Author Topic: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?  (Read 2401 times)

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Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« on: March 03, 2014, 10:09:53 AM »
I've heard a lot of "Obama sucks!" about this Russian mess... About ten of those threads now.  Maybe fifteen.

So what's the answer?   I'm not asking, "What did obama do wrong?"...  I'm asking what the solution to this mess is.

Russians are in there... do we send in our own troops?  And if so, WHY?  Cause oil prices are affected by who puts in a puppet regime into Ukraine? 

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2014, 10:34:27 AM »
No. First boots on the ground in Crimea - be it Nato or Russian - ended this before it started. Without the 1.5 billion $ Russian gas bill being paid what does the rest of the country have to offer? Capital controls amid bank runs have already happened...IMF bails them out? USA sends billions? Nato shows its treaties have no power? Belarus on the border is pro Russian also.

Only Putin understood this...meanwhile G8 meetings were being canceled, McCain is photo-opping with neo-Nazis and stern words were being put together by Hagel, Kerry, Oblameo...sad.

We are not sending troops there. If we do, gas prices are the last thing we have to worry about.

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2014, 10:50:15 AM »
Russia's Black Sea forces have told Ukrainian forces in Crimea to surrender by 03:00hrs GMT on Tuesday ~ AlJazeera

Someone quipped "if I were them, I'd surrender by 02:00 GMT just to make it clear"
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headhuntersix

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2014, 11:22:38 AM »
No...economic sanctions and plenty of other shit to get under the Russians' skin. Maybe run a few more big NATO exercises in Poland rather then Germany.
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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2014, 12:17:39 PM »
Place (some mild form of) economic sanction on Russia immediately with a statement telling Russia that we respect them as an ally and wish to remain so, but they are in violation of the US-Ukraine nuclear agreement (that thing we have with Ukraine about protecting them from invasion in return for a non-nuclear Ukraine) and we stand by our allies/agreements.  

Russia won't back out their troops, but the US won't look like ineffective pussies and Russia will have to deal with the sanctions.  
Putin will reply that he is acting in Russia's best interests..etc.  

We follow that with a statement about respectfully disagreeing (whatever the geo-political way of saying that is) and make it known that we will not stand for any act of unprovoked aggression by the Russian military. To make sure they know we're serious, we bring a small military presence into the area(nothing aggressive, just letting Putin know that we are prepared to act militarily if necessary...can choose a way of doing it so that it could even look like we would be in that area regardless)

If the situation escalates in any way, we act immediately with additional form of sanctions and a firm stance that unprovoked military aggression will not be tolerated


They're already in the Ukraine.  You can't tell them to leave immediately at this point because they're not going to and we're not going to go to war with Russia when they stay put.  
You have to let them know that we disagree with their involvement and ACT on that in some way (some type of economic sanction).  You then continue to act on any actions that deepen Russia's involvement via harsher sanctions and a firm commitment to military action (does not mean all out war...) against Russia if they show any unprovoked military aggression in violation of our agreement with Ukraine.  



IMO, whatever that agreement we have with Ukraine is a huge plus for the US that isn't being taken advantage of.  We could be using it to show that the US stands by its agreements and make Russia look like they're a direct aggressor to the US as well.  
Instead we're looking into whether or not that deal is even valid in this situation..which makes us doubly weak since we've taken zero action and are looking to see if we have a way out of ever needing to take action
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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2014, 12:19:33 PM »
Fuck no...this has NOTHING to do with us, nor does it in any way threaten the united states or its citizens, and would only make the situation vastly worse and engender more global hatred for the US.

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2014, 12:21:43 PM »
Fuck no...this has NOTHING to do with us, nor does it in any way threaten the united states or its citizens, and would only make the situation vastly worse and engender more global hatred for the US.

If we have that agreement with the Ukraine then this is one time it actually does have something to do with us.  



If that agreement doesn't hold, then you state that immediately.  Instead we mention something about looking into it...like we have no fucking clue about anything.  We couldn't look less decisive on foreign policy...all that matters is that we look like we have a definite understanding of how to act/react to world events....and we do the opposite every fucking time.


IIt's too late to say this has nothing to do with us anyway.  We've already talked about potential action.  That's part of the problem.  If you aren't going to get involved then don't say you will get involved "if...." Because you look weak when that "if" happens and you don't stand by your statements.


