally, Atheists believe that from a tiny speck of inorganic, self-created matter, human consciousness and moral sensitivity evolved. That is utterly ludicrous. Can a rock decide to “think”? Can a proton “feel” guilt?

The notion that morality has developed merely as a survival factor (cf. Hayes, 174), is asinine in the extreme. Plants have survived; do they possess a moral code? And what if one decides that he doesn’t care about the “survival” principle? Can he do any “wrong”?
When men refuse to have God in their knowledge, he gives them up to a “reprobate mind,” i.e., one which does not “pass the test” (Rom. 1:28). They are not “intellectuals,” as they fantasize; they are fools.

As G. K. Chesterton once said: “When men cease to believe in God, they do not believe in nothing; they believe in anything!”

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #235 on: February 10, 2014, 07:22:20 AM »
Nice troll brah. I would think written accounts of ancient civilizations would have commented on living alongside dinosaurs. Places like Rome are even 2,500+ years old.

It's common sense. There are trees that are thousands of years old. It takes forever for geological formations such as the Grand Canyon or the Rocky mountains to form.

It is impossible for it to be only 6,000 years old.




Utah (150BC / 2164 years ago)



Greece (550BC / 2564 years ago)



China 2000BC (4000 years ago)

So there's 3 ancient depictions of different dinosaurs, from 3 different continents at 3 different times.

I can post 50 more if you'd like?

King Shizzo

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #236 on: February 10, 2014, 07:35:53 AM »


Utah (150BC / 2164 years ago)



Greece (550BC / 2564 years ago)



China 2000BC (4000 years ago)

So there's 3 ancient depictions of different dinosaurs, from 3 different continents at 3 different times.

I can post 50 more if you'd like?
I thought you said we really don't know how old shit is? Besides, I have always thought that humans have lived along side of animals that are now extinct to us. We still live with dinosaurs (crocs, alligators, turtles, sharks, lizards, roaches) We still have giant sea creatures to this day (squid)

The first pic looks like a forgery, although there are still Loch Ness sightings to this day.

Are you implying that Dinosaurs lived earlier then 6,000 years ago?

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #237 on: February 10, 2014, 07:41:27 AM »
I thought you said we really don't know how old shit is? Besides, I have always thought that humans have lived along side of animals that are now extinct to us. We still live with dinosaurs (crocs, alligators, turtles, sharks, lizards, roaches) We still have giant sea creatures to this day (squid)

The first pic looks like a forgery, although there are still Loch Ness sightings to this day.

Are you implying that Dinosaurs lived earlier then 6,000 years ago?

Lol, obviously we can't accurately carbon date past a few thousand years, but with artifacts there is more evidence to date this. I.e. a vase from a certain chinese dynasty will have specific techniques/patterns/craftmanship so you can almost 100% confirm it is x amount of years old. Problem with skeletons and fossils, is that the scientist dig them up and then ASSUME that that particular layer of earth/rock is x amount of years old, and therefore the bones MUST be the same haha. Take the last major flood or landslide that happened within the last 10 years, and 1000 years from now some scientsists will be digging up remains and saying "Yes this one is 100,000 years old a least, as it's iin this particular layer blah blah" not accounting for the fact that natural disasters can throw the whole spectrum out the window.

I believe that dinosaurs are 6000-6014 years old, along with people and the rest of creation.

King Shizzo

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #238 on: February 10, 2014, 07:46:15 AM »
Lol, obviously we can't accurately carbon date past a few thousand years, but with artifacts there is more evidence to date this. I.e. a vase from a certain chinese dynasty will have specific techniques/patterns/craftmanship so you can almost 100% confirm it is x amount of years old. Problem with skeletons and fossils, is that the scientist dig them up and then ASSUME that that particular layer of earth/rock is x amount of years old, and therefore the bones MUST be the same haha. Take the last major flood or landslide that happened within the last 10 years, and 1000 years from now some scientsists will be digging up remains and saying "Yes this one is 100,000 years old a least, as it's iin this particular layer blah blah" not accounting for the fact that natural disasters can throw the whole spectrum out the window.

I believe that dinosaurs are 6000-6014 years old, along with people and the rest of creation.
;D

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #239 on: February 10, 2014, 03:54:49 PM »
Fuck this debate. There is no debate. A debate with a creationist does nothing but serve to legitimize their asinine beliefs.