We set ourselves up to look like idiots right off the bat...every fucking time. 
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headhuntersix

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2014, 12:28:51 PM »
I agree with D...we have an agreement and we don't have to send troops. It appears we're going the sanctions route and that's fine. No more Obama on TV either....I would announce in a couple of weeks that we're beefing up our war games with the poles and send a stateside Brigade. I think there was a series of games already planned so I'd find a unit planning on doing a rotation to JRTC or NTC and send them to Poland for a month instead.
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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2014, 12:31:19 PM »
This administration is completely clueless on foreign policy, thats for sure. The thing i love about putin/russia is that they stand as a huge counterforce to everything the liberals/globalists/multiculturalists/EU/NATO/PC crowd wants.

They are like a wrench in the gears of these assholes' global movement. There is absolutely no political correctness with them, they worry about their own interests instead of the globalist agenda, and act accordingly despite all the pleas and 'threats' of the EU and the obama admin...then look them in the eye and say 'what are you gonna do about it?'  ;D

No one else could do this. Look at how mad and flustered obama ad the EU are right now..hahha i love it.

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2014, 12:33:33 PM »
I admire the balls and leadership. Plus this isn't even a Georgia situation....this is strategically important to the Russians. They need those Black Sea bases and Crimea is all pretty much ethnically Russian.
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blacken700

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2014, 12:36:23 PM »
Explaining The Conservative Love Affair With Vladimir Putin: It’s All About Opposing Obama

 


 Doug Mataconis   ·   Friday, February 14, 2014   ·   34 Comments

Putin Smirk

While the American public as a whole has a largely negative view of both Vladmir Putin and Russia as a whole, there is a segment of the American public that has, over the past several years developed an oddly positive opinion of a nation that Mitt Romney, to the cheers of many on the right, called our biggest geopolitical rival, and a man who was once a top agent in the KGB. What’s odd is that these cheers are not coming from the left side of the political aisle as they might have in the 1930s, but from the right. Back in August, I observed that people such as Pat Buchanan and Rod Dreher have been heaping praise on Putin for things such as the anti-gay “propaganda” laws that he push through the Russian legislature and compared him positively to President Obama and what seems to be the new version of Buchanan’s “culture war” argument from the 1992 Presidential campaign. In December, Buchanan and Dreher were back with more praise for the Russian President and his authoritarian, anti-equality, and allegedly “pro-Christian” policies.

Now, one could easily dismiss Buchanan and Dreher as minority voices in the conservative movement. Indeed, that’s largely true when it comes to Buchanan who has been pushed to the sidelines since the 1990s, if not earlier, when his bizarre apologias for Nazi Germany first started making their way into print. Dreher isn’t like that, of course, but he is quite obviously far more of a cultural conservative than many in the conservative intelligentsia today, and the fact that he is an adherent to the Eastern Orthodox faith arguably makes him more sympathetic to a Russian world view on certain issues. However, it turns out that Buchanan and Dreher aren’t alone in their praise for Vladimir Putin. For example, Ben Carson, a Johns Hopkins Cardiologist who has become something of a sensation on the right for his rhetoric, said recently that Putin was correct to call the United States a “godless” country:


Last year Russian President Vladimir Putin criticized Euro-Atlantic countries, including the United States, of becoming godless and moving away from Christian values. Some may bristle at such an accusation, but when you consider that many Americans are hesitant even to mention God or Jesus in public, there may be some validity to his claim. We also casually have tossed out many of the principles espoused in the Bible and have concluded that there’s no authority greater than man himself.

The separation clause of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution is inappropriately applied to a host of situations that involve religion. By reinterpreting the law to mean separation of God and state, as opposed to the original intent of keeping the church from having undue influence over state affairs and keeping government from ruling the church, secular progressives have succeeded de facto in redefining part of the Constitution. Such success, however, can only be lasting if “we the people” continue to yield our values and beliefs in order to get along.

 


(…)

While we Americans are giving a cold shoulder to our religious heritage, the Russians are warming to religion. The Russians seem to be gaining prestige and influence throughout the world as we are losing ours. I wonder whether there is a correlation.

Carson’s argument, to the extent that there is one, is similar to the one that Buchanan and Dreher have made in that he seems to accept the illusion that Putin has created of himself as some great protector of Christianity. It’s certainly true that Putin seems to have mastered the rhetoric of religiosity over the past several years, both for the purposes of internal Russian politics and on the international level. Internally, he has strengthened the relationship between the Russian State and the Russian Orthodox Church and brought the Church into his sphere in much the same way that the Czars, and even the Soviets, did during their time in power. He has cast the conflict with rebels in Chechnya and Dageistan as a battle against Islam itself, for example, and portrayed his support of the Assad regime in Syria as part of an effort to protect the Syrian Christian community. The fact that this is all smoke and mirrors, as it would appear many Russians recognize, seems to have utterly escaped the notice of American conservatives like Carson. In no small part, of course, this is because accepting Putin’s criticism and his claimed support for Christians in Russia and elsewhere at face value gives them support for the otherwise absurd argument that America under President Obama is becoming “hostile” to Christians and that the President himself is not a genuine Christian, something that has been part of the standard conservative attack against him since he was first running for President. If they need to praise a dictator who quite obviously is only using religion to enhance his own power at home and abroad, then that’s what they’ll do.