Never argue with a retard.

qft

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #240 on: February 10, 2014, 04:38:39 PM »
Fuck this debate. There is no debate. A debate with a creationist does nothing but serve to legitimize their asinine beliefs.

Never argue with a retard.

Oh, I see. You think "science" as you think you know it, can answer everything?

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #241 on: February 10, 2014, 04:40:22 PM »
Oh, I see. You think "science" as you think you know it, can answer everything?

Never said that Joe. Are you illiterate?
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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #242 on: February 10, 2014, 04:41:20 PM »
The Bill Nye-Ken Ham Debate Was a Nightmare for Science

In a much-hyped showdown, “the Science Guy” tried to defend evolution against creationist Ken Ham, and proved how slick science-deniers can be. How did the guy who’s right go so wrong?

On many mornings, I wake up and think, “You know what this country needs? More culture war.” As I scramble up a couple eggs, I find myself wishing—fervently wishing—that we could spend more time reducing substantive issues to mere spectacle. Later, as I scrub the pan, I’ll fantasize about how those very spectacles might even funnel money toward some of the country’s most politicized religious groups.

Fortunately, Bill “the Science Guy” Nye has heard my wish—which, really, is the wish of a nation. Why else would he have traveled to Kentucky this week in order to debate Ken Ham, the young-earth creationist founder of Answers in Genesis, about the origins of the world?

Actually, there are two other reasons that Nye might have done so, and I’ve given both possibilities a great deal of thought in the past few days. The first is that Nye, for all his bow-tied charm, is at heart a publicity-hungry cynic, eager to reestablish the national reputation he once had as the host of a PBS show. When his stint on Dancing With the Stars ended quickly, Nye turned to the only other channel that could launch him back to national attention: a sensationalized debate, replete with the media buzz that he craves.

Possibility number two is that Nye is clueless—that, for all his skill as a science communicator, Nye has less political acumen than your average wombat.

After watching the debate, I’m leaning toward that second possibility. Last night, it was easy to pick out the smarter man on the stage. Oddly, it was the same man who was arguing that the earth is 6,000 years old.

It was like watching the Broncos play the Seahawks. Nye never had a chance. Ham won this debate months ago, when Nye agreed to participate. By last Friday, when I spoke with Ham, Nye hadn’t even arrived in Kentucky, but Ham was already basking in the glow of victory (Nye didn’t respond to my request for comment). “The response,” Ham told me, “has been absolutely phenomenal.” He talked about the media attention. He talked about how professional the stage was going to look. He talked more about the media attention. “It’s going to create a lot of discussion. I think that’s very healthy,” said Ham, in reference to the raging scientific debate over whether evolution actually happened. “In many ways aggressive atheists have shut down that discussion.” But, Ham continued, “the public wants to hear about” origins. Fortunately, Nye has given them that chance.

When I asked whether the debate would bring any financial perks, Ham hastened to talk me down. “The ticket sales won’t come to half the cost of the debate,” he explained. The publicity, though, may be priceless. The last time Ham gained national media attention, it was for his failure to raise enough money to build the enormous Noah’s Ark theme park he’s been planning as an accompaniment to his slick creation museum. This time, he gallops onto the national stage as defender of the faith—a stance that may open some pocketbooks. Perhaps Ham will dedicate a plank in the replica ark to his bowtied benefactor.

    It was like watching the Broncos play the Seahawks. Nye never had a chance.

Ham had nothing to lose. When you exist on the cultural fringe and make your living by antagonizing established authority, there’s no form of media attention you don’t love. All Ham had to do was sit still for two-and-a-half hours, sound vaguely professional, and pander occasionally to his base. Sure, if you listened closely, what Ham was saying made absolutely no scientific sense. But debate is a format of impressions, not facts. Ham sounded like a reasonable human being, loosely speaking, and that’s what mattered.

Nye, meanwhile, spent three-quarters of the debate sounding like a clueless geek, even if his points were scientifically valid. He went on strange asides and make awkward appeals to the obviously hostile audience, which he at one point referred to as “my Kentucky friends.” He spent 10 minutes delivering a dry lecture on geological sediments and biogeography, using the kind of PowerPoint slides that a high school junior might make for his AP Biology class. Ham, seemingly aware that debate is a form of entertainment, and that entertainment thrives on human stories, presented testimonial videos from engineers and biology PhDs who hold creationist views. Nye, on the other hand, spent a lot of time talking about the “billions of people” who “are religious, and who accept science and embrace it”—because God knows that Americans love nothing more than conforming to the religious opinions of foreign nations.