This idea of utilizing Putin to attack President Obama isn’t limited to people like Buchanan, Dreher, or Carson. Consider, for example, this from Victor Davis Hanson:


[T]here is a value for us in Putin. I don’t mean the strange Pat Buchanan-style admiration for Putin’s creepy reactionary social agenda and his tirades about Western social decadence. Rather, I refer to Putin’s confidence in his unabashedly thuggish means, the brutal fashion in which a modern state so unapologetically embraces the premodern mind to go after its critics, be they journalists or academics, or stifles free debate without worry over Western censure. Putin is a mirror showing more than just what we should not be.

We in the West get into fiery debates over civil union versus gay marriage as the appropriate legal means of recognizing homosexual unions, with all the accompanying charges of insensitivity — without much notice of how the vast majority of gays are treated elsewhere in the world. In contrast, Putin, mostly to global silence, does nothing as his thugs with impunity terrorize gay activists (who mostly demonstrate for basic freedom of speech, not marriage). Miley Cyrus insults our sensibilities and becomes fabulously rich; the Pussy Rioters go to jail.

(…)

Again, what is Putin? He is a constant reminder to the postmodern Western mind that the human condition has not yet evolved beyond the fist. He is a bumper-sticker example of Aristotle’s dictum that it is easy to be moral in your sleep, given that verbiage without power is hardly moral or difficult. He is also a reminder about what is important in the most elemental sense. As we debate former New York mayor Michael Bloomberg’s remonstrances on oversized Cokes or Michelle Obama’s advocacy of celery sticks, Putin has dogs shot down to spruce up the Olympic grounds. We calibrate to the point of paralysis just how large a carbon footprint the Keystone Pipeline may or may not have; Putin ignores the Arctic tundra to enrich kleptomaniac Russian oligarchs and prop up his dysfunctional state.

Bare-chested Putin gallops his horses, poses with his tigers, and shoots his guns — what Obama dismisses as “tough-guy schtick.” Perhaps. But Putin is almost saying, “You have ten times the wealth and military power that I have, but I can neutralize you by my demonic personality alone.” Barack Obama, in his increasingly metrosexual golf get-ups and his prissy poses on the nation’s tony golf courses, wants to stay cool while playing a leisure sport. It reminds us of Stafford Cripps being played by Stalin during World War II. “Make no mistake about it” and “Let me be perfectly clear” lose every time. Obama’s subordinates violate the law by going after the communications of a Fox reporter’s parents; Putin himself threatens to cut off the testicles of a rude journalist.

For Hanson, then, Putin is to be , well I guess you’d say admired, because he confirms the ongoing conservative meme of Barack Obama as a weak and ineffectual leader when it comes to foreign policy and world affairs. Not only that, but Putin, with his obviously staged photo ops involving shirtless horseback riding and hunting, is supposedly some paragon of manliness compared to Barack Obama who — horror of horrors! — plays golf and has been seen in the past riding around the First Family’s Hawaiian vacation spot on a bicycle with his kids. Putin, then, is to be admired according to Hanson precisely because he plays into the conservative memes about Barack Obama that have been circulating for the past six years or more. The fact that Putin is an autocrat who has jailed his opponents, used massive force to utterly destroy the city of Grozny during the war in Chechnya, and continues to employ policies that clearly violate human rights is to be ignored, or at least admired because he “gets things done.” If it weren’t such a ridiculous parody of the way that the far left viewed Stalin in the 30s, it would almost be worth the time it would take to seriously fisk Hanson’s argument here. As it stands, it’s quite obvious that Hanson is among those on the right who views Putin positively because he helps to confirm their absurd alternative biography, if not outright insulting stereotypes, about the President of the United States.

Closing out the latest examples of the bizarre conservative love affair with the leader of Russia, William Lind is out with a piece at The American Conservative praising the role Russia is playing in world affairs:


Under President Vladimir Putin, Russia is emerging once more as the leading conservative power. As we witnessed in Russia’s rescue of President Obama from the corner into which he had painted himself on Syria, the Kremlin is today, as theNew York Times reports, “Establishing Russia’s role in world affairs not based on the dated Cold War paradigm but rather on its different outlook, which favors state sovereignty and status quo stability over the spread of Western-style democracy.”

In his own Times op-ed on Syria, Putin wrote, “It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Is it in America’s long-term interest? I doubt it.” Sen. Robert A. Taft and Russell Kirk also doubted it.



Moscow appears to understand better than Washington that the driving foreign-policy requirement of the 21st century is the preservation of the state in the face of Fourth Generation war waged by non-state entities, such as those fighting on the rebels’ side in Syria. Russia has rightly upbraided Washington for destroying states, including Iraq and Libya.

(…)

The world has turned upside down. America, condemning and even attacking other countries to push “democracy” and Jacobinical definitions of human rights, is becoming the leader of the international Left. Russia is reasserting her historic role as leader of the international Right. This is a reversal of historic importance. American foreign policy should be based on America’s interests, not on affinity for any foreign power. But putting America first does not require being hostile to Russia or anyone else. On the contrary: American conservatives should welcome the resurgence of a conservative Russia.

I’ve been critical of many of President Obama’s foreign policy choices myself over the past five years, including things like the intervention in Libya, the seemingly indiscriminate expansion of the Drone War, and the President’s aborted efforts last summer to take military action against Syria over the apparent use of chemical weapons in that nation’s civil war. In some of these situations, such as Libya and Syria, Russia has indeed played a role in blocking the U.S. from creating an international coalition in factor of intervention in the conflicts at issue. However, it’s important to recognize that, in doing so, Putin was not acting as some kind of conservative force in world politics, he was acting to tweak the nose of the United States, because he could, and to advance the interests of the Russian state. In Syria in particular, Russia sees Syria as the last real link to its old sphere of influence under the Soviet Union, and the port that the Syrians have provided for Russian use on the Mediterranean stands as the last real international outpost of that era left on the planet.  Putin’s foreign policy, then, has nothing to do with some “conservative” value about preserving stability. Instead it has everything to do with advancing Russia’s interests as he sees them while simultaneously doing everything possible to undermine American efforts around the globe. The fact that conservatives like Lind don’t see that seems to be just another example of the extent to which their disdain for President Obama blinds their judgment in so many other areas.

There’s one theme, then, that resonates through all the positive pieces we’ve seen from the right about Vladimir Putin. In the end, it all comes down to undermining and criticizing the current occupant of the White House. The fact that it also means heaping praise upon a former Communist and KGB agent is apparently something that many on the right are quite comfortable with.

headhuntersix

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 12:58:30 PM »
I think any love affair with this guy is way overblown. I think people admire a strong leader...he's still ex KGB and a piece of shit. After all you leftists honestly have more in common with this socialist piece of shit then we do. I admire the fact that their guy isn't a pansy while our guy comes off like a pole smoker. Plus the lib press gushed over this guy during the Olympics when plenty of conservative sites where like WTF. I would still welcome the chance to put a 120MM SABOT through his left eyeball at 3000 meters.
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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 01:00:19 PM »
Fuck no...this has NOTHING to do with us, nor does it in any way threaten the united states or its citizens, and would only make the situation vastly worse and engender more global hatred for the US.

from what i can gather, this is about keeping oil prices lower for buyers in europe, who are our buddies.

they don't want to put their own troops in harms way in ukraine.

Mccain: "We are all ukranians" = bordering on senility now.  War ain't free lol.

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 01:02:33 PM »
from what i can gather, this is about keeping oil prices lower for buyers in europe, who are our buddies.

they don't want to put their own troops in harms way in ukraine.

Mccain: "We are all ukranians" = bordering on senility now.  War ain't free lol.

McCain hasn't seen a war he didn't like

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 01:04:26 PM »
McCain hasn't seen a war he didn't like

He has excellent judgment.  Remember when he pointed out the person who knew more about Energy than anyone else in the entire country.  It wasn't some idiot MIT grad with a phD or some highly experienced nuclear physicist somewhere... it was a person who had attended 4 or 5 community colleges earning a journalism degree.  For someone like myself, BS in elementary ed (among other degrees), it gave me a lot of hope.  One day I'd like to know more about Hungarian literature or venus flytrap root systems than anyone in the USA, and based upon this precedent - I can.  

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2014, 01:04:56 PM »
He lost me a looooooooooooooooong time ago. If this guy had been a grunt instead of a pilot I think his experience's would have led him to a different place. I don't know how you're a POW and then want to fight in every war that comes down the pike. I'll say this..he hates the Russians...hates em bad.  
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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2014, 01:16:32 PM »
Again, this situation has nothing go do with the united states or its safety...and getting involved-much less sending american troops- will only make the situation much worse.