In one all-too-typical two-minute span, Nye started out by explaining how evolutionary biologists make predictions. He then veered into the sexual habits of minnows, suddenly jumped to the number of bacteria in the human gut, discussed the amount of energy required for roses to produce fruit, told the story about how his first cousin (once removed) died from the flu, and then bounced back to the horny minnows, with reference to certain fish diseases. All of this talk about sex and germs will make sense if you’re familiar with the Red Queen hypothesis. If you’re not, good luck. Five topics in two minutes, with extensive prior knowledge assumed: science communication in action!

It was around this point that I began drinking.

Ham’s argument, essentially, was that there are two kinds of science—observational, concerned-only-with-what-we-can-touch-and-see science, on which, Ham said, we all happily agree; and historical science, on which we don’t. This is bullshit, of course. We can use evidence from the present to extrapolate about the past. But it’s straightforward, logical-sounding bullshit, which means that it makes for good debate material.

Nye went into the debate, he says, in order to protect and promote science education in the United States. His most important argument was that people like Ham are ruining America’s global competitiveness by weakening science education. It’s a shame that Nye pushed that point so strongly, because it was the one thing he said all night for which he did not have any actual evidence. Creationism in public schools may be a social disaster, but it’s hard to prove that it’s a financial one, too. And Ham was ready. He had a recorded statement in which Raymond Damadian, who helped invent MRI, expressed his firm belief that the world was created in six days, six thousand years ago, as outlined in Genesis. Ham’s message was clear—and accurate: you can be a creationist and invent economically useful stuff.

There are those who will claim a victory for Nye. He did have his moments. Near the end of the debate, Nye found his footing, speaking passionately about the joys of scientific discovery. Doing so, he highlighted the degree to which creationism is a decidedly incurious, insular worldview. Ham was at a loss for words only once during the whole debate, when an audience member asked what it would take for him to change his mind. By contrast, Nye seemed most alive when talking about all the things that he couldn’t explain. The Ham-leaning audience was skeptical. But for anyone who lives in that uncomfortable middle, who engages with the uncertainty and wonder of a universe they don’t understand; and for anyone who doesn’t have a rigid dogma to fall back on, those moments couldn’t help but make Nye seem like a true champion of the common moderate.

But it was too late. Months too late. You don’t need to be Sun Tzu to realize that, when it comes to guys like Ken Ham, you can’t really win. If you refuse to debate them, they claim to be censored. If you agree to debate them, you give them a public platform on which to argue that, yep, they’re being censored. Better not to engage at all, at least directly. Nye may be the last to understand a point that seems to be circulating more widely these days: creationism is a political issue, not a scientific one, and throwing around scientific facts won’t dissuade those who don’t accept scientific authority in the first place.

When I spoke with Ham last week, he happily compared the debate to a football or baseball game. This brings up another, slightly subtler point. Simply put, thanks to the existence of antagonists like Nye, creationism is both profitable and, by all appearances, kind of fun. And profitable, fun activities tend to stick around, no matter what their moral hazards. Just ask anyone who enjoys watching football, concussions be damned.

Near the end of his opening statement, Ham explained that when it comes to the evolution debate, “the battle is really about authority.” Ham might not understand the science, but he gets the politics. A couple minutes later, Nye began his reply on a civil note: “Mr. Ham,” said Nye. “I learned something.”

Let’s hope so.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/05/the-bill-nye-ken-ham-debate-was-a-nightmare-for-science.html

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #243 on: February 10, 2014, 04:58:22 PM »
Joe is reaching hard to find some people who think that Ham won the debate.

It's really funny.

<3 you bro... no homo.

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #244 on: February 10, 2014, 05:01:11 PM »
There is no limit to ignorance and Getbiggers prove that statement abundantly. Next thing they will claim that free weights are superior to machines!

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #245 on: February 10, 2014, 05:50:43 PM »
Oh, I see. You think "science" as you think you know it, can answer everything?

Nothing against you personally, you are a pioneer after all... But you've lost it.







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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #246 on: February 10, 2014, 05:51:26 PM »
I thought you said we really don't know how old shit is? Besides, I have always thought that humans have lived along side of animals that are now extinct to us. We still live with dinosaurs (crocs, alligators, turtles, sharks, lizards, roaches) We still have giant sea creatures to this day (squid)

The first pic looks like a forgery, although there are still Loch Ness sightings to this day.