America needs to stop worrying so much about everyone else's border and focus on OUR OWN FUCKING BORDER. the mexican border represents a much greater threat to the nation and its people than the border of Ukraine does.

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2014, 01:23:54 PM »
We have treaty obligations in the region. We have those treaties to ensure things like trade routes and other economic interests. If we start ignoring things like this, it will get worse. At some point we could be facing adventurism on a NATO ally, and then there will be war. Better to stop him here with some sanctions and get a workable deal done then kick the can down the road. None of which involves troops now.

The border is a joke. The dems have no concept of border security. Obama is not interested in his foreign policy obligations nor Constitutional responsibilities at home.
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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2014, 01:24:43 PM »
He has excellent judgment.    

Perhaps in foreign relation. In domestic policies he is a disaster. That moron believes in amnesty. I bet he would like open borders but won't dare to go that far. With every year in Washington he keeps straying away from conservatism.

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2014, 01:27:55 PM »
USA is not sending any troops. That is a given.

Sanction is the name of the game at this point.


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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2014, 01:41:22 PM »
Diplomacy is fine and good. All the threats and empty rhetoric and the discussions of getting involved militarily and sending troops/military forces are what is stupid.

This is why the ideology of getting involved everywhere and having binding treaties with everyone all over the world is a bad idea. America has the means and ability of being virtually self sufficient. There is nothing in Ukraine, or syria, or libya, etc...that we need bad enough to commit ourselves through treaties to sending americans to fight and die for. Especially not to fight on their behalf or to preserve their borders/sovereignty. This kind of internationalism/web of binding treaties is what led to both world wars as well as countless other conflicts. This is exactly the kind of thing washington and most of the founding fathers warned against and wanted america to avoid.

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2014, 01:58:22 PM »
I've heard a lot of "Obama sucks!" about this Russian mess... About ten of those threads now.  Maybe fifteen.

So what's the answer?   I'm not asking, "What did obama do wrong?"...  I'm asking what the solution to this mess is.

Russians are in there... do we send in our own troops?  And if so, WHY?  Cause oil prices are affected by who puts in a puppet regime into Ukraine?  

I would hope that would not be needed, but if it is then the answer is YES, as our word (our promise) was given in 1994 by Bill Clinton that we would do so via the 1994 Budapest memorandum. The agreement sees signatories promise to protect Ukraine's borders, It was signed by Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma in 1994. Putin is doing a land grab, and he wont stop at the Crimea if no one stops him, the rest of Ukraine will be next.

You make a promise you keep it.  


The Budapest Memorandum was signed in 1991 by Bill Clinton, John Major, Boris Yeltsin and Leonid Kuchma - the then-rulers of the USA, UK, Russia and Ukraine. It promises to protect Ukraine's borders, in return for Ukraine giving up its nuclear weapons

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2570335/Former-British-Ambassador-Moscow-warns-Russia-invaded-Ukraine-difficult-avoid-going-war.html



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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2014, 02:02:26 PM »
You can't renege on international treaties. We took the one thing that would prevent an invasion away from them in exchange for protection. We're not sending troops anyway.

But you default on the small shit, it emboldens people like the Chinese to maybe try for those Jap islands they want. We're not running out on the Japs...Congress would force Obama's hand and it would be the shortest impeachment trial in history. It would a race between what would happen first...a carrier getting to japan or Obama packing his shit and vacating the whitehouse. This can all be avoided if Obama appears strong on the little stuff.
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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2014, 02:10:07 PM »
You can't renege on international treaties. We took the one thing that would prevent an invasion away from them in exchange for protection. We're not sending troops anyway.

But you default on the small shit, it emboldens people like the Chinese to maybe try for those Jap islands they want. We're not running out on the Japs...Congress would force Obama's hand and it would be the shortest impeachment trial in history. It would a race between what would happen first...a carrier getting to japan or Obama packing his shit and vacating the whitehouse. This can all be avoided if Obama appears strong on the little stuff.

England also agreed and signed the 1994 budapest memorandum, so now is the time to keep the agreement, and if Putin cuts off the gas to England then so be it, a promise is a promise, now its time to do what is needed before its too late, and if that includes troops (which hopefully it wont) then so be it.

You make a promise you keep it. 

headhuntersix

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Re: Should the US send troops into Ukraine?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2014, 02:12:32 PM »
Yeah..the dam Brits barely have a military anymore. The west if fucked. The poles are going to have to do the heavy lifting here. I don't think we have any armor left in Germany.
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