Are you implying that Dinosaurs lived earlier then 6,000 years ago?

Awesome, bro.

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #247 on: February 10, 2014, 06:11:14 PM »
The Bill Nye-Ken Ham Debate Was a Nightmare for Science

In a much-hyped showdown, “the Science Guy” tried to defend evolution against creationist Ken Ham, and proved how slick science-deniers can be. How did the guy who’s right go so wrong?

On many mornings, I wake up and think, “You know what this country needs? More culture war.” As I scramble up a couple eggs, I find myself wishing—fervently wishing—that we could spend more time reducing substantive issues to mere spectacle. Later, as I scrub the pan, I’ll fantasize about how those very spectacles might even funnel money toward some of the country’s most politicized religious groups.

Fortunately, Bill “the Science Guy” Nye has heard my wish—which, really, is the wish of a nation. Why else would he have traveled to Kentucky this week in order to debate Ken Ham, the young-earth creationist founder of Answers in Genesis, about the origins of the world?

Actually, there are two other reasons that Nye might have done so, and I’ve given both possibilities a great deal of thought in the past few days. The first is that Nye, for all his bow-tied charm, is at heart a publicity-hungry cynic, eager to reestablish the national reputation he once had as the host of a PBS show. When his stint on Dancing With the Stars ended quickly, Nye turned to the only other channel that could launch him back to national attention: a sensationalized debate, replete with the media buzz that he craves.

Possibility number two is that Nye is clueless—that, for all his skill as a science communicator, Nye has less political acumen than your average wombat.

After watching the debate, I’m leaning toward that second possibility. Last night, it was easy to pick out the smarter man on the stage. Oddly, it was the same man who was arguing that the earth is 6,000 years old.

It was like watching the Broncos play the Seahawks. Nye never had a chance. Ham won this debate months ago, when Nye agreed to participate. By last Friday, when I spoke with Ham, Nye hadn’t even arrived in Kentucky, but Ham was already basking in the glow of victory (Nye didn’t respond to my request for comment). “The response,” Ham told me, “has been absolutely phenomenal.” He talked about the media attention. He talked about how professional the stage was going to look. He talked more about the media attention. “It’s going to create a lot of discussion. I think that’s very healthy,” said Ham, in reference to the raging scientific debate over whether evolution actually happened. “In many ways aggressive atheists have shut down that discussion.” But, Ham continued, “the public wants to hear about” origins. Fortunately, Nye has given them that chance.

When I asked whether the debate would bring any financial perks, Ham hastened to talk me down. “The ticket sales won’t come to half the cost of the debate,” he explained. The publicity, though, may be priceless. The last time Ham gained national media attention, it was for his failure to raise enough money to build the enormous Noah’s Ark theme park he’s been planning as an accompaniment to his slick creation museum. This time, he gallops onto the national stage as defender of the faith—a stance that may open some pocketbooks. Perhaps Ham will dedicate a plank in the replica ark to his bowtied benefactor.

    It was like watching the Broncos play the Seahawks. Nye never had a chance.

Ham had nothing to lose. When you exist on the cultural fringe and make your living by antagonizing established authority, there’s no form of media attention you don’t love. All Ham had to do was sit still for two-and-a-half hours, sound vaguely professional, and pander occasionally to his base. Sure, if you listened closely, what Ham was saying made absolutely no scientific sense. But debate is a format of impressions, not facts. Ham sounded like a reasonable human being, loosely speaking, and that’s what mattered.

Nye, meanwhile, spent three-quarters of the debate sounding like a clueless geek, even if his points were scientifically valid. He went on strange asides and make awkward appeals to the obviously hostile audience, which he at one point referred to as “my Kentucky friends.” He spent 10 minutes delivering a dry lecture on geological sediments and biogeography, using the kind of PowerPoint slides that a high school junior might make for his AP Biology class. Ham, seemingly aware that debate is a form of entertainment, and that entertainment thrives on human stories, presented testimonial videos from engineers and biology PhDs who hold creationist views. Nye, on the other hand, spent a lot of time talking about the “billions of people” who “are religious, and who accept science and embrace it”—because God knows that Americans love nothing more than conforming to the religious opinions of foreign nations.

In one all-too-typical two-minute span, Nye started out by explaining how evolutionary biologists make predictions. He then veered into the sexual habits of minnows, suddenly jumped to the number of bacteria in the human gut, discussed the amount of energy required for roses to produce fruit, told the story about how his first cousin (once removed) died from the flu, and then bounced back to the horny minnows, with reference to certain fish diseases. All of this talk about sex and germs will make sense if you’re familiar with the Red Queen hypothesis. If you’re not, good luck. Five topics in two minutes, with extensive prior knowledge assumed: science communication in action!

It was around this point that I began drinking.

Ham’s argument, essentially, was that there are two kinds of science—observational, concerned-only-with-what-we-can-touch-and-see science, on which, Ham said, we all happily agree; and historical science, on which we don’t. This is bullshit, of course. We can use evidence from the present to extrapolate about the past. But it’s straightforward, logical-sounding bullshit, which means that it makes for good debate material.

Nye went into the debate, he says, in order to protect and promote science education in the United States. His most important argument was that people like Ham are ruining America’s global competitiveness by weakening science education. It’s a shame that Nye pushed that point so strongly, because it was the one thing he said all night for which he did not have any actual evidence. Creationism in public schools may be a social disaster, but it’s hard to prove that it’s a financial one, too. And Ham was ready. He had a recorded statement in which Raymond Damadian, who helped invent MRI, expressed his firm belief that the world was created in six days, six thousand years ago, as outlined in Genesis. Ham’s message was clear—and accurate: you can be a creationist and invent economically useful stuff.

There are those who will claim a victory for Nye. He did have his moments. Near the end of the debate, Nye found his footing, speaking passionately about the joys of scientific discovery. Doing so, he highlighted the degree to which creationism is a decidedly incurious, insular worldview. Ham was at a loss for words only once during the whole debate, when an audience member asked what it would take for him to change his mind. By contrast, Nye seemed most alive when talking about all the things that he couldn’t explain. The Ham-leaning audience was skeptical. But for anyone who lives in that uncomfortable middle, who engages with the uncertainty and wonder of a universe they don’t understand; and for anyone who doesn’t have a rigid dogma to fall back on, those moments couldn’t help but make Nye seem like a true champion of the common moderate.

But it was too late. Months too late. You don’t need to be Sun Tzu to realize that, when it comes to guys like Ken Ham, you can’t really win. If you refuse to debate them, they claim to be censored. If you agree to debate them, you give them a public platform on which to argue that, yep, they’re being censored. Better not to engage at all, at least directly. Nye may be the last to understand a point that seems to be circulating more widely these days: creationism is a political issue, not a scientific one, and throwing around scientific facts won’t dissuade those who don’t accept scientific authority in the first place.

When I spoke with Ham last week, he happily compared the debate to a football or baseball game. This brings up another, slightly subtler point. Simply put, thanks to the existence of antagonists like Nye, creationism is both profitable and, by all appearances, kind of fun. And profitable, fun activities tend to stick around, no matter what their moral hazards. Just ask anyone who enjoys watching football, concussions be damned.

Near the end of his opening statement, Ham explained that when it comes to the evolution debate, “the battle is really about authority.” Ham might not understand the science, but he gets the politics. A couple minutes later, Nye began his reply on a civil note: “Mr. Ham,” said Nye. “I learned something.”

Let’s hope so.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/05/the-bill-nye-ken-ham-debate-was-a-nightmare-for-science.html
Coach so you agree the Ken Ham guy is full of shit like this author is saying? Or is it that you 'agree' with the article purely because it doesn't portray Bill Nye in a good light, even if it doesn't agree with your viewpoint on creationism/evolution?  ??? I cannot help but feel the latter, or it maybe that you posted the article without comprehending what it is saying.

I skimmed over the article and I don't agree with the points I came across. The different styles in presentation merely reflects the truthfulness of the viewpoints... Bill Nye didn't need to 'pander to the base', appeal to authority ("This really smart guy believes in evolution, therefore its correct!"), or use other deceptive tactics to make his point. Serious minded people aptly able to tell the truth apart from fiction, regardless of the presentation.
follow the arrows

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #248 on: February 10, 2014, 06:35:45 PM »
I missed the debate!  :(

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Re: Bill Nye is about to Destroy Creationist Ken Ham- Live Link
« Reply #249 on: February 10, 2014, 06:37:22 PM »
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